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shocking ignorance of transsexuality.

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    #122
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Why is this an issue? If they want to spend 100k of their own money to make themselves look like men/women, that's up to them. As long as it's not recognised as a disability with the government paying for the operation I really don't care. In terms of discovering that a girlfriend was once male, if I didn't notice the difference by careful examination I doubt I'd care. If however they were hiding their tail between their legs and I'd never noticed, well, that'd make me take an IQ test.


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    #123
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Then it isn't very convincing evidence is it? If people in this situation may not be transsexual, then it isn't very good evidence that people who are male to female transsexuals have a bigger index finger than ring finger.

    Pretty much what it comes down to is:
    Most guys have a bigger ring finger than index finger. And some guys who have a bigger index finger than ring finger go on to change their appearance.

    Is there anything else I need to know before I read these links?
    I think you should read the links when you get the time, and we can discuss things properly then.

    by the way, why do you keep saying change of appearance? a hair cut is a change of appearance, or a change of clothes. transition can't be considered changing your appearance.

    it seems like you don't really know what it means to transition, and I don't mean to be condescending, but is there anything about it you don't understand? I'll be happy to explain anything in particular if you'd like?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    No, I don't think I would.

    well that's kinda insulting. :o


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    #124
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    Links234 wrote: »
    well that's kinda insulting. :o

    If that sort of thing bothers you, it wouldn't be worth your time trying to explain things. The moral Zeitgeist will catch up someday, some lag behind a bit.

    Sad, but true. Don't let it bother you.


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    #125
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Links234 - It's only insulting because you expect everyone to share the same view of gender as you do. Personally, I've not much interest in inhibiting or limiting your desire to change your appearance. This is your choice.


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    #126
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Jakkass, the issue could be dropped if you get me this book for christmas!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion


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    #127
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ I bought this book for myself already in its first paperback edition (Do you want my old one? :pac:)

    I have Christopher Hitchens' much funnier God is not Great also.


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    #128
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Links234 - It's only insulting because you expect everyone to share the same view of gender as you do.
    I've never come across anyone who would say they don't consider me a transsexual, it's not about sharing the same view of gender as me, even the most insulting posters will still consider me trans.

    how would you feel if I said I didn't consider you christian?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Personally, I've not much interest in inhibiting or limiting your desire to change your appearance. This is your choice.

    I'm glad you're not interested in inhibiting or limiting my desire for a haircut. I was thinking bangs, but I'm not sure. maybe I should go dye it?

    but really, why are you continuing to say change of appearance? are you just trying to be annoying?


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    #129
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    And here I had you down as a religious freak disregarding lgbt issues as hearsay and not apart of society in general.


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    #130
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Links234 wrote: »
    I've never come across anyone who would say they don't consider me a transsexual, it's not about sharing the same view of gender as me, even the most insulting posters will still consider me trans.

    By my very definition of it, I would consider someone transsexual if they had changed their appearance from one gender to look like another on a bodily level.
    Links234 wrote: »
    how would you feel if I said I didn't consider you christian?

    Not at all offended. I can hold my own, and I know that I believe in Christ. Therefore I am a Christian.

    If you are confident that you are what you are then what other people define it as shouldn't be an issue.

    I'm fairly sure that some Christians would regard me as not a proper Christian because I believe in theistic evolution. This isn't a problem to me, because I know how deep my relationship with God is.

    Links234 wrote: »
    I'm glad you're not interested in inhibiting or limiting my desire for a haircut. I was thinking bangs, but I'm not sure. maybe I should go dye it?

    Go nuts.
    Links234 wrote: »
    but really, why are you continuing to say change of appearance? are you just trying to be annoying?

    Not at all, this is what I believe it to be. You disagree. In civilised society people often disagree. I disagree with you that's it. Life goes on.

    Likewise I disagree strongly with people who think that God doesn't exist. Life goes on. We don't hate each other, in fact some of my best friends don't believe in God.
    ItsThatManAgain wrote: »
    And here I had you down as a religious freak disregarding lgbt issues as hearsay and not apart of society in general.

    I don't regard LGBT issues as hearsay. I just differ with a lot of people in what I think. There's nothing hearsay about what occurs in the world at large.


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    #131
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Well I'd agree with jackass- it is about changing your physical appearance, because inside your the other gender, that doesnt need changing, just those pesky bits god/Allah/fsm got wrong on the outside!!!


