Sold a Faulty laptop 2 years ago, only offering to refund 1/2 the cost, Is that fair?

P. Breathnach

axer wrote: »

A Seller is fully entitled to offer a partial refund when goods have been used for some time before a fault develops. The buyer is fully entitled to reject this but in many cases it is preferable than a replacement especially with something like a laptop.

A seller is entitled to make any proposal to settle a claim. What really counts is whether or not it is reasonable and, if it comes to the crunch, if the courts would deem it reasonable.

The courts will generally accept that any one of repair, replacement, or full refund is reasonable, and it would be silly to refuse any of these and proceed to court, because you would be in serious danger of losing your case.

They might also accept that a part-refund is reasonable where the purchaser has got substantial value out of the purchase, or where the part-refund is sufficient to cover the cost of a replacement (as seems to be the case here). Obviously, there will be difficult calls. Might OP have been persuaded that €400 was enough?

[In fairness, I should tell you that the only time I had a problem with anything bought from Harvey Norman, they responded properly.]

ssmith6287

whiterebel wrote: »

Could you be any more wrong with that post? Maybe you should look up what a consumers entitlements are under law before you repeat that kind of rubbish

Ah, I see from another post on another thread you used to work for Harvey Norman. That explains it.

Completely irrelevant, FYI they are an excellent employer who look after their staff and keep alot of irish people in a job, alot of whom dont work directly for HN.

Just had a read through the rights, couldn't find any section where an out of warranty product should be replaced. I hope your not mixing a warranty and a guarentee up??

BostonB

I think theres a difference between something that breaks and something with a design flaw. Regardless if in or out of warranty.

slimjimmc

BostonB wrote: »

I think theres a difference between something that breaks and something with a design flaw. Regardless if in or out of warranty.

If by "breaks" you mean a manufacturing defect then there's no difference between it and a design defect as far as consumer law is concerned. It comes under the umbrellas of "fit for purpose" and "merchantable quality". You don't even need to have a defect if the item sold to you didn't do what you bought it for (having first explained your requirements before purchase).

If you dropped it or otherwise misused then yes there is a difference and consumer law can't help you there.

BostonB

Let me rephrase that. A design flaw that can't be permanently fixed.

Resale value is obviously effected.

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Just had a read through the rights, couldn't find any section where an out of warranty product should be replaced. I hope your not mixing a warranty and a guarentee up??

It depends which way you are using the terms in a legal sense or in the common use sense. In the common use sense a warranty and guarantee are the exact same. In the legal sense a warranty has nothing to do with a manufacturer's warranty/guarantee.

A manufacturer's warranty/guarantee only adds extra rights to the statutory rights already afforded to consumers. The manufacturer only needs to included specific information in their warranty/guarentee by law and after that can have any terms they like in it (although they must honour whatever terms they set) - they do not have to do anything more than what they offer in their manufacturer's warranty/guarantee. Warrantys are not necesssary unless a consumer chooses to use the warranty for reasons such as the business that sold the product has since gone out of business etc.

S14

(2) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are of merchantable quality, except that there is no such condition—

( a ) as regards defects specifically drawn to the buyer's attention before the contract is made, or

( b ) if the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, as regards defects which that examination ought to have revealed.

(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.

axer

BostonB wrote: »

Let me rephrase that. A design flaw that can't be permanently fixed.

Resale value is obviously effected.

I'm sure I understand how you define "design flaw". If I purchase a laptop that has a design flaw that causes it to fail after 2 years then I would consider that the laptop was not fit for purpose and not of merchantable quality.

ssmith6287

Look at MG ZR and older Fiat Punto's, Alfa Romeos. All sold with the design flaw of a sh1te head gasket .... no wait its not a design flaw its just a poor design, yet people bought em because they look good. When head gasket goes then they dont have comeback because its outside of warranty....... Same thing applies for a laptop, a customer would come into me looking for a laptop, We could have a real cheap one with glitter and bells, instead of saying yeah its the bees knees like most others would, id point out that yeah you have a weak cpu, the motherboards older then my mother, theres better graphics on a stick drawing... like the salesman cant be blamed if that comes back in 13-14 months barely working. I understand there was a flaw with the graphics card but if there was a major flaw like evryone here is saying itd happen within a year or after 3 so i'm thinking you just got unlucky with your laptop and the fact they giving u a replacement is very generous.

ssmith6287

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

a customer would come into me looking for a laptop, We could have a real cheap one with glitter and bells, instead of saying yeah its the bees knees like most others would, id point out that yeah you have a weak cpu, the motherboards older then my mother, theres better graphics on a stick drawing... like the salesman cant be blamed if that comes back in 13-14 months barely working. I understand there was a flaw with the graphics card but if there was a major flaw like evryone here is saying itd happen within a year or after 3 so i'm thinking you just got unlucky with your laptop and the fact they giving u a replacement is very generous.

