Suicide is OK

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, yes, it is indeed a stretch considering the jump you made from your original post about this person, right through to making the accusation that she had thought about taking her children with her. Its a wild assumption based on... external observations. .

It's an assumption yes, but not a wild one, and having discussed it over the years with other people who knew those involved, not one i'm alone in making. No, i can't ever know for sure, but it's what i believe.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh yes, it doesn't matter if its strangers kids who find the body strewn all over the tracks or possibly see the blood sprayed across the front of the train as it rumbles in to get cleaned..

You're missing my point (deliberately, i think). I'm not defending my cousins actions as somehow brave or noble, or without consequence for those who found him, or his family. I'm just saying we dont "owe" strangers as much as we owe family - and we quite obviously don't, no matter what way you care to twist it.

Deleted User wrote: »

What is your relationship to these people...? Friend? Neighbor? Stranger?I'm really curious to know where you're getting such insight into their lives.

The father has been a very close friend of mine for many, many years. I'm not just repeating rumours or hearsay, anything i've said came straight from the horses mouth.

Deleted User wrote: »

.. In any case, i'd still very interested to know the support available to the woman while the children were there... you seem to leave that kind of info out. .

I'm not quite sure what you mean by support, she had her family, she had her friends, she had all the normal supports any other person has. She had a job, a house, a car, she wasn't a drug addict or anything like that. I'm not sure if that answers your question, as i said i don't quite understand it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I got that. You have your own agenda that suicides are selfish demented twats and that's all that can matter. After all, there are no possible excuses for their last action.

I've got an opinion, not an agenda, i think if anything you are the one with the agenda! And my opinion is not what you've written here. Obviously anybody who kills themselves is a deeply unhappy person, but that does not give you the right to destroy your kids lives, it just doesn't. The very least she owed those kids was to go somewhere else and do it, or to leave them go to their father like they were supposed to. To force them to be part of it they way she did is as i have repeatedly said, selfish and unforgiveable. I'm actually amazed that anybody could argue it wasn't to tell you the truth
That's just my personal opinion on that particular case, no more and no less.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's an assumption yes, but not a wild one, and having discussed it over the years with other people who knew those involved, not one i'm alone in making. No, i can't ever know for sure, but it's what i believe.

Its an assumption based on nothing concrete. Otherwise you would have mentioned previous attempts to harm the children by the mother, or other signs of instability...

You're missing my point (deliberately, i think). I'm not defending my cousins actions as somehow brave or noble, or without consequence for those who found him, or his family. I'm just saying we dont "owe" strangers as much as we owe family - and we quite obviously don't, no matter what way you care to twist it.

Twist it? I'm not twisting anything. Your cousin chose to throw himself under a train, whereas this mother chose to hang herself while her children were in the house. You cousins action moved away from the home where strangers would be affected by his death. And honestly, I can't imagine too many more gruesome or messy deaths than being killed by a train.

You're seem to be trying to make the distinction that being found dead by strangers isn't as bad as being found by family or children. It is. Both deaths are rather awful considering the state of the bodies after death regardless of who finds them.

[When I was 9 years old, myself and my cousin, found a dead body on a beach in Wexford. The Man had been dead for quite some time.. so decay and bites from fish. Not exactly a nice sight by any means. Unlikely to have been a suicide, rather an accident, but does that matter?]

The father has been a very close friend of mine for many, many years. I'm not just repeating rumours or hearsay, anything i've said came straight from the horses mouth.

And considering this is what the father is saying, doesn't it suggest that he had some rather large issues of his own, and probably had some influence over the conditions that encouraged the mother to commit suicide. After all, most people make an effort (especially when they're not warranted) to say nice things about the dead. Instead, you (and the father) are seeking to label massive blame on the mother.

I'm not suggesting any foul play here. I'm just not accepting your laying the blame solely on the mother...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by support, she had her family, she had her friends, she had all the normal supports any other person has. She had a job, a house, a car, she wasn't a drug addict or anything like that. I'm not sure if that answers your question, as i said i don't quite understand it.

Think about it this way... if you were a parent and working, what kind of support would you need to help you in the face of stress? perhaps financial problems, perhaps relationship problems with the father, perhaps lack of supervision of the children when she needed free time, etc etc.

Now, add on emotional problems, and consider what support would be needed... was it there? Was there anything close to it being available?

I've got an opinion, not an agenda, i think if anything you are the one with the agenda! And my opinion is not what you've written here. Obviously anybody who kills themselves is a deeply unhappy person, but that does not give you the right to destroy your kids lives, it just doesn't. The very least she owed those kids was to go somewhere else and do it, or to leave them go to their father like they were supposed to. To force them to be part of it they way she did is as i have repeatedly said, selfish and unforgiveable. I'm actually amazed that anybody could argue it wasn't to tell you the truth
That's just my personal opinion on that particular case, no more and no less.

My agenda is that I don't follow the simple set up you provided about this mothers case... Franky, its so unsympathetic that it sounds untrue. Perhaps its what you have been told, and you're just repeating such, but its such a dreadful story that I'm suprised that you don't write anything forgiving of the woman. Its just not natural.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

No she wasn't my mother, or related at all in fact. It's not that much of a stretch to think she planned to take the kids with her, she was the type of person who would regularly use her kids as a weapon.





I've had low points, same as everyone else, but thankfully i've never been suicidal





Yes, i'd feel slightly differently, as i've said - we owe our kids a duty of care that far outweighs the one we owe random strangers





They were never married, but they were together for roughly 14 years, before she dumped him for another man, it was when this relationship went sour about 6 or 8 months later that she killed herself. She was at best a disinterested mother, not cruel or abusive or anything but the kids always seemed an inconvenience to her, she wouldn't be what i would call a good mother, absolutely not! Kids were roughly 5 and 9 at the time, it was just before christmas (not that there is ever a good time, i suppose)




Of course some people have harder lives than others, for example kids that find their mother hanging from the bannisters, they have terrible lives. Maybe i'm just being cold or heartless, but as far as i'm concerned they and their father who has struggled to repair their childhood ever since are the victims here, not the mother!

Sorry where was the father during the years when she was alive?

I know a woman who had a great career, a supportive husband, and two beautiful kids, on the surface had it all. But it tore her in a million different directions and she ended up at the bottom of the Thames.

sbsquarepants

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sorry where was the father during the years when she was alive?

I know a woman who had a great career, a supportive husband, and two beautiful kids, on the surface had it all. But it tore her in a million different directions and she ended up at the bottom of the Thames.