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    #132
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    And you believe God exists based on mans account. I now find your arguments flawed.


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    #133
    Guill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,331 ✭✭✭Guill


    Oh holy feuck,

    After arguing about this last night, i was looking forward to the inevitable new thread, but to see that religion has come into, i'm out.

    :DKeep on Rockin my transexual friends!


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    #134
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ItsThatManAgain wrote: »
    And you believe God exists based on mans account. I now find your arguments flawed.

    If you want to find out more about my beliefs, this isn't the thread to do it. When I get into some of these posts, generally I am the one who gets flak from the mods. I want to make it easy for them, After Hours is a difficult enough forum as it is. I think you'll appreciate the sentiment.

    Please PM me if you have any more questions, I'll be glad to oblige you in a civil and friendly manner of course.
    ItsThatManAgain wrote:
    And here I had you down as a religious freak disregarding lgbt issues as hearsay and not apart of society in general.
    I'd suspect that a lot of people on boards.ie have numerous stereotypes as to who or what I am. I suspect if you met me in person a lot of these would be gone immediately. Perhaps I'm wrong.

    Really, where am I on this issue apart from moderately disagreeing with Links234? - My main point is that anyone is free to do what they wish to themselves, and that in liberty of conscience I am free to recognise this in whatever way is most reasonable to me. Often such issues involve people learning to agree to disagree. I'm quite happy to have Links234 disagree with me, for some reason he isn't too pleased with me disagreeing with him.


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    #135
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jakkass wrote: »
    By my very definition of it, I would consider someone transsexual if they had changed their appearance from one gender to look like another on a bodily level.

    you're quite peculiar, you know that? :)
    I don't really know what to say, I'm only transsexual if I've changed something? does that mean that someone is more transsexual than the next person depending on what changes have occurred, or what additional procedures they have done?

    like, is a man more straight if he's slept with more women?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Not at all, this is what I believe it to be. You disagree. In civilised society people often disagree. I disagree with you that's it. Life goes on.

    well then I just don't understand how you would call the effects of hormone replacement therapy a change of appearance? can you explain this to me? it's not about disagreement, I just genuinely don't understand the logic.

    I mean, if you were to put on a bra and stuffed some toilet paper in there, you would have the appearance of having breasts. that's appearance there, right?

    now, when I undergo HRT, I'm actually going to grow breasts. meaning I develop breasts the same way a cisgender woman develops them, proper mammary development, milk ducts and all. I would even be fully capable of lactating and breastfeeding, there would be no biological differences between my breasts and those of another woman. that's not just appearance, is it?

    so, in what way do you not see there's a difference between appearing to have breasts (like if you stuffed a bra) and actually having breasts?

    help me understand your logic


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    #136
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Links234 wrote: »
    you're quite peculiar, you know that? :)
    I don't really know what to say, I'm only transsexual if I've changed something? does that mean that someone is more transsexual than the next person depending on what changes have occurred, or what additional procedures they have done?

    As for being quite peculiar. I know I am, I embraced it quite a long time ago :)

    Personally as I would see it, what would be the transformation (in appearance) if there were no change occurring.
    Links234 wrote: »
    like, is a man more straight if he's slept with more women?

    I hope not! :pac:
    Links234 wrote: »
    well then I just don't understand how you would call the effects of hormone replacement therapy a change of appearance? can you explain this to me? it's not about disagreement, I just genuinely don't understand the logic.

    You will always be the person you were born as, as I would see it. You may change appearance, but you will always be the same person as you are. There will always be something of you left behind. One cannot change everything.
    Links234 wrote: »
    I mean, if you were to put on a bra and stuffed some toilet paper in there, you would have the appearance of having breasts. that's appearance there, right?

    Absolutely, that's appearance.
    Links234 wrote: »
    now, when I undergo HRT, I'm actually going to grow breasts. meaning I develop breasts the same way a cisgender woman develops them, proper mammary development, milk ducts and all. I would even be fully capable of lactating and breastfeeding, there would be no biological differences between my breasts and those of another woman. that's not just appearance, is it?

    This is also changing bodily appearance and hormonal structure.
    Links234 wrote: »
    so, in what way do you not see there's a difference between appearing to have breasts (like if you stuffed a bra) and actually having breasts?

    The process of actually having breasts as a result of this process, means a change in bodily form and appearance. Whether or not they happen to be functional is an irrelevance as I would see it.


