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Child Support-Please read

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13

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    #62
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    But you went off on what ifs. Your whole advice is based on what if assumptions.

    No it was based on the facts which he provided in his opening post.

    Never seeing adults/parents argue can be a negative thing for a child,
    it means they can grow up and have no idea who to deal with confrontation and conflict resolution,
    or how to compromise.


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    #63
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Fittle wrote: »
    And I can say that my own son is probably a much more well-rounded kid, because his dad isn't involved (he's never heard us argue etc). We all know cases like this, where hindsight is invaluable, but ultimately, the child has been rejected by their father, no matter how much arguing would have gone on between the parents.

    I was watching Oprah yesterday (I'd a day off:)) and there was a guy on who was discussing his own, crazy childhood (beatings and abuse were the norm, his mother shot his step-dad in front of him), but he said himself that if somebody tried to remove him from the home, he would have fought tooth and nail to stay. Because ultimately, no matter how bad the arguing is - all young children have a need in them to know, and be loved by both parents (my own son included:()

    This post isn't about him rejecting his child though - it's also not about him wanting to ensure the child is financially provided for - it's about him wanting proof that he's still trying to pay the maintenance.

    Right. He's not asking for strategies on how to re enter the child's life or contact the mother or locate any of them. He walked away. Maybe they were justifiable reasons, maybe the weren't. No one here can know that. It's all speculation. Maybe they were young and it was stupid avoidable reasons but seemed insurmountable at the time. Maybe its tragic miscommunications. Who knows.

    He just wants to know about how to secure the maintennce so he is legally covered. Thats what he asked for and then everyone projected their own crap onto him. I think he should go to the court and ask the judge what he should do.


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    #64
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Fittle wrote: »
    And I can say that my own son is probably a much more well-rounded kid, because his dad isn't involved (he's never heard us argue etc). We all know cases like this, where hindsight is invaluable, but ultimately, the child has been rejected by their father, no matter how much arguing would have gone on between the parents.
    You seem intent never to even attempt to view it from the other perspective, but to simply damn the father, regardless of circumstances.

    For the fourth time, I would ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a man in such a situation; The law is of no use. Your access is limited or negligible and potentially more disruptive than beneficial. The constant conflict (where you have no hope of winning) is destroying any chance at normality in your life - or even taking its toll on your health. You're getting nowhere. You're at this stage causing more harm than good. There is no solution.

    What would you do? Is there a reason you cannot or will not reply?


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    #65
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    No it was based on the facts which he provided in his opening post.

    Never seeing adults/parents argue can be a negative thing for a child,
    it means they can grow up and have no idea who to deal with confrontation and conflict resolution,
    or how to compromise.

    He's seen me argue with plenty of adults. Just not with his father.


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    #66
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You seem intent never to even attempt to view it from the other perspective, but to simply damn the father, regardless of circumstances.

    For the fourth time, I would ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a man in such a situation; The law is of no use. Your access is limited or negligible and potentially more disruptive than beneficial. The constant conflict (where you have no hope of winning) is destroying any chance at normality in your life - or even taking its toll on your health. You're getting nowhere. You're at this stage causing more harm than good. There is no solution.

    What would you do? Is there a reason you cannot or will not reply?

    I don't remember 'damning the father'? I said that he walked away and in my opinion, he shouldn't have.

    The OP, in this instance did not disclose enough information to warrant you saying that his life was destroyed, he had lost any chance of normality and his health was suffering.

    He should have stayed in contact. That's what I would have done. If he loved the child, he would have gone to ends of the earth to keep in contact. Whether that be through a family member, by sending the child cards for birthdays - anything. Just maintain any level of contact even if it's to ensure the safety of your child. He knows where his child lives.

    He walked away.

    I am not saying that there aren't situations where women make it unbearable for men to stick around - of course there are. But most of those men stick around DESPITE the unbearable situation.

    I would die for my child. If someone said to me, right, for him to live, you have to die, I wouldn't even bat an eyelid. And I would assume that all parents feel this way about their children. But some don't. Some blame the other parent for making it difficult for them to stay. When the reality is, those that weren't that interested in the first place, walk away.

    Those that were interested and feel like most parents do about their children, stick around and put up with the arguing for the sake of the child.