They were together untill about 6 or 8 months before her death, she basically threw him out to be with another guy, that relationship went belly up and that was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. As i've said before she was a disinterested mother, the father done everything for and with the kids, he really is an exceptional father, she couldn't really be bothered. She was more of a ladette, not that there is anything wrong with that, takes all sorts and all that.
I fully accept the point that what looks like a great life to others may well be hell to the person living it (Kurt Cobain for example)

Klaz, maybe i'm saying it wrong or something but my opinion is not a million miles from yours. Of course the girl deserves sympathy, it's sad when anybody feels their life is not worth living, i'm not arguing that, i'm arguing that there was no need whatsoever to involve her children the way she did, and there wasn't, end of story. She deliberately caused them extra suffering and that is a horrible thing for any mother to do. Again i state my case that she owed them more than that, as a mother she failed in her responsibility to protect her kids and she failed them quite spectacularly, and again, to my mind, that overshadows everything else.
All the people involved in this whole mess deserve sympathy, but the kids and the father deserve the most, that's all i'm saying. I personally have never seen anything like the devestation she left behind, my cousins case didn't cause anything like it and that is the truth. The idea that she should be completely absolved of any blame, as if she had no hand, act or part in it, just doesn't wash with me and it never will. When you have kids in particular, you owe them, that's an absolute, we owe our kids better than leaving them to find our bodies hanging from the rafters, i will not ever accept that leaving them to find her was in any way forgiveable.
I get the whole thing about not speaking i'll of the dead and all that, but you don't know who i'm talking about and either does anyone else, therefore i can be more candid than i would otherwise be for fear of causing offence. I honestly hope i'm not offending anyone here, if i am i apologise.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

They were together untill about 6 or 8 months before her death, she basically threw him out to be with another guy, that relationship went belly up and that was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. As i've said before she was a disinterested mother, the father done everything for and with the kids, he really is an exceptional father, she couldn't really be bothered. She was more of a ladette, not that there is anything wrong with that, takes all sorts and all that.
I fully accept the point that what looks like a great life to others may well be hell to the person living it (Kurt Cobain for example)

Klaz, maybe i'm saying it wrong or something but my opinion is not a million miles from yours. Of course the girl deserves sympathy, it's sad when anybody feels their life is not worth living, i'm not arguing that, i'm arguing that there was no need whatsoever to involve her children the way she did, and there wasn't, end of story. She deliberately caused them extra suffering and that is a horrible thing for any mother to do. Again i state my case that she owed them more than that, as a mother she failed in her responsibility to protect her kids and she failed them quite spectacularly, and again, to my mind, that overshadows everything else.
All the people involved in this whole mess deserve sympathy, but the kids and the father deserve the most, that's all i'm saying. I personally have never seen anything like the devestation she left behind, my cousins case didn't cause anything like it and that is the truth. The idea that she should be completely absolved of any blame, as if she had no hand, act or part in it, just doesn't wash with me and it never will. When you have kids in particular, you owe them, that's an absolute, we owe our kids better than leaving them to find our bodies hanging from the rafters, i will not ever accept that leaving them to find her was in any way forgiveable.
I get the whole thing about not speaking i'll of the dead and all that, but you don't know who i'm talking about and either does anyone else, therefore i can be more candid than i would otherwise be for fear of causing offence. I honestly hope i'm not offending anyone here, if i am i apologise.

I do think suicide can be a very angry act. I know a guy in college who saw is mother hanging from her bedroom ceiling in his grandmother's house, the house she grew up in. Its hard not to judge her or be angry with her for that, I will sympathise with you there. I do think there is a selfishness in it, but in the same way in a sinking ship peoples desperation drives them, clouding their judgment into selfish acts. She may have convinced herself her kids are better off without her,especially if she felt or people were telling her she was a lousy mother. There is logic in it. Who knows what went in her head, sometimes parental duty can only take you so far, if you feel a joyless life ahead of you and you think all your kids will see from you is misery and despair.

What does it mean to forgive? I think it will be hard to until you can take the imagintive leap to the kind of self loathing it would take a mother to leave her kids. If she couldn't cope she should given the kids to your friend for custody and bear the brunt of being judged for abandoning her kids. Maybe that was too much to face too.

the_syco

I view it as selfish and/or cowardly, but I realize that most do it as they see no other way out. Most don't seek help with their problems, and end their temporary problems with a permanent solution.

For the sake of this discussion, how does the OP view the japanese suicide, oh how they do it to keep their honour? Seems to be rather high figures of single male japanese who kill themselves in their own apartment.

Dymo

Just after coming across this thread,

Can people just not see that suicide is a form of release for the person, its not being selfish its about letting go. The people left behind will probably be hurt at first in the end its the right thing to do. When I see or hear a report of suicide I think that person is now free and don't have to go through the mental torment that they must of being going through. People don't recognize a suicidal person because the persona given off can be the opposite to they way that person feels and I guess that's where this selfish idea comes from.

Stress, Anxiety, that feeling when you get up and know things can't get better and your right all the time except for a few brief moments but sooner or later your going to feel all the pressure back on again. The flashing thoughts during the day but knowing that one action will solve all that, no more worry and beating your self up. Maybe mental illness has something to do with it but they might not feel its an illness because surely an illness can have a cure its just the way life is to them.
I don't buy into this thing "things can only get better" they haven't for the last couple of years of no signs of them ever getting better. Seriously what are the downsides of suicide?

sbsquarepants

Dymo wrote: »

Just after coming across this thread,

Can people just not see that suicide is a form of release for the person, its not being selfish its about letting go.

That depends on the circumstance. The letting go part is obvious, but when you are failing people who depend on you, kids in particular, then that's selfish too. Yes, the person committing suicide gets released from their problems, but at the expense of creating new ones for their families, how can that be anything but selfishness?

Dymo wrote: »

I don't buy into this thing "things can only get better" they haven't for the last couple of years of no signs of them ever getting better. Seriously what are the downsides of suicide?

The downside is the suffering inflicted on those left behind. Anybody comitting suicide (barr those who are seriously mentally ill) know that someone is going to suffer for their actions, they must disregard this to proceed, now if there is a more dictionary perfect meaning of selfishness than disregarding the suffering of others to suit yourself, i have never heard it!

There could be a million different reasons why someone would do this but at it's core it is selfish, by it's very definition.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That depends on the circumstance. The letting go part is obvious, but when you are failing people who depend on you, kids in particular, then that's selfish too. Yes, the person committing suicide gets released from their problems, but at the expense of creating new ones for their families, how can that be anything but selfishness?