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    #137
    indough
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭indough


    men and women both have breasts. all youd be doing is making our breasts bigger in order to appear like that of a woman

    perhaps you are talking about mammary glands. nt sure that treatment makes you devlop them anyway


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    #138
    Big Pussy Bonpensiero
    Registered Users Posts: 7,776 ✭✭✭Big Pussy Bonpensiero


    I dont get what this thread is about...! Are ye debating whether or not a man is a man if s/he had a sex change? Or are ye debating over whether or not being a TS is wrong/weird?


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    #139
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    THFC: The former, but also whether or not someone can be a woman trapped in a mans body.


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    #140
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    FFS not another one of these threads. TBH I think those who could have been convinced have been. OP, you are just gonna get a load of ignorant sh!te and dance the merry dance until the thread wanes. Then another will be started.


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    #141
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Jakkass wrote: »
    THFC: The former, but also whether or not someone can be a woman trapped in a mans body.

    In all fairness lets stick to whats possible, how the hell could a woman be trapped in a mans body? He'd want to be one huge guy or she would have to be very small.

    How did she get in there in the first place is what i want to know?


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    #142
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jakkass wrote: »
    As for being quite peculiar. I know I am, I embraced it quite a long time ago :)

    Personally as I would see it, what would be the transformation (in appearance) if there were no change occurring.
    well, you go girl ;)

    erm, as much as straight would define a guy who's not yet slept with a woman but wants to and a guy who's slept with one last night, transsexual is how someone identifies. are you meaning to say someone is only transsexual while they are going through their transition? that's an interesting take I'll give you that
    Jakkass wrote: »
    You will always be the person you were born as, as I would see it. You may change appearance, but you will always be the same person as you are. There will always be something of you left behind. One cannot change everything.
    of course I'm the same person!
    I don't know what you think I'm expecting to achieve, but I don't want to become someone else. I spent enough time trying to be someone I wasn't, now I just wanna be me.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    The process of actually having breasts as a result of this process, means a change in bodily form and appearance. Whether or not they happen to be functional is an irrelevance as I would see it.

    ok, so you know among the changes that happen, the body odor completely changes too? that a male to female transsexual will produce female pheromones and skin oils and will smell female.
    do you consider this a change in appearance too?


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    #143
    Lab_Mouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Lab_Mouse


    the tags for this thread alone made it worth clicking on!


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    #144
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Links234 wrote: »
    well, you go girl ;)

    erm, as much as straight would define a guy who's not yet slept with a woman but wants to and a guy who's slept with one last night, transsexual is how someone identifies. are you meaning to say someone is only transsexual while they are going through their transition? that's an interesting take I'll give you that

    The analogy that you've provided is inadequate, as we still haven't solved whether or not people are actually females in males bodies, or males in females bodies to begin with.

    You're working on an assumption that isn't verified.

    I don't see the connection between sexual activity in a male, and transsexuality to be quite honest with you.


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    #145
    6th
    Registered Users Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    If you think transexuals have it bad then spare a thought for ghosts! Some people refuse to believe they even exist!

    Equal rights for ghosts! Give them the vote too ..... after all, we gave it to women ffs!


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    #146
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The analogy that you've provided is inadequate, as we still haven't solved whether or not people are actually females in males bodies, or males in females bodies to begin with.

    You're working on an assumption that isn't verified.

    but it IS verified, there's plenty of scientific evidence that shows it, I've gathered up a load of different links and posted them twice now, directed you towards them 3 times. there's people who seem to know a lot more about biology than me who will say flat out that transsexuality is a fact. it's not a question of if it's verified, it's whether you want to reject that or not?


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    #147
    indough
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭indough


    since when does a few studies saying one thing mean that its been verified?

    anyway why should we care about transexual issues? everybody face there own personal issues in life its sort of arrogant for you to expect the whole world to dance to your tune


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    #148
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    and you know I really don't want to have this debate all the time, I'd rather be talking about shoes


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    #149
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    Links234 wrote: »
    and you know I really don't want to have this debate all the time, I'd rather be talking about shoes

    then go on the shoe forum and stop posting tripe


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    #150
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Time for a little light relief...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW4yAPpEwT0


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    #151
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Links234 wrote: »
    and you know I really don't want to have this debate all the time, I'd rather be talking about shoes

    Then don't. Most of us are quite happy just to agree to disagree.


This discussion has been closed.
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