Oven not working

jupiter00

We bought a miele oven and now its three years old the oven doesn't heat up. I would expect an oven to last longer than three years, of course its out of warranty now ( 2yr). I phoned miele in Dublin and the call out fee is 150e for first hour!. I wouldn't mind if it was 5/6 years old but 3 years and we are not heavy users of an oven. What recourse do I have. I have read the stickies but its not a 'new' purchase but I am dissappointed about the durability esp all the advertising from their website about their products, is there a manufacturer's warranty longer than 2 years.

axer

jupiter00 wrote: »

We bought a miele oven and now its three years old the oven doesn't heat up. I would expect an oven to last longer than three years, of course its out of warranty now ( 2yr). I phoned miele in Dublin and the call out fee is 150e for first hour!. I wouldn't mind if it was 5/6 years old but 3 years and we are not heavy users of an oven. What recourse do I have. I have read the stickies but its not a 'new' purchase but I am dissappointed about the durability esp all the advertising from their website about their products, is there a manufacturer's warranty longer than 2 years.

Contact the seller. They should be always the first port of call (especially when out of warranty) as they are the ones you have a sales contract with. As long as you didnt misuse or abuse the oven and followed correct cleaning etc instructions (and don't have electrical issues etc) then the goods are not of merchantable quality and you are entitled to get the problem remediated.

Be reasonable at all times. I would gladly accept a repair under your circumstances and if they couldn't/wouldn't offer me a repair then I would look for a replacement/refund. You do not have to accept anything they offer and can negotiate what you want but if negotiations fail then you will have to go to the small claims court to get it sorted so make sure you keep records of all contact and show yourself to be reasonable at all times (i.e. don't go in spouting the law and "I know my rights" first). I would generally try to resolve the issue verbal at first (if possible) then send a registered letter to the manager then if no or unsatisfactory response go through the SCC.

All of this is based on the assumption that you bought the oven new from a shop/business originally.

EDIT: with regards the manufacturer's warranty - it is an optional extra in which the manufacturer can limit or define claims they will cover in any way they like. They can have it as long or short as they want but they must cover the warranty under the terms specified and it must contain specific information. This warranty has no bearing on (cannot limit) the rights afforded to you by the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980.

jupiter00

Thank you for your quick reply, I phoned the retailer who was most abrupt and wanted to put me in touch with miele serviceman who will charge 115e or 150e for the 'call out'. I did buy this oven new from the cork retailer and when you say repair is it supposed to be free? I won't be offered this anyway, I did get the name of the manager to write to but what can I do without an oven! Waste of money buying a miele oven then, looks like SCC but I'll have to cook in something in the meantime...........very disappointing.

axer

jupiter00 wrote: »

Thank you for your quick reply, I phoned the retailer who was most abrupt and wanted to put me in touch with miele serviceman who will charge 115e or 150e for the 'call out'. I did buy this oven new from the cork retailer and when you say repair is it supposed to be free? I won't be offered this anyway, I did get the name of the manager to write to but what can I do without an oven! Waste of money buying a miele oven then, looks like SCC but I'll have to cook in something in the meantime...........very disappointing.

Yes repair should be free. You will need to write to the manager and show you sent it at least for the small claims court as it would strengthen your case that you are a reasonable person looking for a reasonable remedy.

You can get your machine fixed and then go to the SCC for a refund of this cost but it would be best to have in writing that they are refusing to give you a suitable remedy in writing and that you gave them reasonable opportunity to remedy the problem before getting the issue resolved yourself and going down the legal route to recoup the costs.

knighted_1

axer wrote: »

Yes repair should be free. You will need to write to the manager and show you sent it at least for the small claims court as it would strengthen your case that you are a reasonable person looking for a reasonable remedy.