    Think about it.

    You have a child. The mother is telling the child you're evil. And you decide to walk away??? How could anyone walk away from their child after 6 years of parenting because the mother was making life difficult for them?? How??


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    #67
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Fittle wrote: »
    I would die for my child. If someone said to me, right, for him to live, you have to die, I wouldn't even bat an eyelid.
    Would you give up your child if it meant they would have a better future?
    You have a child. The mother is telling the child you're evil. And you decide to walk away??? How could anyone walk away from their child after 6 years of parenting because the mother was making life difficult for them?? How??
    How about you try viewing it from the man's perspective, as I have repeatedly asked, and you might figure it out. I set out the scenario and you've yet to address it.

    Why are you refusing to do so?


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    #68
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    I am not a man, so how the hell can I see it from a mans perspective? No more than you can see it from a woman's perspective.
    Nor am I a father, so I can't see it from that perspective either.

    But I AM a parent - so that's the only perspective I'm seeing this from. A parents perspective.

    And as a parent, even if the other parent had made my life very difficult, I would still stick around to see my child. I wouldn't decide one day, after 6yrs of being a parent, hey, I don't really want to do this anymore.


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    #69
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Fittle wrote: »
    I am not a man, so how the hell can I see it from a mans perspective? No more than you can see it from a woman's perspective.
    Nor am I a father, so I can't see it from that perspective either.
    That's a serious cop out, because you are not even trying to see it from another perspective. Only your own.

    Imagine then, as a woman, that you don't have custody (though no fault of your own), access is being obstructed and the courts are not doing anything to enforce it.

    Your access is limited or negligible and potentially more disruptive than beneficial. The constant conflict (where you have no hope of winning) is destroying any chance at normality in your life - or even taking its toll on your health. You're getting nowhere. You're at this stage causing more harm than good. There is no solution.

    Can you make the stretch now?
    And as a parent, even if the other parent had made my life very difficult, I would still stick around to see my child. I wouldn't decide one day, after 6yrs of being a parent, hey, I don't really want to do this anymore.
    But you're not seeing your child. You don't get anywhere near your child. If you do, you have so few rights that, you can even get arrested for approaching your child. What is so difficult about understanding that?

    We're not discussing someone who is seeing their child and thus should stick around - naturally he should. We're discussing someone who is being prevented from seeing their child to the point that it is so haphazard as to be bad for the child.

    I note also you went quiet on my question as to whether you would you give up your child if it meant they would have a better future?


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    #70
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    I'm ignoring alot of what you write, because you continue to question me about my opinions. This post isn't about me and you, and I don't have to answer your questions. This is the internet...this is about the OP's original post.


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    #71
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Fittle wrote: »
    I'm ignoring alot of what you write, because you continue to question me about my opinions. This post isn't about me and you, and I don't have to answer your questions. This is the internet...this is about the OP's original post.
    Don't be ridiculous - you responded to the OP's original post on the basis of your opinions, so of course they're part of the discussion now.

    Even your assessment of the OP's motivations are simply opinionated and subject to question. After all, if he was really disinterested in being involved in his child's life, why did he wait six years? Guys who aren't interested don't stick around. They don't bother with access. They're gone, never to be heard of again, before the child is often even born.

    You seem intent on refusing to see any perspective other than your own. You simply flatly refuse to countenance it, despite the fact that numerous other people have pointed out that things are not as simple as the black and white view you've presented. Why?


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    #72
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    The bigger question is why you continue to ask me why, when I've already said this isn't about me answering your questions:rolleyes:


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    #73
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    It has been documented that being unable to be a part of your child's lilfe can cause parental separated depression.

    Fittle can you honestly not see that it is possible for a custodial parent to make it so difficult that the non custodial parent gives up and looses hope?


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    #74
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It has been documented that being unable to be a part of your child's lilfe can cause parental separated depression.

    Fittle can you honestly not see that it is possible for a custodial parent to make it so difficult that the non custodial parent gives up and looses hope?

    Of course it can cause depression.

    Look, I just know how much I love MY child, and I know that no matter how difficult anyone made it for me to see him, I would continue to try till the day I die. I would not walk away. Never. I'm sure you would do the same Thaedyl.