Price and other factors are taken into account with regards durability, fit for purpose and merchantable quality. Luck doesn't come into it - nobody is buying from a lucky dip.

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

Firstly the issue is not with the warranty/guarantee here as they are irrelevant as the problem is covered by the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980.

Secondly a guarantee and warranty are effectively the same thing since it is the terms that ultimately matter. Since the terms can be what the manufacturer want them to be (since there is no obligation to supply a warranty/guarantee in the first place) then it doesn't matter what you call the piece of paper.

cancercowboy

I'd say if they are going to refund you they would have to refund you the purchase price. You should ask for a replacement laptop with the same or similar specifications.

You may want to take it up with he manufacturer and quote the E.U. legislation that states all goods sold have to be guaranteed against manufacturer fault for 2 years regardless of the warranty sold.

On a side note I had my iPhone repaired recently at the Tech Fixers in Rathmines while I was there a lady had just gotten a laptop repaired with this same problem. Apparently they reheat the graphics chip on the motherboard and the resolves the issue. I think they only charged her like €80. So I'm thinking you could get your laptop fixed and have that €500 from PC World in your pocket.

phil1nj

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

The warranty offered by a shop is in addition to the protection offered to consumers under the sale of goods act. It does not supercede it. If a product fails after the shop warranty period expires, the consumer is still entitled to request that the retailer (or whomever they had the sales contract with) rectify the situation by offering either a repair, replacement or refund (if the fault was present at the time of purchase unbeknownst to the consumer). If the retailer refuses, then thats when the small claims court get involved.

On a side note, I had a similar experience with a laptop this year and it panned out exactly the same way, a hardly used 2 year old Compaq laptop developed a fault which was down to the the graphics chip. This was bought in PC World and when I went to the store to ask for a refund/free repair I was told that once the 12 month warranty/gurantee expired , the retailer did not have to do anything about it and I would have to pay for the repairs.

Quoting the sales of goods and services act was like speaking greek to an ostrich as not one member of staff or even the manager calimed to know of the existance or purpose of the act. I was fobbed off at every turn until I went to the small claims court with an independent engineers report. Once this was submitted I was offered half the cost of the laptop plus the cost of the report.

I purchased a better spec'd laptop with the money and sold the defective one for spares. All in all I was down about 100Euro on the transaction which is what it probably would have cost to have PC World diagnose the problem anyway.

upandcumming

I have a VAIO VGN-FZ21E and my NVIDIA graphics card went bust a year after my warranty ended. I got onto Sony Support and they sent a courier out, fixed it, and sent it back within 7 days. Brilliant.

ssmith6287

upandcumming wrote: »

I have a VAIO VGN-FZ21E and my NVIDIA graphics card went bust a year after my warranty ended. I got onto Sony Support and they sent a courier out, fixed it, and sent it back within 7 days. Brilliant.

Wow that is brilliant, Was it free?

BostonB

cancercowboy wrote: »

...
On a side note I had my iPhone repaired recently at the Tech Fixers in Rathmines while I was there a lady had just gotten a laptop repaired with this same problem. Apparently they reheat the graphics chip on the motherboard and the resolves the issue. I think they only charged her like €80. So I'm thinking you could get your laptop fixed and have that €500 from PC World in your pocket.

Thats not a permanent fix. It will fail again. Pretty all these gfx cards will fail. Its a design flaw that effect all these chipsets. You may avoid it for longer if it doesn't get hot too often...

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1036374/what-nvidia
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1028703/all-nvidia-g84-g86s-bad

TouchingVirus

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Wow that is brilliant, Was it free?

Of course it was free. And it isn't brilliant, they most likely just replaced it with the same model which will fail in another two years. Quick fix for the customer, but it's only prolonging the inevitable

lil_tuts

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Of course it was free. And it isn't brilliant, they most likely just replaced it with the same model which will fail in another two years. Quick fix for the customer, but it's only prolonging the inevitable

Afraid i have to agree , they most probably just replaced it with another graphics card that is defective i have heard of people bringing the so called repaired laptop home and it breaking the next day. I wasn't going to take a repair if they offered it for that reason.

BostonB

The only way to avoid this issue is to get a laptop without one of those gfx chipsets.

lil_tuts

BostonB wrote: »

The only way to avoid this issue is to get a laptop without one of those gfx chipsets.

no more Nvidia for me ... still waiting for them to ring me about my refund i hope i dont have to go ringing the Uk they were meant to be in touch by today for Bank Details

upandcumming

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Of course it was free. And it isn't brilliant, they most likely just replaced it with the same model which will fail in another two years. Quick fix for the customer, but it's only prolonging the inevitable

lil_tuts wrote: »

Afraid i have to agree , they most probably just replaced it with another graphics card that is defective i have heard of people bringing the so called repaired laptop home and it breaking the next day. I wasn't going to take a repair if they offered it for that reason.