You can get your machine fixed and then go to the SCC for a refund of this cost but it would be best to have in writing that they are refusing to give you a suitable remedy in writing and that you gave them reasonable opportunity to remedy the problem before getting the issue resolved yourself and going down the legal route to recoup the costs.

terrible advice to be giving someone -

the element is gone in your oven ,simple as that -its a consumable part

the way i will decribe this to make more sense to you is this -

when your car needs new brake shoes after 40k do you rant at the manufacturer to do them for free cause you should get more time out of them ? no

same as an oven ,it needs a new element

dont go down the legal route on this you will lose

look for an independant service engineer to do it cheaper

dudara

knighted_1 wrote: »

terrible advice to be giving someone -

the element is gone in your oven ,simple as that -its a consumable part

the way i will decribe this to make more sense to you is this -

when your car needs new brake shoes after 40k do you rant at the manufacturer to do them for free cause you should get more time out of them ? no

You have a valid point - but the question here is "What is the reasonable lifetime for an oven element?" The OP points out light usage and I would definitely expect an element to last 3+ years. The question is whether an oven technician would agree with me.

knighted_1

i am an oven technician -one areaof my business trades solely with cookers -

if you go to court you will lose

if i put an element into an oven it is gauranteed as a part for 12 mths -printed on most packets - so they are telling you it should last 12 mths

thats a gaurantee -thats fact not implied warrenty

miele gaurantee for two years ,when thats up its up -

UrbanSea

Knighted is right. It isn't the whole oven that is faulty,it's a simple part,costs about 30 or 40 euro,Knighted could clarify that but I think that's about it.
By the way,I have no idea why anyone would buy miele products,bar vacuum cleaners,unless they are just trying to have their kitchen as a show kitchen with the most expensive ovens you can buy that aren't as good as Neff or Bosch,which are cheaper.

slimjimmc

knighted_1 wrote: »

i am an oven technician -one areaof my business trades solely with cookers -

if you go to court you will lose

if i put an element into an oven it is gauranteed as a part for 12 mths -printed on most packets - so they are telling you it should last 12 mths

thats a gaurantee -thats fact not implied warrenty

miele gaurantee for two years ,when thats up its up -

I agree that consumable items cannot be expected to last as long as other components.

As a general principle people should not confuse what a manufacturer guarantees as a minimum lifetime with what the average consumer would reasonably consider is the expected lifetime. The latter tends to carry more weight. If the manufacturer's definition was universally accepted as the standard then the vast majority of consumer products must be over-engineered since they are well past their warranty period.

MunsterCycling

knighted_1 wrote: »

i am an oven technician -one areaof my business trades solely with cookers -

if you go to court you will lose

if i put an element into an oven it is gauranteed as a part for 12 mths -printed on most packets - so they are telling you it should last 12 mths

thats a gaurantee -thats fact not implied warrenty

miele gaurantee for two years ,when thats up its up -

The bolded part is where you expose your limited knowledge of consumer legislation

knighted_1

MunsterCycling wrote: »

The bolded part is where you expose your limited knowledge of consumer legislation

and yet you just post a smart comment instead of sharing your knowledge and enlightening me -

you should have put at the end consumer legislation 'interpretation' then you would be accurate


irish consumer law supercedes european legislation - that legislation states all electric appliances be given 2 year gaurantee ,warrenty is different
thats what miele give -
you have the option to extend that warrenty (in law a gamble,and cant be enforced )by paying extra

people confuse irelands 6 year rule - in this you have 6 years from date of purchase to come back against the retailer/manufacturer if you can prove a fault/defect was present from purchase or within the gaurantee/warrenty period - this does not imply or constitute a 6 year warrenty or gaurantee or an expected life cycle

the oven that the op is asking about still works ,grill fan and most components - it just needs an element

would you sue ford if you brakes need replacing ? car still works ,starts goes just wont stop

how many people actually follow the manufacturers advice and service thier appliances? not many

UrbanSea

I never knew that was how it was outlined in particular,does make sense though.

axer

knighted_1 wrote: »

irish consumer law supercedes european legislation - that legislation states all electric appliances be given 2 year gaurantee ,warrenty is different
thats what miele give -
you have the option to extend that warrenty (in law a gamble,and cant be enforced )by paying extra

Warranty/Guarantee - they are all the same. It is the terms that are given by the manufacturer that count.

knighted_1 wrote: »

people confuse irelands 6 year rule - in this you have 6 years from date of purchase to come back against the retailer/manufacturer if you can prove a fault/defect was present from purchase or within the gaurantee/warrenty period - this does not imply or constitute a 6 year warrenty or gaurantee or an expected life cycle

The 6 year rule is just the statuate of limitations. Expected life cycle is defined as:

(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.