    So I guess the honest answer is that yes I believe there are women who make it very difficult for the fathers of their children to see them, but that no, I can't understand how the other parent gives up (this doesn't include those that you mention above, who may be ill due to parental seperated depression).

    Particularly, in the OP's case, when he said he was her parent for six years, and then he appears delighted that she has found herself a new daddy:rolleyes:


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    #75
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Fittle wrote: »
    The bigger question is why you continue to ask me why, when I've already said this isn't about me answering your questions:rolleyes:
    I already answered that, so it's probably one of the responses you're ignoring.
    Fittle wrote: »
    Look, I just know how much I love MY child, and I know that no matter how difficult anyone made it for me to see him, I would continue to try till the day I die. I would not walk away. Never.
    But what if your involvement was such that it caused more harm than good? I've asked this before, to deafening silence from you, because this is ultimately the situation that a father can find himself in.
    I can't understand how the other parent gives up
    How can you understand, when it's evident that you don't actually want to understand?

    How can anyone pretend to want to co-parent when they aren't interested in understanding the other parent?


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    #76
    Butterflylove
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Butterflylove


    Fittle

    To be honest your little man hasnt been stuck in a constand battle between you and his father, my brother backed off as he could see the agruements and fighting were upsetting his son. But never gave up trying to see him, things didnt get that bad.

    You say you would die for your child, some men see this excatly the same when it comes to the time they decided enough is enough and fade into the back ground.

    I know if I was in a relationship with someone I would walk away from it, if all it was, was constand fighting and arguments. I know a child is different but you dont want to see them hurting or in pain.

    I honestly feel if some parents cant work it out and its just fighting all the time, something the child shouldnt be around, then yes the best thing would be for one to back off if there is no way to try and change the situation, I think it shows they are been the bigger person and taking something that is toxic out of their kids lives, to take a step back keeping up with payments and try again in a few months when feelings may have died down if they ever do, if not then back off untill they are welcomed back.

    The only think I can think of towards the OP and the new daddy, is that he happy she has more of a stable relationship and she is been looked after, since he is no longer able too.


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    #77
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    Butterflylove wrote: »
    Fittle

    To be honest your little man hasnt been stuck in a constand battle between you and his father, my brother backed off as he could see the agruements and fighting were upsetting his son. But never gave up trying to see him, things didnt get that bad.

    You say you would die for your child, some men see this excatly the same when it comes to the time they decided enough is enough and fade into the back ground.

    I know if I was in a relationship with someone I would walk away from it, if all it was, was constand fighting and arguments. I know a child is different but you dont want to see them hurting or in pain.

    I honestly feel if some parents cant work it out and its just fighting all the time, something the child shouldnt be around, then yes the best thing would be for one to back off if there is no way to try and change the situation, I think it shows they are been the bigger person and taking something that is toxic out of their kids lives, to take a step back keeping up with payments and try again in a few months when feelings may have died down if they ever do, if not then back off untill they are welcomed back.

    The only think I can think of towards the OP and the new daddy, is that he happy she has more of a stable relationship and she is been looked after, since he is no longer able too.

    Yes, I completely agree with what you are saying in your second paragraph. But the OP walked away 4yrs ago. I also see that your brother never gave up trying to see his child - and that's what I'm talking about. The 'giving-up' bit. No matter how difficult it gets for the adult (parent), can you imagine how difficult it gets for the child, to 'lose' their father after 6yrs???? Your brother never gave up. And that's what any decent person, calling themselves a parent, should also do. Not give up.


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    #78
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Butterflylove wrote: »
    Fittle

    To be honest your little man hasnt been stuck in a constand battle between you and his father, my brother backed off as he could see the agruements and fighting were upsetting his son. But never gave up trying to see him, things didnt get that bad.

    You say you would die for your child, some men see this excatly the same when it comes to the time they decided enough is enough and fade into the back ground.

    I know if I was in a relationship with someone I would walk away from it, if all it was, was constand fighting and arguments. I know a child is different but you dont want to see them hurting or in pain.

    I honestly feel if some parents cant work it out and its just fighting all the time, something the child shouldnt be around, then yes the best thing would be for one to back off if there is no way to try and change the situation, I think it shows they are been the bigger person and taking something that is toxic out of their kids lives, to take a step back keeping up with payments and try again in a few months when feelings may have died down if they ever do, if not then back off untill they are welcomed back.