The downside is the suffering inflicted on those left behind. Anybody comitting suicide (barr those who are seriously mentally ill) know that someone is going to suffer for their actions, they must disregard this to proceed, now if there is a more dictionary perfect meaning of selfishness than disregarding the suffering of others to suit yourself, i have never heard it!

There could be a million different reasons why someone would do this but at it's core it is selfish, by it's very definition.

Becauase they have convinced themselves that what they are doing is better for their kids. You, yourself said she was a bad mother, maybe she believed that too, maybe she heard it often enough that she identified with the roll ascribed to her.

optogirl

alex73 wrote: »

Suicide is the most lame excuse !,,, Egoistic and selfish. YOUR pain may end... but all those around you start. maybe some people are really mentally ill.... who knows...
Father i knew took his life leaving wife and kids.... Poor women,

SUICIDE IS SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH!!

A lame excuse for what exactly? You are wrong - people who commit suicide are at an incredibly low, dark point that others could never even contemplate. It is not a decision taken lightly and how you could possibly say it it egotistical is beyond me. There is no glory in it. Somebody who commits suicide genuinely believes, however wrongly, that the world is better off without them. You are selfish selfish selfish if you cannot have any empathy for people who have reached this kind of low.

CDfm

Dymo wrote: »

Just after coming across this thread,

Can people just not see that suicide is a form of release for the person, its not being selfish its about letting go. The people left behind will probably be hurt at first in the end its the right thing to do. When I see or hear a report of suicide I think that person is now free and don't have to go through the mental torment that they must of being going through. People don't recognize a suicidal person because the persona given off can be the opposite to they way that person feels and I guess that's where this selfish idea comes from.

You need to take each individual case.

I heard of a local guy who had debt problems with a fairly good business who committed suicide last week.He wasnt in any imminent problems etc and the most pressing problem was paying his tax return. Nothing criminal and he had not defrauded anybody -just life stuff and recession.

Nice wife, kids etc.

Stress, Anxiety, that feeling when you get up and know things can't get better and your right all the time except for a few brief moments but sooner or later your going to feel all the pressure back on again. The flashing thoughts during the day but knowing that one action will solve all that, no more worry and beating your self up. Maybe mental illness has something to do with it but they might not feel its an illness because surely an illness can have a cure its just the way life is to them.
I don't buy into this thing "things can only get better" they haven't for the last couple of years of no signs of them ever getting better. Seriously what are the downsides of suicide?

The downside may have been bankruptsy but he would not have lost the family home and still would have had his career and qualifications and could have started off again maybe in the UK where the bankrupsy laws are not as draconian.

Things may not get a whole lot better but when a person gets used to changed circumstances they may not be bleak, tolerable, solveable and the person happier.

Lots of circumstances are temporary.

The urge to commit suicide may be not being able to see the wood for the trees or being too focused on the downside.

A person is worth more than that .

sbsquarepants

metrovelvet wrote: »

Becauase they have convinced themselves that what they are doing is better for their kids. You, yourself said she was a bad mother, maybe she believed that too, maybe she heard it often enough that she identified with the roll ascribed to her.

I can accept that somebody could be so low, that they might consider that their kids would be better off without them, i can see that. In a sad kind of way , it is possible that these people believe they are doing the right thing by killing themselves. But i absolutely cannot accept that anybody could convince themselves, no matter what their circumstances, that their own kids best interest was served by finding their mothers dead body a couple of weeks prior to christmas. There is no positive spin that can be put on something like that, it was cruel and it was selfish and above all it was totally unnecessary.
And as for identifying with the roll ascribed to her, no, i don't agree. If anyone ever said she was a bad mother to her (which, apart from her and the father arguing over her lack of interest, i don't know if anyone ever did), it would have been because she was one, not vice versa.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I can accept that somebody could be so low, that they might consider that their kids would be better off without them, i can see that. In a sad kind of way , it is possible that these people believe they are doing the right thing by killing themselves. But i absolutely cannot accept that anybody could convince themselves, no matter what their circumstances, that their own kids best interest was served by finding their mothers dead body a couple of weeks prior to christmas. There is no positive spin that can be put on something like that, it was cruel and it was selfish and above all it was totally unnecessary.
And as for identifying with the roll ascribed to her, no, i don't agree. If anyone ever said she was a bad mother to her (which, apart from her and the father arguing over her lack of interest, i don't know if anyone ever did), it would have been because she was one, not vice versa.

I can see what your saying. The way in which it was done shows either thoughtless indifference or active hostility but in the end has the same effect so it really makes no difference.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can see what your saying. The way in which it was done shows either thoughtless indifference or active hostility but in the end has the same effect so it really makes no difference.

It does make a difference.

I often think that when its teen suicide that a teen or an attention seeking person may not get the enormity of "forever".

Its like the drink aware campaign - drink responsibly.

You could say that a lot of suicides don't commit suicide responsibly.Its like love -love is wanting whats best for the other person and putting them first and its what as a parent you do.

So I can't get how a person might feel that they would put themselves first over their children or partner and say its love.

Maybe selfish is the right word for it or maybe there is a psychological term for it , self absorbed or narcissistic. I don't know.

sbsquarepants

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can see what your saying. The way in which it was done shows either thoughtless indifference or active hostility but in the end has the same effect so it really makes no difference.

I think it makes a difference. No child should have to see something like that. No parent should force them to.

CDfm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think it makes a difference. No child should have to see something like that. No parent should force them to.

I think its not an exact science - but a person who is suicidal cannot always be described as rational maybe just not thinking straight.

Thats not to say they are mentally ill but a person can do something stupid under stress impulsively or get fixed or focused on an idea that otherwise would not be "healthy". You dont need to be on drink or drugs to do that think roadrage.

Think U2's song lyrics -stuck in a moment you cant get out of - and thats why good mental health support is important.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I think its not an exact science - but a person who is suicidal cannot always be described as rational maybe just not thinking straight.

Thats not to say they are mentally ill but a person can do something stupid under stress impulsively or get fixed or focused on an idea that otherwise would not be "healthy". You dont need to be on drink or drugs to do that think roadrage.

Think U2's song lyrics -stuck in a moment you cant get out of - and thats why good mental health support is important.

Exactly!

sbsquarepants

I agree with you, but to use your road rage analogy, if on your way home tonight something happens and loose the plot and box another motorist for example, obviously you weren't thinking rationally to do that, but it doesn't absolve you of any of the guilt and this is the very same. I think she can not ever be absolved of that guilt, some things are just too bad to forgive, and this has got to be one of them. No?

