Winter-proofing Attic? Temp Switch?

Stinicker

Its seems like plumbing but this is an electrical question!

During the big freeze last winter I narrowly diverted disaster in that I just managed to stop my pipes in the attic from freezing (and then potentially bursting!) by running the dimplex heater and blowfan at full power up in the attic and by taking buckets of hot water and feeding it into the tank in the attic and drawing it through the pipes.

I am afraid that we are facing another siberian like winter here this year and am wondering is it possible to get Temperature Power Control Switch? (or whatever would be its correct name?)

Basically what I want is a gadget that would turn on the electricity to my heaters in the attic once the temperature fell below a certain level and would then switch them back off again once a median warmer temperature was reached. My attic is fully floored and has power sockets and is more like the basement I never had and is not your typical Irish attic dumping ground and I can stand up and walk around without joists or timbers in my way!

My plan would be to strategically position the heaters with a temperature gauge so that when the big chill takes grip again these gauges will regulate the air temp in my attic.

A few Euros in Electricity spent heating the attic over 2 to 3 weeks in a potential freeze up is money well spent compared to the thousands from burst pipes, having to maybe rewire and replaster, and maybe ending up getting nothing from the insurance on some technicality.

My attic is so well insulated (the ceiling/floor) that very little heat escapes up from the house underneath (bungalow) since the attic was converted to storage and the house rewired last year and as a result it is a very chilly place, which makes for bad conditions for pipes.

Anyone know of a temp power sensor like I described? Ideally it would be something like a timer switch where I plug the heater into it and then the temp sensor into the socket.

laros

http://www.cnmonline.co.uk/Sunhouse-Tube-Heaters-With-Fitted-Plug-pr-33792.html

Hi
How about something like the above .... they are fairly low wattage and could probably be connected just to a timer and left on most of the time ... I have used them in greenhouse's sheds ect with good results.
Lar

RoundyMooney

Would it not be a simpler matter to insulate the pipework and tanks?

I was toying with the idea of insulating my rafters as well as what was existing above the ceiling, but ended up putting a bedroom and bathroom up there instead and doing away with the tanks altogether, but that's a whole other ballgame.

Running heaters unsupervised in an uninsulated space is both inefficient and unsafe imo.

2011

Running heaters unsupervised in an uninsulated space is both inefficient and unsafe imo.

+1

Heat tracing would be the best solution IMHO, but I am sure it is expensive!

At work the heat trace cable used is self regulating, designed to be used under lagging. It is 20 watts per meter

Stinicker

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Would it not be a simpler matter to insulate the pipework and tanks?

I was toying with the idea of insulating my rafters as well as what was existing above the ceiling, but ended up putting a bedroom and bathroom up there instead and doing away with the tanks altogether, but that's a whole other ballgame.

Running heaters unsupervised in an uninsulated space is both inefficient and unsafe imo.

The pipes are insulated with that foam around them and are under the foorboards of the attic where the fibreglass isulation is, however they still almost froze last year as there is a pipe from the water tank running under the floorboards (3/4" plywood) to the Electric Shower and this actually froze almost solid (a bit like a blocked artery it was almost blocked) and the shower could not draw water or run. I added in several gallons of warm water to the tank and managed to draw the warmer water through which defrosted the pipe.

When it gets cold enough no insulation will be good enough when you have several days of sub-zero temperatures, having increased the insulation and floored the attic in 2009 with plywood it dramatically cut heat loss from the lower level underneath to the attic above. I had about an 3/4" of ice in the water tank last year so it gets frosty up there and the only solution to avert disaster when the polar express comes in again this winter is to heat it to above freezing so this won't happen!

meercat

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056066638&highlight=frost+watcher

http://www.compare.ie/thumbnail.php?f=upload/products/464/2/1622002.jpg&w=90&h=90

link to previous thread for an automatic frost watcher and image of one

danjo

OP, was the house heated during the period or was it unoccupied? Heard of some water supplies freezing in attics of holiday homes etc. but I would have thought that a central heating system on for an hour a day or so would give enough heat to protect the pipes especially if they are insulated.

Maybe I am totally wrong. Anyone else have any opinions.