The guarantee/warranty periods are irrelevant to the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980.

knighted_1 wrote: »

the oven that the op is asking about still works ,grill fan and most components - it just needs an element

I would expect an element to last longer than 3 years if it is treated properly and not over used i.e. no grease etc and if all manufacturers recommendations are followed. I do not accept that you should have replace an element every 3 years (or 12 months as you also implied).

knighted_1 wrote: »

would you sue ford if you brakes need replacing ? car still works ,starts goes just wont stop

Comparing brakes with heating elements is apples and oranges. Brakes are designed to actively wear down - its how they work. A heating element should keep working for years if it is used properly. Just because a manufacturer's guarantee/warranty is x months/years doesn't mean that that is the reasonable expectation of the lifetime of the product.

foggy_lad

knighted_1 wrote: »

and yet you just post a smart comment instead of sharing your knowledge and enlightening me -

you should have put at the end consumer legislation 'interpretation' then you would be accurate


irish consumer law supercedes european legislation - that legislation states all electric appliances be given 2 year gaurantee ,warrenty is different
thats what miele give -
you have the option to extend that warrenty (in law a gamble,and cant be enforced )by paying extra

people confuse irelands 6 year rule - in this you have 6 years from date of purchase to come back against the retailer/manufacturer if you can prove a fault/defect was present from purchase or within the gaurantee/warrenty period - this does not imply or constitute a 6 year warrenty or gaurantee or an expected life cycle

the oven that the op is asking about still works ,grill fan and most components - it just needs an element

would you sue ford if you brakes need replacing ? car still works ,starts goes just wont stop

how many people actually follow the manufacturers advice and service thier appliances? not many

you have statutory rights when dealing with any purchase that develops a fault or has a flaw from poor workmanship design manufacture etc. this entitles you to a remedy which you can claim from the person/shop/company that sold you the goods. the manufacturer has no part in your deal/contract of sale with the seller so has NO obligations towards you in any regard.

the seller must offer to repair replace or refund the faulty or flawed goods within a reasonable time if found to be due to faulty goods/workmanship etc

you as the buyer do not have to accept any offer made by the seller but refusing a repair on a 3year old rarely used oven might be seen as unreasonable. a store may try to charge for repairs by using small applience repair companies that charge a minimum call out fee etc but it may not be considered reasonable if the normal lifespan of the product is 5-6years and it requires such an important non-servicible part like an oven element after a couple of years of light use.

knighted_1

please enlighten me further

why is brakes and elements different ?

so how long should i get out of my light bulbs ?

if anyone brought me to court over a three year old oven not heating i would win hands down

if any solicitors are reading this ,would you take this case on a no win no fee basis ? i think not

the key word that you are all missing is 'interpretation'
thats interpretation of consumer law

TouchingVirus

knighted_1 wrote: »

please enlighten me further

why is brakes and elements different ?

Because in the use of one (the brakes) it is actively wearing down. Your element is not wearing down when you use it. A more apt comparison would be to the cooling system of a car. And if a water pump failed after 3 years on my car that I bought brand new and didn't over-use and kept maintained then I'd go to court to get the damage fixed if I had to. After paying such money I wouldn't expect such a critical part to fail. If a knob broke or a bulb went I wouldn't take it back. But an oven without an element is fairly useless any way you look at it

so how long should i get out of my light bulbs ?

It is reasonable to expect a newer bulb to last five years (the energy saver ones) and the tungsten ones maybe a year or two. Part of the reasonable expectation is linked to the price paid for the goods.

if anyone brought me to court over a three year old oven not heating i would win hands down

No, you wouldn't. If I bought a piece of crap 200 euro oven off you then you might. But if I bought a very reputable brand, at considerable cost then you most likely wouldn't win because it would be reasonable that having spent all my money I'm entitled to more than 3 years worth of use.

Think about it, how many home users have replaced their element before? I've had 3 ovens in 24 years, never replaced one element on any of them. The one I'm using now is 10 years old and still going strong and we only paid €500 for it.

If my €500 oven can go for 10 years, and lots of other people's ovens can go for the same, then it's reasonable to expect an oven element to last longer than 3 years.

Since we're not all experts in the oven business, an independent engineers report taking all things into account (brand, model, use etc) might need to be acquired to show that the OP's reasonable assumption is correct. However, personally only deem it necessary if we were talking about an oven 4 or 5 years old (as in, borderline on the reasonable duration requirement).

if any solicitors are reading this ,would you take this case on a no win no fee basis ? i think not

You're not a solicitor

the key word that you are all missing is 'interpretation'
thats interpretation of consumer law

Think of this forum as a little survey of a group of random people. If 90% of the people posting are thinking "Yeah, that's a reasonable expection" then the chances are it is a reasonable expectation. Besides, a lot of the people posting in here have fought with retailers and in the small claims court and thus have experience of this.