    The only think I can think of towards the OP and the new daddy, is that he happy she has more of a stable relationship and she is been looked after, since he is no longer able too.

    I hear this quite a bit but from the same people who didnt even try counselling or mediation with the other parent.

    But if you backed away and you were the mother of the child, you would be called a parental alienator, yadda yadda.


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    #79
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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    #80
    Butterflylove
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Butterflylove


    My brother didnt give up because he didnt have too, she died and my brother got custody he wasnt in his childs life for a year though,

    He would have walked away if meant no more harm would come to his son he loved him so much that he would leave if it meant no more fighting bickering was all his sons life was been based around. Isn't that the reason why people end up getting divcored when they have kids, or splitting up even though they want their child to have mammy and daddy around all the time?

    Im not saying the op was right in what he did but it isnt always the fact they 'abandoned them'. Fighting for your child is all well and good, if in the end it brings happiness this isnt always the case as I stated with my sister my niece had to take it into her hands and say enough is enough and chose not to see her Dad.

    'try counselling or mediation with the other parent' this isnt always possible one could believe they are completely in the right with what they are doing and will not listen to reason my brother took his ex to the courts to try and force her into this as he couldnt be without his child, courts decided it wasnt in the best interest of the child to 'force' the mother.


    Also I would just like to add that my brothers ex couldnt deal with my brother fighting her for their son, that she commited suicide it all became to much and felt she couldn't go back and sort it out my nephew has been with out since he was four. So yes I do understand how difficult it can be for a child to just 'lose' a parent after been there for years.


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    #81
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    Are you referring to me Thaedydal?


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    #82
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Butterflylove wrote: »
    My brother didnt give up because he didnt have too, she died and my brother got custody he wasnt in his childs life for a year though,

    He would have walked away if meant no more harm would come to his son he loved him so much that he would leave if it meant no more fighting bickering was all his sons life was been based around. Isn't that the reason why people end up getting divcored when they have kids, or splitting up even though they want their child to have mammy and daddy around all the time?

    Im not saying the op was right in what he did but it isnt always the fact they 'abandoned them'. Fighting for your child is all well and good, if in the end it brings happiness this isnt always the case as I stated with my sister my niece had to take it into her hands and say enough is enough and chose not to see her Dad.

    'try counselling or mediation with the other parent' this isnt always possible one could believe they are completely in the right with what they are doing and will not listen to reason my brother took his ex to the courts to try and force her into this as he couldnt be without his child, courts decided it wasnt in the best interest of the child to 'force' the mother.

    Right but mediation and counselling isnt about forcing anything, or even some parenting therapy would have helped them along a bit better. A divorced relationship is no different from a normal one in that regards, sometimes people need outside help, and if you dont find it or use it you cant really walk away saying you did your best, because you didnt.


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    #83
    Butterflylove
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Butterflylove


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Right but mediation and counselling isnt about forcing anything, or even some parenting therapy would have helped them along a bit better. A divorced relationship is no different from a normal one in that regards, sometimes people need outside help, and if you dont find it or use it you cant really walk away saying you did your best, because you didnt.


    Im not saying counselling doesnt help, it helps big time but only if both parents are willing? If a parents is posioning a childs mind already, I doubt they will be willing to head into this. In both family experiences this was the case.

    All I'm saying is that there is certain situations in where this is a last resort and it has been used. Which is fair enough if someone has tried their best and there is still a hostal environment that their child is been placed in, then it is a good thing.

    I just feel strongly on the fact if there is no other solution and everything has been tried and tested, and still failing then fadding into the back ground the best.

    Its better to have a good relationship from afar and when the child is older then to have a bickering, resentful one with no understanding when the child is young,


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    #84
    Fittle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭Fittle


    As an aside butterflylove, how is that child now?

    His mum died and he hadn't seen his dad in over a year? How old was he when that happened?

    How very very sad:(:(. We really don't know how lucky we are sometimes.


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    #85
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    I think this is probably at the root of most of these cases; be it the mother, father or both :(


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    #86
    Butterflylove
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Butterflylove


    Fittle wrote: »
    As an aside butterflylove, how is that child now?