Stinicker

danjo wrote: »

OP, was the house heated during the period or was it unoccupied? Heard of some water supplies freezing in attics of holiday homes etc. but I would have thought that a central heating system on for an hour a day or so would give enough heat to protect the pipes especially if they are insulated.

Maybe I am totally wrong. Anyone else have any opinions.

The house was occupied for the entirety of the big freeze with the Oil Range on 4-5 hours a day and open fire with back boiler from morning to late at night. As I say the attic is very well insulated and hardly any heat escapes up there. Were it not for having us living in the house most of the pipes would have frozen solid and burst.

It was only through chance refilling the water tank with a neighbours garden hose from their private supply (as our Council supply had frozen solid leaving the whole locality without water) that we spotted the very low temperatures in the attic and when we spotted the shower not working that we took action by plugging in a dimplex and blow heater on a timer and kept the attic above 15°c for the rest of the big freeze up.

Our other older house (which was unoccupied and unheated) was less than lucky and the moment we turned back on the water after the thaw came there was leaks everywhere and a lot of damage would have occured had I not turned off the water there during the freeze up as I partially guessed that would occur.

So far this year we have spent about €2,000 in the repair costs to pipes in the old house and by sinking down the mains water pipe from about 2 or 3 feet deep to 1.5metres so that we won't lose supply on our end as was our initial fear of frozen stop valves. We spent two weeks without water this January and it was a sheer nuisance. Another €1,000 is being spent at the moment on installing Oil heating into the old unoccupied house which was previously solid fuel so that it will also survive the coming mini iceage intact.

I still haven't decided on what to do for frost prevention in the attic but will figure out something once I speak to my electricians and plumbers. Thanks for all the suggestions and any input is more than welcome!

danjo

Stinicker,

That was an awful experience and a costly one too. Easy to see why you are looking for solutions. I guess because your house is so well insulated that the attic does not get any appreciable heat. Have you thought of leaving the attic access panel slightly open ? Not very efficient but it may help particularly at night. Also make sure there is no insulation under your water tanks so at least they can get some rising heat.
A frost stat will provide a means of switching on a heater when the temperature drops. Make sure if you do decide to go this route that the rating on the switch is more than sufficient for the heating source current.

Best of luck this year,

danjo

Stinicker

To update the thread, I can report that my money invested this year has borne great dividends in surviving the current mini ice age; In warmer temperatures last January we had lost water much quicker, I still have water now where the rest of the village has none, matter of fact loads of neighbours were around to mine filling up containers for drinking water at my outside tap.

I didn't get around to installing anything fancy in my attic yet, but have the Dimplex on a timer for a few hours a night and despite this the pipe from the Header tank to the electric shower froze. It was -12 last night and it froze again so I pumped hot water from the bath up to the header tank (after shutting of the mains inlet to it) this warmer water in the header tank fed through to thaw out the shower pipe. I have a pump and some garden hose so it was a 15min job.

Today I shut off the outlet valve from the header tank going to the shower and drew the water out of the pipe by running the shower until dry, thus preventing it having the opportunity to freeze within the pipe again. I have a huge attic so it is hard to heat it all, without having several heaters running together which I did last January.

My older house that I mentioned earlier in the thread is now toasty warm in -15c weather now with Oil central heating installed and working great and not a burst pipe or water shortage in sight.

My main area of success is with keeping my mains supply going and by sinking the mains pipe connection (shut-off valve) to the council pipe this year down to 1.5 metres has kept it from freezing. I actually entombed the whole thing in rebar reinforced concrete to give the Fianna Fail metering guys nightmares also! and fitted my own secondary shut-off valves on my property. This way I have made my connection frost proof and hopefully water-meter proof also! Thus I am one of the few locally with water, the rest having wells and private supplies.

The councils (whom the FF developers bribed out) made no attempt to enforce building codes during the boom and thus thousands of householders have no water in what is still rather mild winter conditions. The water flows in Northern Canada and Alaska at -50c to householders and regulary in Europe at -30c. Greater than -10 for 2 or 3 days and Ireland falls apart. The worst effected in this cold snap are people stuck in estates built during the boom in their shoe boxes built to standards that lada would have been proud of.