It's my opinion that you are clearly biased because your livelihood depends on people not fighting and forking over the cash to you to fix their oven when it breaks.

UrbanSea

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Think of this forum as a little survey of a group of random people. If 90% of the people posting are thinking "Yeah, that's a reasonable expection" then the chances are it is a reasonable expectation. Besides, a lot of the people posting in here have fought with retailers and in the small claims court and thus have experience of this.

It's my opinion that you are clearly biased because your livelihood depends on people not fighting and forking over the cash to you to fix their oven when it breaks.

Yes,that would be 90% of the public that wouldn't work in such an industry. How many will have gone to the small claims court over a cooker element?

And I don't think his opinion is coming out of the blue or something he made up,if someone is in the industry then I'm sure he would no examples of such instances where the consumer has lost,I doubt he came on to this thread to defend a call out fee whilst making up facts.

Cabaal

knighted_1 wrote: »

if any solicitors are reading this ,would you take this case on a no win no fee basis ? i think not

Nobody here is going to use a solicitor, they will instead use small claims court which costs 15e and where the other party will incur much higher costs unless they defend themselves instead of getting their solicitor.

The vast majority of companys especially large one's tend to settle small claims such as 100-300e because its not worth their time defending.

The most a normal consumer has to loose is 15e with small claims,

Cabaal

So apparently 12 months is reasonable for a element in a oven, I'll be testing that this week as my oven element has gone for the SECOND time in 2 years.

I wouldn't mind but I don't even use the thing much, now lets see if knighted_1 argument is true....I don't think it will be

knighted_1

Since we're not all experts in the oven business, an independent engineers report taking all things into account (brand, model, use etc) might need to be acquired to show that the OP's reasonable assumption is correct. However, personally only deem it necessary if we were talking about an oven 4 or 5 years old (as in, borderline on the reasonable duration requirement).




You're not a solicitor



It's my opinion that you are clearly biased because your livelihood depends on people not fighting and forking over the cash to you to fix their oven when it breaks.[/QUOTE]

my livelihood doesnt depend on it ,it exists because of it

i am an independant oven specialist (well most domestic appliances) and i consult on a regular basis for insurance companys ,loss adjusters manufacturers and CONSUMERS ,and have given professional opinion in court actions (from both sides ) so i think i am reasonably entitled to comment on this subject

i never said i was a solictor ,i asked for one to comment

parsi

In my De Dietrich oven there are two elements (grill and oven).

The oven element lasted 10 years.

UrbanSea

Cabaal wrote: »

So apparently 12 months is reasonable for a element in a oven, I'll be testing that this week as my oven element has gone for the SECOND time in 2 years.

I wouldn't mind but I don't even use the thing much, now lets see if knighted_1 argument is true....I don't think it will be

There's a difference in a part being gauranteed for 12 months and it's life expectancy being 12 months.

jupiter00

I thought I'd post latest update from miele in Dublin. They are going to send out an 'engineer' to check the oven to see if it is manufacturer's fault or 'user fault'. I asked what a user fault might be, couldn't be asertained until its examined of course. I asked if I would be paying for this and 'it depends what the engineer would find'. So I didn't feel happy with this arrangement so now I am supposed to get an email to the effect that I won't be charged for this 'call out', its to asertain what is wrong......I better check my email box before the callout.......

Tech Guy Sligo

I'm no Oven engineer but my oven went afew months ago .
What exactly went was the grill and 1 hob elements at the same time
So thought the element went.
Well the oven technician came around and found out it was a oven fuse which burnt out.
So he installed a 1 euro fuse and it was back to usual.

I dont know how much he charged the landlord

Could be something small.
I would quiz the engineer if this could be the issue

knighted_1 are you familar with this happening?
D

knighted_1

yes fairly common nowadays -not really a fuse as we know them ,its a thermal cut out /overheat protector

usually blows when oven/grill overheats for various reasons but most common cause nowadays is grill left on full blast and door is shut in an appliance thats not designed for closed door grilling

post the make and i will know exactly what type of fuse