    His mum died and he hadn't seen his dad in over a year? How old was he when that happened?

    How very very sad:(:(. We really don't know how lucky we are sometimes.


    To be honest he's a completely different child to when he was living with his mother, with all the fighting and her mental health, he was a real recluse of a child was extremely shy.
    I have a large family and he came to live with us after it happened it changed him hes more out going and very friendly towards everyone.

    The last time my brother saw him he was turning three by his fourth birthday his mam had already passed away, I was the only family member allowed to see him from two and a half till he was 3 and a half I was he minder while she worked I still rememeber sending pictures on my phone to my brother of his son, its was very hard but it was the best we could manage with her.

    Courts tried not to let my brother have full custody because of the long gag without the child 'knowning him' we took him in as I had been in his life otherwise he would have went to care my brother made sure everyday to 'pop' in so child would get use to him and 2 months later told him who he was and that if he wanted he could go live with him.

    Nephews now 7, its crazy to think when you look at him all he's been through, he still asks about his mam brother tells him all the time about her 'nice stuff', it was hardest day ever when he asked my brother why all the other boys had a mammy and he didnt (mothers day in school)


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    #87
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Also I would just like to add that my brothers ex couldnt deal with my brother fighting her for their son, that she commited suicide it all became to much and felt she couldn't go back and sort it out my nephew has been with out since he was four. So yes I do understand how difficult it can be for a child to just 'lose' a parent after been there for years.[/QUOTE]

    That is awful. Everyone has their limits and can only do what they can manage. Pity there wasnt counselling intervention sooner.

    The child ended up abandoned by a parent in the end.


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    #88
    Butterflylove
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Butterflylove


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    That is awful. Everyone has their limits and can only do what they can manage. Pity there wasnt counselling intervention sooner.

    The child ended up abandoned by a parent in the end.


    It was awful, they tried everything to get her help but she believe she was in the right and was doing everything for the good of her son by keep my brother away when he's the type who wouldnt even hurt a fly.

    Like I said my brother brought her to court to try and get help for everything her father was on my brothers side yet judge saw nothing was wrong or as she put it 'going on'


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    #89
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Butterflylove wrote: »
    It was awful, they tried everything to get her help but she believe she was in the right and was doing everything for the good of her son by keep my brother away when he's the type who wouldnt even hurt a fly.

    Like I said my brother brought her to court to try and get help for everything her father was on my brothers side yet judge saw nothing was wrong or as she put it 'going on'

    I read recently in an English paper [sorry I forgot which one] the English courts are going to make mediation manditory before people go straight into court. I think this makes sense.

    When people are in battle, cortisol pumps through the system and makes us hypersentitive. I remember all through my pregnancy I was jumping and startling at every harmless noise because of the stress I was under. Perhaps her defensiveness exaggerated her fear of your brother.

    I don't know, but the courts failed, the system failed, the parents failed that child and his mother and his father.


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    #90
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Fittle wrote: »
    And I agree with gordon - none of this is the childs fault but I imagine the mother assumes that having not had contact in 4yrs, he's just not interested, so why would she advise him of her number number?
    And what a dangerous assumption with extremely dire ramifications that is.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Yes you would assume this but at the same time she might think he doesn't care or is indifferent and may have written him off.

    Especially if the maintenance is court ordered and hasnt been adjusted in four years it might demonstrate he is fulfilling a legal obligation and that is all he is doing to cover his butt.

    Again, without the facts, this is pure speculation but its important to be open to all possibilities before people start bringing out hanging devices and and start a witch hunt in search for prosecution.

    Do we know that OP has kept his contact details up for example? We assume he has but we dont know that yet.
    Oh of course, dangerous to make assumptions on both sides, I agree there.


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    #91
    Butterflylove
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Butterflylove


    metrovelvet wrote: »

    I don't know, but the courts failed, the system failed, the parents failed that child and his mother and his father.


    Well I dont see how my brother could have failed him, he did all in his powers to try and get things sorted, he bent over backwards to try and make easier for his son. But sure your entitled to your opinion.

    She didnt want my brother near the child because she was confused and not in a right mind, she was only 21.


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