CDfm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I agree with you, but to use your road rage analogy, if on your way home tonight something happens and loose the plot and box another motorist for example, obviously you weren't thinking rationally to do that, but it doesn't absolve you of any of the guilt and this is the very same. I think she can not ever be absolved of that guilt, some things are just too bad to forgive, and this has got to be one of them. No?

It does not absolve you of any of the guilt on road rage -but if you loose the head with someone and swear etc or toot the horn well - no animals were harmed in the production and if you commit a crime well you have to apologise and one hopes you wont go too far.

Guilt is the same. Depending on your belief its either God that will deal with it or its the end.

I think we can say that in this situation there is a choice of two, either a momentary lapse of reason or it was deliberate. The former you can forgive and the latter well its up to you and you hope the person is at some kind of peace.

It is very contextual and if someone does a selfish act deliberately and some people do well you can judge them accordingly. The selfish act here commiting suicide in a location that they will be found by their children. If on the other hand its a bsically good person who has a momentary lapse of reason -well that is something else. I may not like it but I can understand it.

PrincessLola

Yeah I don't think suicide should really be dismissed as a selfish act or anything, but I honestly don't blame any angry or hurt family members left behind for feeling bitter. I know I would.
My guess is that people who commit suicide are so blinded by their own pain and seemingly inescapaple situatuions that they don't even consider the wider picture of devastated family/friends. Honestly I'd have much more sympathy with a murder victim, then a suicide victim. (rabble rabble I'm so cold and heartless rabble rabble) Really I'm not, I just think that YES as a matter of fact we do have a certain responsibility to the people who love us. Furthermore we have a responsibility to OURSELVES to give ourselves the chance at life we all deserve.

CDfm

PrincessLola wrote: »

Yeah I don't think suicide should really be dismissed as a selfish act or anything, but I honestly don't blame any angry or hurt family members left behind for feeling bitter. I know I would.
.

+1

My guess is that people who commit suicide are so blinded by their own pain and seemingly inescapaple situatuions that they don't even consider the wider picture of devastated family/friends. Honestly I'd have much more sympathy with a murder victim, then a suicide victim. (rabble rabble I'm so cold and heartless rabble rabble) Really I'm not, I just think that YES as a matter of fact we do have a certain responsibility to the people who love us. Furthermore we have a responsibility to OURSELVES to give ourselves the chance at life we all deserve

+1

But we can't get away from it that some people are not so nice, selfish and heartless.

Not everyone, but some are.

sbsquarepants

CDfm wrote: »

+1
But we can't get away from it that some people are not so nice, selfish and heartless.
Not everyone, but some are.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head there, some people are just no good, the fact of their death (by whatever means) doesn't change that and in fact in some cases it actually reinforces it.
I think that if the girl i'm talking about had of died in a car crash, or of cancer or something, the bad things about her would be more or less forgotten, with time most people tend to recall the fond memories more so than the bad, well i do anyway!
But now, because of the manner of her death that is impossible, it's impossible for me to hear her name without that being the very first thing i think of and then the fact that she once brought the kids to feed the ducks or whatnot just seems totally irrelevant. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for the kids, i know for a fact that my friend has to force himself to remember any good times, which lets face it, in a decade and a half there must have been loads!! This one event towers over everything else and always will do. It's just sad beyond imagination.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you've just hit the nail on the head there, some people are just no good, the fact of their death (by whatever means) doesn't change that and in fact in some cases it actually reinforces it.
I think that if the girl i'm talking about had of died in a car crash, or of cancer or something, the bad things about her would be more or less forgotten, with time most people tend to recall the fond memories more so than the bad, well i do anyway!
But now, because of the manner of her death that is impossible, it's impossible for me to hear her name without that being the very first thing i think of and then the fact that she once brought the kids to feed the ducks or whatnot just seems totally irrelevant. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for the kids, i know for a fact that my friend has to force himself to remember any good times, which lets face it, in a decade and a half there must have been loads!! This one event towers over everything else and always will do. It's just sad beyond imagination.

You can forgive something or someone without diminishing responsibility. What she did was monstrous. I dont dispute that, or the horror she left behind to her kids.

I listened to a radio program a while back on BBC radio called "A woman's right to be evil" and a psychatrist was talking about female psychopaths, killers, domestic violence perpetrators, and what she said about them and she included their male counterparts in this, was 'these people are lost." It was one of the most humane talks I ever heard and openned my eyes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nhmgn/Night_Waves_Free_Thinking_2009_Free_Thinking_Gwen_Adshead/

Everyone can get to a point of being heartless. This same psychiatrist referenced Nazi Germany and pointed out that people were murdering other people without coercion and were totally willing to do it. [It was in a well known book but I cant find the link to the radio broadcast].

I dont know what causes it, what induces it, etc but a person can be so EGOLESS that they are unaware of their effect on others and can paradoxically appear egotistical and selfish.

sbsquarepants

It's an interesteing point alright, years back i read about Dennis Nilson the serial killer, i think the book was called killing for company, he describes the day he was finally caught and arrested as "the day that help arrived" He was certainly lost. In fact, i felt a little sorry for him, strangely enough!
I suppose you probably don't know for sure untill you're in that situation yourself, but i can't imagine i would ever do what she did, i suppose, if i'm honest, i believe i'm better than that. I'm not really comfortable saying that but it's what it boils down to. I certainly hope i would never do anything like that to my kids, no matter what happens in my life, but if by some bizzare circumstance i did, i would fully expect to never be forgiven. I mean in the personal sense, i'm an atheist so i wouldn't be concerned about burning in hell or anything like that. I view it as more or less the ultimate betrayal.
Maybe i'm just not a very forgiving person?

CDfm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's an interesteing point alright, years back i read about Dennis Nilson the serial killer, i think the book was called killing for company, he describes the day he was finally caught and arrested as "the day that help arrived" He was certainly lost. In fact, i felt a little sorry for him, strangely enough!

I don't think its the same - guys like Dennis Neilson are murderers and do not want to get caught and what was stopping him going into the police station all along. He is not a victim but a very dangerous evil person.

The phrase "red hot poker" springs to mind.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Klaz, maybe i'm saying it wrong or something but my opinion is not a million miles from yours.

I'm afraid it is extremely different. Perhaps about suicide in general, but this example you provided puts us on opposite sides.

Of course the girl deserves sympathy, it's sad when anybody feels their life is not worth living, i'm not arguing that,

And yet, despite that admission, it goes no further. Its like mouthing the words because there is no emotion or feeling behind them.

i'm arguing that there was no need whatsoever to involve her children the way she did, and there wasn't, end of story. She deliberately caused them extra suffering and that is a horrible thing for any mother to do.