The chickens have come home to roost this weather on shoddy construction by cowboys during the "Celtic rip-off era".

BostonB

Can only agree, shoddy building, very poorly regulated.

Bruthal

Stinicker wrote: »

I pumped hot water from the bath up to the header tank (after shutting of the mains inlet to it) this warmer water in the header tank fed through to thaw out the shower pipe. I have a pump and some garden hose so it was a 15min job.

I did the same thing today after my header tank mains feed froze and then the tank emptied, but i blocked off the end of the mixer tap in the kitchen, and turned on the hot tap, then the cold both at the mixer. This uses the mains pressure to force water into the header tank from the hot water cylinder and filled it up that way while keeping an eye on the level. I had the water warm in the cylinder. So it filled it up and thaw`d out the mains feed which seemed to be just frozen where it entered the ballcock valve.

And now leave the attic door open to help stop them re freezing.

Bruthal

Stinicker wrote: »

The chickens have come home to roost this weather on shoddy construction by cowboys during the "Celtic rip-off era".

They would probably prefer to roost out in their own coop than in these houses.

DublinDilbert

Have no issues so far, but if I did I would get one of the electric underfloor heating mats. Pop some of it under the header tank and unravel the element under the insulation on the pipes. Stick on a timer for an hour a day and you'll be grand...

Bruthal

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Have no issues so far, but if I did I would get one of the electric underfloor heating mats. Pop some of it under the header tank and unravel the element under the insulation on the pipes. Stick on a timer for an hour a day and you'll be grand...

I had attic tank mains feed frozen, empty tank, frozen feed to t90 shower, great fun yesterday. All sorted now though.

danjo-xx

robbie7730 wrote: »

I had attic tank mains feed frozen, empty tank, frozen feed to t90 shower, great fun yesterday. All sorted now though.

What exactly did you do, hair dryer?

Bruthal

danjo-xx wrote: »

What exactly did you do, hair dryer?

I sealed up the end of the mixer taps at the kitchen sink, then turned on the hot tap, then the cold. The cold tap at kitchen sinks is mains fed so turning it on now diverted it up the now open hot tap and forced water from the hot water cylinder into the attic tank.

I then got into attic and when tank was near full i went down and turned off the taps, cold first then hot. I had hot water in the hot water cylinder so this thawed out the attic tank and the mains pipe into it. I also then left attic door fully open which thaw`d out the frozen shower feed.

Bruthal

An extra radiator from the central heating system might work for keeping attics frost free. Just put them on if cold weather is expected or has suddenly happened.

danjo-xx

robbie7730 wrote: »

I sealed up the end of the mixer taps at the kitchen sink, then turned on the hot tap, then the cold. The cold tap at kitchen sinks is mains fed so turning it on now diverted it up the now open hot tap and forced water from the hot water cylinder into the attic tank.

I then got into attic and when tank was near full i went down and turned off the taps, cold first then hot. I had hot water in the hot water cylinder so this thawed out the attic tank and the mains pipe into it. I also then left attic door fully open which thaw`d out the frozen shower feed.

That's really handy to know, I suppose the same would work with non mixer taps by using a piece of hose from one tap to the other, like they do to clear air locks.

Roughly how long would you have left it running in your case.

Bruthal

danjo-xx wrote: »

That's really handy to know, I suppose the same would work with non mixer taps by using a piece of hose from one tap to the other, like they do to clear air locks.

Roughly how long would you have left it running in your case.

Yes thats exactly what you do when its 2 taps, then on with hot first, because the mains pressure can pop the hose or blocking item off the tap when nowhere to go. And cold off first when finished.

It took about 10 minutes to fill up i think. I usually use this method for clearing air locks. But works well for filling attic tank when mains frozen.

danjo-xx

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what you do when its 2 taps, then on with hot first, because the mains pressure can pop the hose or blocking item off the tap when nowhere to go. And cold off first when finished.

It took about 10 minutes to fill up i think. I usually use this method for clearing air locks. But works well for filling attic tank when mains frozen.

that is great to know and thanks a milllion for passing that on, really appreciate it.