Well it was. The laptop itself will be obsolete in another two years anyway so it makes no difference.

Jev/N

I thought a good few of the main manufacturers had implemented special extended warranties for such occurrences.

I know it happened my Macbook Pro and, at the time, there was a 3 year special warranty, which I've heard has now been extended to 4.

Got the laptop fixed at an authorised reseller and didn't cost a cent

BostonB

upandcumming wrote: »

Well it was. The laptop itself will be obsolete in another two years anyway so it makes no difference.

I don't agree. Lots of people just use a computer to read email, book the odd flight and bring a letter. Don't need much power for that. If its not working though, its just a doorstop.

Varik

I made a post about my Dell xps m1710 that could be lock on as it seems to be the exact same problem as this and it's one of the listed laptops with the nvidia defect and has the same problem, how do i start and what do i say to dell when i call them, the laptop only died today and as i'm not sure what to do the age is around the same as the op.

BostonB

The M1710 (7950GTX) and 9400 (7900GS) suffers from different heat problems, as it uses a different chipset the earlier one. 7xxx vs 8xxx. There isn't a flaw in the gfx chip on that model, but the cooling in the case just can't cope with the heat, and it bakes the memory on the gfx card. Usually the 7950GTX as it runs hotter than the 7900GS. Though the M1710 has more cooling than the 9400.

The cards with the Nvidia defect are the 8400 ,8600,8700,8800,9600, 9800.

pat1981

The small claims court is an excellent option if the retailer ignores your complaint.
By complaint I mean in this instance a faulty laptop that has developed a fault outside the warranty period and the retailer will repair it but will charge you.
This situation happened to me.When I contacted the retailer, got the we'll fix it but gonna cost you. I didn't except this explanation, sent them a letter of complaint which they ignored and then issued proceedings in the small claims court. Eight weeks later settled with a full refund and case was withdrawn btw laptop was under 2 years.
My advice to other posters out there in a similar situation don't sell yourself short, the small claims works.
I've used it twice and both times got a full refund that's 100% success rate and never attended court.

Run_to_da_hills

Rollercoaster wrote: »

In my opinion you would be as well to take the 500 Euro and upgrade your laptop. I bought a desktop a few years ago with Windows ME for over 1300 Euro. It works as well as it did when new but it hardly has any value now! (PM me if anyone wants to make me an offer for the desktop complete with monitor, keyboard & mouse )

Good luck with your decision

Anything with Windows ME on it would be only worth about 20 euro.

foggy_lad

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Look at MG ZR and older Fiat Punto's, Alfa Romeos. All sold with the design flaw of a sh1te head gasket .... no wait its not a design flaw its just a poor design, yet people bought em because they look good. When head gasket goes then they dont have comeback because its outside of warranty....... Same thing applies for a laptop, a customer would come into me looking for a laptop, We could have a real cheap one with glitter and bells, instead of saying yeah its the bees knees like most others would, id point out that yeah you have a weak cpu, the motherboards older then my mother, theres better graphics on a stick drawing... like the salesman cant be blamed if that comes back in 13-14 months barely working. I understand there was a flaw with the graphics card but if there was a major flaw like evryone here is saying itd happen within a year or after 3 so i'm thinking you just got unlucky with your laptop and the fact they giving u a replacement is very generous.

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

forget about manufacturer and shop warranties and guarantees as these are superceeded by a customers statutory rights as per the sale of goods act and the seller/retailer is the only person responsible for offering a remedy within a reasonable timeframe given the cost of the items and nature of their use etc

Varik wrote: »

I made a post about my Dell xps m1710 that could be lock on as it seems to be the exact same problem as this and it's one of the listed laptops with the nvidia defect and has the same problem, how do i start and what do i say to dell when i call them, the laptop only died today and as i'm not sure what to do the age is around the same as the op.

your best option is to write to dell(if you bought directly from dell) or the retailer that sold you the laptop and ask them to repair replace or refund, but as this is a known flaw that cant be fixed a replacement with a different laptop which has a different graphics card is the only reasonable remedy apart from a refund.

ringing dell or even emailing them is only going to get you angry and waste your time and energy so i suggest keeping everything on paper!

Varik

Ok so i got something from a call they'll collect the laptop as a good will gesture, got offer a repair first for €400 then a new warranty for €170 which would allow for the replacement card and now i have a free good will gesture of a replacement card (same again). The point i want to ask about is that he kept say that Irish and EU law was 2 years for computers and also after this good will gesture if anything happens i'll have to pay for anything else if the same fault happens.

So even if it's as he says and a fault happens with the new card does anything cover that?

Where are the length of time that law protect to listed, and where is this 2 years from?

MunsterCycling

Script monkeys are funny, the CSR was talking out their arse.