And I'd agree if this was any sort of rational thing to do. Why do people keep trying to place responsibility for rational behavior and thought processes, on people suffering extreme depression ( and probably a host of other conditions), and expect them to behave in a clear and logical manner? It boggles the mind.

I continue to wonder why nobody noticed any of the trouble she was having in the months before this.... If they had noticed, I'm assuming you would have mentioned it previously..

Again i state my case that she owed them more than that, as a mother she failed in her responsibility to protect her kids and she failed them quite spectacularly, and again, to my mind, that overshadows everything else.

IMO, as a mother she perhaps performed the ultimate sacrifice by killing herself to remove the emotional threat to her children... IF she felt that there was no chance of recovery, no chance of getting support from others to help with the problems she was facing, then, perhaps she felt this was the only answer... for both herself and her children.

I meant to ask this earlier... where are the children living now? With the father or with someone else?

The idea that she should be completely absolved of any blame, as if she had no hand, act or part in it, just doesn't wash with me and it never will.

Completely absolved? Nope. But given some degree of doubt regarding her actions? To be accused that she intended to kill her children but changed her mind? nope. I'm not saying she wasn't responsible. I'm saying the Father was responsible. I'm saying her (and his) family were responsible. I'm saying stop passing the buck entirely over to her.

When you have kids in particular, you owe them, that's an absolute, we owe our kids better than leaving them to find our bodies hanging from the rafters, i will not ever accept that leaving them to find her was in any way forgiveable.

You owe children to be the best parent you possibly can be. Nobody is trained to be a parent except through experience. In many cases, people don't choose to be parents at all, and just have to deal with it. And others are forced emotionally, or practically to having children to suit their partners wishes.

Too often people focus entirely on the children and forget the needs of the parents. As it would appear to have been the case here.

I get the whole thing about not speaking i'll of the dead and all that, but you don't know who i'm talking about and either does anyone else, therefore i can be more candid than i would otherwise be for fear of causing offence. I honestly hope i'm not offending anyone here, if i am i apologise.

We may not know the woman personally, but from the information you provided in your posts we can get an image of the situation. TBH I believe there's a lot going on here that didn't involve the mother. I've known may relationships which broke up whilst having children in the mix, and there is always a lot more than one factor going on, and it always comes down to more than one person.

You have continuously sought to throw all the blame in her direction which is unrealistic considering she had managed to raise two children for years, while managing both a job and doing the housework. In spite of your speaking of the father in glowing terms, its appears (to me) from your description that she did most of the parenting.

To me, this is not so much about speaking bad about the dead. This is simply because I find your description of events so improbable. Perhaps others feel differently. They're welcome to. But the way you have described the situation over a number of posts screams cover-up about the lack of support for the mother, and that the father wasn't quite so wonderful on a relationship level.

A few months back my sister fell in the shower, banged her head an suffered a concussion. Went to the doctors and such but ultimately they told her she needed rest, quiet and relaxation for 4-6 weeks to get better. She was getting extreme headaches, reacted horribly to loud noises, and couldn't deal with decisions of any kind. Which is quite difficult with 2 small children aged 3 & 4, and working as a teacher. Her husband had a start-up business and worked 16 hour shifts so couldn't provide much in the way of help. She couldn't work, and she couldn't manage the children without getting irritable. She turned instantly from being a fantastic mother, to being a harridan. Without the support of her family she couldn't have managed things since we took the children every day for hours while she recuperated, taking them 4 nights a week and it still took just under three months for her to recover. So between the illness, the stress of being unable to be a parent (when she was the primary parents most of the time, and the financial stress of a single income, it took its toll.

She didn't get suicidal, but she did have a number of breakdowns and deep depression during this period. Now, consider what it would have been like without support...

This is why I'm so interested in your example... and why I have asked so many times regarding the level of support this mother received whilst working and parenting... and why she is being considered such a bad mother by you.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's an interesteing point alright, years back i read about Dennis Nilson the serial killer, i think the book was called killing for company, he describes the day he was finally caught and arrested as "the day that help arrived" He was certainly lost. In fact, i felt a little sorry for him, strangely enough!
I suppose you probably don't know for sure untill you're in that situation yourself, but i can't imagine i would ever do what she did, i suppose, if i'm honest, i believe i'm better than that. I'm not really comfortable saying that but it's what it boils down to. I certainly hope i would never do anything like that to my kids, no matter what happens in my life, but if by some bizzare circumstance i did, i would fully expect to never be forgiven. I mean in the personal sense, i'm an atheist so i wouldn't be concerned about burning in hell or anything like that. I view it as more or less the ultimate betrayal.
Maybe i'm just not a very forgiving person?

Sure. I look at Hanz Fritz and seriously, I cannot see any humanity in him. That is beyond the scope of my imaginative capacities.

Maybe you are better than the woman you speak of, but maybe you are not. You were not her, you did not walk in her shoes, have her upbringing- which may not have given her the ability to cope, bear children, have pnd, chronic depression, etc and raise two kids alone. You cannot look at what she did in isolation from the others around her.

CDfm

There are people there who deserve our compassion.

Some don't.

I think it is easy to try to judge people but in the case of the mother who committed suicide -no-one knows what was going thru her head and we should really give her the benefit of the doubt unless we know that she acted deliberately.

Paula Yates, effectivelly committed suicide, and was found by her daughter. She had a messy life.

So we should not really speculate.Accidental deaths have always happened & it is the cycle of life. We should not really make an unhappy situation worse by sanitising death. Kids do recover and while it is awful -I often think it is sometimes modern day sensitivities that make it so.

I was at an open casket funeral recently and there were people there who had not been to one before and could not hack it. It was there issue.

& Klaz parenting is difficult and it involves everyone and your sister is lucky to have you and a hardworking partner. Parents are human and children don't break and are very resiliant.

PrincessLola

PrincessLola wrote: »

Yeah I don't think suicide should really be dismissed as a selfish act or anything, but I honestly don't blame any angry or hurt family members left behind for feeling bitter. I know I would.

People will feel what they want regardless of what someone does in life or in death. My uncle died leaving three children behind him. Two spoke lovingly about him being a fantastic father who was always there to support them, and the third refused to go to the Funeral stating that he would give his father the respect he deserved by ignoring him in death, as he had in life. So.. was he a good father or a bad one? It doesn't matter.. because the perception of those closest to him were different depending on their circumstances.

My guess is that people who commit suicide are so blinded by their own pain and seemingly inescapaple situatuions that they don't even consider the wider picture of devastated family/friends.

Or perhaps they feel that since people fail to care while they are alive, why should they care when they're dead..? Or that perhaps by dying they can release their family from the linkage of problems, and ultimately provide a measure of release & healing?

So many possibles considering the state of mind of the persons involved.

Honestly I'd have much more sympathy with a murder victim, then a suicide victim. (rabble rabble I'm so cold and heartless rabble rabble) Really I'm not, I just think that YES as a matter of fact we do have a certain responsibility to the people who love us.

If they love us. Its amazing the number of people who are invisible when alive, but suddenly become loved when they're dead. The fact of the matter, is that not everyone's life is cushy and comfortable. Some people's lives are cold and uncomfortable because of the very people that are supposed to be loving us, and are.. not.

Furthermore we have a responsibility to OURSELVES to give ourselves the chance at life we all deserve.

Totally agree, although not in the way you meant it. But then that's selfish the moment it means placing that responsibility over the needs of other people. i.e. your family or friends. Personally... I feel that our life is our own. To be done with in whatever manner we chose. After all, we're the ones that enjoy the successes or feel the failures ( and the subsequent consequences).

In life or death, it is our life. Not our families... not our children... not our husbands, and not our God's. One sole ownership. One sole person constantly that has to endure the consequences. For good or for bad.

Delicate_Dlite

I don't see suicide as a selfish act, of course every case is different. I believe in certain circumstances, an incredibly painful terminal illness etc., a large amount of ppl would agree with it being understandable. (I could be wrong)

But I always hate how when the 'unbearable' illness is mental, ppl insist that the person should suffer with it. Of course most mental illness can be helped through medical intervention, but what if it's not a 'temporay problem', I think that it should be an option for them, one without the stigma. I don't believe they SHOULD, but I would never judge them for it.

Just my 2 cents

CDfm

Delicate_Dlite wrote: »

I don't see suicide as a selfish act, of course every case is different. I believe in certain circumstances, an incredibly painful terminal illness etc., a large amount of ppl would agree with it being understandable. (I could be wrong)

Terminal illness and pain management is different.

But I always hate how when the 'unbearable' illness is mental, ppl insist that the person should suffer with it. Of course most mental illness can be helped through medical intervention, but what if it's not a 'temporay problem', I think that it should be an option for them, one without the stigma. I don't believe they SHOULD, but I would never judge them for it.

Just my 2 cents

A person should behave responsibly too and you have obligations to others -like it or not.

So on that you can have a view on whether their overall behavior was responsible or not.

Delicate_Dlite

Yes, however, I believe at a certain point if pain management is affecting the person's quality of life to such a degree, then I believe it can be a reasonable comparison.

I believe our first responsibility is to ourselves. And I don't see how being miserable, but sticking around, just because of others is a more noble decision. I mean, we are all mortal, we will die at some point, why suffer needlessly?

And does that mean, if a person has no relations/friends it's ok to commit suicide ?

the_syco

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Anybody comitting suicide (barr those who are seriously mentally ill) know that someone is going to suffer for their actions, they must disregard this to proceed, now if there is a more dictionary perfect meaning of selfishness than disregarding the suffering of others to suit yourself, i have never heard it!

There could be a million different reasons why someone would do this but at it's core it is selfish, by it's very definition.

Selfish, but from what I've seen, the person is usually in such a f**ked up state a mind, that suicide makes sense. Example: someone owed €5000 to a bunch of dealers in Ballymun. Rather than ask for a lend of the money from his parents, he jumped in front of a train.

CDfm wrote: »

You need to take each individual case.

Agreed.

CDfm wrote: »

I heard of a local guy who had debt problems with a fairly good business

Stress.

CDfm wrote: »

Nice wife, kids etc.

More stress.

CDfm wrote: »

The downside may have been bankruptcy

Lots more stress.

CDfm wrote: »

The urge to commit suicide may be not being able to see the wood for the trees or being too focused on the downside.

Pretty much it seems. Some can't seek help, be it pride, or just not knowing who to turn to. Some people think that others don't know what they're going through, and should they ask, and get told to "suck it up", or the ole "you're lucky to have a job", they'll only see one way out. And by then, they won't be thinking straight: they'll only be thinking about the escape.

=-=

I still call the majority selfish. That or cowards. Brave enough to take your own life? I think not. Too cowardly to strive on, imo.

the_syco

I actually agreed with most of your post except for the next bit.

the_syco wrote: »

I still call the majority selfish. That or cowards. Brave enough to take your own life? I think not. Too cowardly to strive on, imo.

I dunno. Personally what I consider to be brave is probably easily acceptable to you, simply because I find such things more difficult to do. I can't handle heights at all, and I always think the people who work on high rise construction sites are either brave or nut cases.

The point is that being brave or cowardly is irrelevant. Its just like calling them selfish. Its projecting your own feelings/opinions on to someone else's actions without any real insight into the action itself. You will never have any true understanding of my life and what it means to live it without actually living it. So throwing out comments of selfish or cowardly towards forces you have little or no understanding of... seems rather selfish (since you're projecting your experience as being total), don't you think?

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

I continue to wonder why nobody noticed any of the trouble she was having in the months before this.... If they had noticed, I'm assuming you would have mentioned it previously.. .

The girl wasn't having any problems that i or anyone else knows of, she was having the craic with her new bloke until about 3 or 4 weeks before her death. To me it's a fairly clear case of the grass not being greener.

Deleted User wrote: »

IMO, as a mother she perhaps performed the ultimate sacrifice by killing herself to remove the emotional threat to her children... IF she felt that there was no chance of recovery, no chance of getting support from others to help with the problems she was facing, then, perhaps she felt this was the only answer... for both herself and her children..

And this sacrifice was aided by them finding her was it?

Deleted User wrote: »

I meant to ask this earlier... where are the children living now? With the father or with someone else?.

They live with their father since the mothers death.

Deleted User wrote: »

Completely absolved? Nope. But given some degree of doubt regarding her actions? To be accused that she intended to kill her children but changed her mind? nope. I'm not saying she wasn't responsible. I'm saying the Father was responsible. I'm saying her (and his) family were responsible. I'm saying stop passing the buck entirely over to her. .

Are you for real?

Deleted User wrote: »

You have continuously sought to throw all the blame in her direction which is unrealistic considering she had managed to raise two children for years, while managing both a job and doing the housework. In spite of your speaking of the father in glowing terms, its appears (to me) from your description that she did most of the parenting. .

How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, read my posts again, she didn't raise the kids, HE did. The kids were never much more than an inconvenience to her. I can't for the life of me see how you could take anything other than that from what i wrote and if you did, then let me assure you it was unintentional. She hardly done any of the parenting, she certainly didn't do most!

Deleted User wrote: »

To me, this is not so much about speaking bad about the dead. This is simply because I find your description of events so improbable. Perhaps others feel differently.

Well all i can say is that's the truth as i experienced it, unembelished and largely uncensored. Sometimes as they say, the truth is stranger than fiction.

Deleted User wrote: »

But the way you have described the situation over a number of posts screams cover-up about the lack of support for the mother, and that the father wasn't quite so wonderful on a relationship level.

It might scream cover to you, but then you've already proven you aren't actually reading what i'm saying. This is the agenda, i mentioned earlier. Not every mother who commits suicide was a loving and caring soul, striving selflessly for the good of her family but battered into submision by a cruel and unsupportive world. Some people may well be, BUT NOT THIS PERSON. Some people are just no good, in life or in death, that's a point you seem to be ignoring. Everybody can't be wonderfull.

As for the father being all that? Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors, but i do KNOW for a stone cold fact that those kids are much better off with her gone and him raising them, than they would have been, had the roles been reversed.

I'm not tarring all suicides with the one brush (like you are), i'm saying each case needs individual treatment to form an opinion. This is my opinion of this one case and i'm quite happy that it's correct.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The girl wasn't having any problems that i or anyone else knows of, she was having the craic with her new bloke until about 3 or 4 weeks before her death. To me it's a fairly clear case of the grass not being greener.

Whereas it suggests to me that there were problems with the Father of the children on various levels and she sought some form of escape. Unfortunately she didn't receive what she needed from the new relationship and it bottomed. But then TBH she'd lasted longer in those two relationships than most of mine...

But I will repeat that its interesting that neither you nor those that knew her, had any inkling that she had serious problems.... Don't you find that curious, when you're an authority on everything else in that relationship?

And this sacrifice was aided by them finding her was it?

You really can't get past that can you? You suggested alternative endings, so did I. At least mine, doesn't talk about killing her own children.

They live with their father since the mothers death.

Good to know.

Are you for real?

Damn right, I am for real. The Father had a direct input into the life of the mother at every point prior to the breakup and considering the raising of the children thereafter, the father would also have had to have contact with the mother.

Again, I say.. stop passing the buck entirely over to her. The Father was responsible, the families were responsible, and the friends were responsible.

How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, read my posts again, she didn't raise the kids, HE did. The kids were never much more than an inconvenience to her. I can't for the life of me see how you could take anything other than that from what i wrote and if you did, then let me assure you it was unintentional. She hardly done any of the parenting, she certainly didn't do most!

Actually, this is the first time that you have said that he raised the kids. In the majority of your posts you give remarkably little information about the father or what he did, and focus the comments (negative) on the mother.

Well all i can say is that's the truth as i experienced it, unembelished and largely uncensored. Sometimes as they say, the truth is stranger than fiction.

And yet, you said that the majority of information you know comes from the Father... From the horses mouth.

It might scream cover to you, but then you've already proven you aren't actually reading what i'm saying. This is the agenda, i mentioned earlier.

Well, I will admit that I have read between the lines because you haven't really answered my questions about the situation about the mother, the father or the support that she might have received.

And it was me, that raised the agenda issue originally. About you.

Not every mother who commits suicide was a loving and caring soul, striving selflessly for the good of her family but battered into submision by a cruel and unsupportive world. Some people may well be, BUT NOT THIS PERSON. Some people are just no good, in life or in death, that's a point you seem to be ignoring. Everybody can't be wonderfull.

Oddly enough I haven't sought to portray this mother nor any mother as being this manner of perfection you describe. In fact, I've spoken about how hard life can be, and how inadequate parents can be especially when they lack support from others. The problem I have is this focus you have on making her into a monster... and the ex-boyfriend a saint.

As for the father being all that? Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors, but i do KNOW for a stone cold fact that those kids are much better off with her gone and him raising them, than they would have been, had the roles been reversed.

Apparently, you do know what is going on behind closed doors because you experienced it, and you've also heard it from the Father. Your words, not mine.

And perhaps the kids are indeed better off... But the mother isn't. She's still dead. And I still wonder what led her to commit suicide.

I'm not tarring all suicides with the one brush (like you are), i'm saying each case needs individual treatment to form an opinion. This is my opinion of this one case and i'm quite happy that it's correct.

Well, if you're happy, then I'm happy. Although you might want to read my posts again, if you think I'm tarring all suicides with the one brush. :rolleyes:

CDfm

All women are not perfect and neither are all men. Child abuse/neglect is more likely to occur at the hands of a mother than a father and child sexual abuse by women seems to be hugely under reported and on the increase.

This thread is not really about any of that & we should not be discussing this individual other than in the most general terms. One hopes she is at peace.

However, one thing that interests me is if there was a trigger event i.e. did she hit the booze or drugs for instance or loose her job and/or relationship or did she look for any help.

1 in 4 people will experience a mental health issue sometime in their lives.

Just because a woman/mother is a bit of a basketcase ( and I am not being specific to anyone here) does not mean she deserved to die or not get help.

Rubik.

the_syco wrote: »

I still call the majority selfish. That or cowards. Brave enough to take your own life? I think not. Too cowardly to strive on, imo.

It's an act of utter desperation and despair, I wouldn't be so judgemental as to call it cowardly, or even selfish. You have to factor in mental illness. The vast majority of people who commit suicide are suffering from mental illnesses such as clinical depression, personality disorder, schizophrenia...etc. In fact, suicidial thoughts are often systems of these illnesses.

I think a fairly safe assumption to make is - if a person didn't have an underlyng mental illness that person wouldn't commit sucide. Most mental illnesses, though unfortunatetly not all, are treatable to varying degrees. Therefore, most suicides are preventable. The key is to increase awareness of this fact.

sbsquarepants

CDfm wrote: »

However, one thing that interests me is if there was a trigger event i.e. did she hit the booze or drugs for instance or loose her job and/or relationship or did she look for any help..

The trigger as far as anyone can tell was when her new relationship broke down, it was more of a fling than a relationship and it appears she hoped it would be more. As for drink and drugs, she was a ladette for want of a better description, there was a fair bit of alcohol in her system the night she died.

CDfm wrote: »

Just because a woman/mother is a bit of a basketcase ( and I am not being specific to anyone here) does not mean she deserved to die or not get help.

Of course not.


Klaz, i think we're getting nowhere!
You're obviously quite a compasionate person and thats admirable. But as far as i'm concerned it's misplaced here. It's the kids and the father that are the ones that are most deserving of it. That's always been my opinion and it's unlikely to change now. I do see your points and i even accept a lot of them on general principle, but i still can't forgive what she done, i really can't. On this case we'll just have to agree to differ!

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Klaz, i think we're getting nowhere!

Aye, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not going be satisfied because I don't have all the information.

You're obviously quite a compasionate person and thats admirable. But as far as i'm concerned it's misplaced here. It's the kids and the father that are the ones that are most deserving of it. That's always been my opinion and it's unlikely to change now. I do see your points and i even accept a lot of them on general principle, but i still can't forgive what she done, i really can't. On this case we'll just have to agree to differ!

This isn't about forgiveness. Its about understanding why. Not once did you make any reference to why she killed herself, or what led her to such a drastic position. Instead, you've focused entirely on the end result.

Probably best to leave things as they are. We just see the true victims as being entirely different people.

metrovelvet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The trigger as far as anyone can tell was when her new relationship broke down, it was more of a fling than a relationship and it appears she hoped it would be more. As for drink and drugs, she was a ladette for want of a better description, there was a fair bit of alcohol in her system the night she died.





Of course not.


Klaz, i think we're getting nowhere!
You're obviously quite a compasionate person and thats admirable. But as far as i'm concerned it's misplaced here. It's the kids and the father that are the ones that are most deserving of it. That's always been my opinion and it's unlikely to change now. I do see your points and i even accept a lot of them on general principle, but i still can't forgive what she done, i really can't. On this case we'll just have to agree to differ!

If she was drinking for a long time and doing drugs she was committing chronic suicide for a long time. Anyone try to stop her? Did the dad and the kids try an intervention? Did they go to ALANON? Did they look into rehab? Did they confront her or enable her problem?

Cant you see the self loathing even in that behavior?

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

If she was drinking for a long time and doing drugs she was committing chronic suicide for a long time. Anyone try to stop her? Did the dad and the kids try an intervention? Did they go to ALANON? Did they look into rehab? Did they confront her or enable her problem?

Cant you see the self loathing even in that behavior?

I can't see self loathing as she had free will and these were lifestyle choices and she was responsible for her own behaviour.

The initiative would have needed to be hers.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I can't see self loathing as she had free will and these were lifestyle choices and she was responsible for her own behaviour.

The initiative would have needed to be hers.

Not always. Sometimes people are too entrenched in their own self destruction, that's why addiction recovery often starts with family intervention supervised by a rehabilitation specialist.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Not always. Sometimes people are too entrenched in their own self destruction, that's why addiction recovery often starts with family intervention supervised by a rehabilitation specialist.

Maybe -but I think its too precise here but it is probably fair to say thant the booze was a huge factor and at the very least people have theiir " most Brialliant ideas" drunk or stoned. One that fits into that category.

thegirls2

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

What's wrong with being selfish? The unhappiest people in this world are those who live their lives according to other people's needs.

Personally I think there is a lot more than "selfishness" to a person committing suicide. I have a lot of sympathy for those who have killed themselves. They must have been in horrible pain to do such a thing.

I agree with you,we lost a dear friend of ours 3 years ago,yes it has devestated us and his family but ill never get it out of my head that he felt he was at a dead end with no where to turn,if only he knew we would have done anything for him,its not a selfish act in my opinion,no-one understands wats going through a persons mind.

CDfm

thegirls2 wrote: »

I agree with you,we lost a dear friend of ours 3 years ago,yes it has devestated us and his family but ill never get it out of my head that he felt he was at a dead end with no where to turn,if only he knew we would have done anything for him,its not a selfish act in my opinion,no-one understands wats going through a persons mind.

There is a lot of stigma attatched to mental illness and to the I cant let people see me not cope.

The confusion must be awful.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

There is a lot of stigma attatched to mental illness and to the I cant let people see me not cope.

The confusion must be awful.

IMO there's a lot of stigma about counseling too, and what we consider acceptable grounds before visiting such. Consider the reactions of posters here when I suggested that everyone should go to a counselor. A wave of dislike of the idea. Simply put, we use words like mental illness towards these problems which does nothing to stop the problem. When I considered suicide, I wasn't mentally ill. Fact is, in my eyes, I have never been mentally ill. And such a reference is just as destructive as the emotions that the category is supposed describe.

Honestly, we need to get to the stage where a counseling session is no more serious than getting a massage.

CDfm

Not everyone needs councelling and most people cope or have friends they can confide in or go to for advice.

However, I agree that for those who need it the stigma does put them off and for those who need it most practical help is not accessable.

Our society has limited resourses and even during the celtic tiger era when lots was being spent issues such as illegal immigrant care was higher up the aghenda than suicide prevention etc.Thats not criticising illegal immigrants but just pointing out that the trigger events and needs of suicides are normally of a very practical nature and it was an opportunity missed.

I think myself that GP care and voluntary groups are more effective then HSE/State run initiatives and it is there the funds should be allocated.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

Not everyone needs councelling and most people cope or have friends they can confide in or go to for advice.

Honestly, most people do not have the skills to get past their own problems or experiences enough to help their friends effectively when the chips are down. I'm not seeking to lessen the help that friends and family can provide. It is of immeasurable value, but its still rather limited.

The belief that counseling should be kept until a serious problem arises is part of the existing problem.

As for most people not needing counseling, I have to wonder what you believe counseling to entail... have you ever had a session?

Our society has limited resourses and even during the celtic tiger era when lots was being spent issues such as illegal immigrant care was higher up the aghenda than suicide prevention etc.Thats not criticising illegal immigrants but just pointing out that the trigger events and needs of suicides are normally of a very practical nature and it was an opportunity missed.

The cost of four counseling sessions (per year) is covered under the Medical card scheme which anyone entitled to welfare can avail of. And those that are above the requirements have their own income to cover the costs, which aren't high to begin with. I've gotten the sessions per the card initially, and I paid for two more sessions myself with the money I received from my dole with enough to live on thereafter.

There is this belief that such care is expensive, and therefore most of us wouldn't be able to afford such a visit unless it was of serious need. Well, its not.

I think myself that GP care and voluntary groups are more effective then HSE/State run initiatives and it is there the funds should be allocated.

I don't know much about that, except to say that the counselors that I have spoken with through sessions or externally (I'm involved in some private NLP organisations) have all been extremely good at their professions. But then they would have to be considering the investment of time needed for clinical psychology.