Transvestite murder in London

deirdre_dub

A transvestite was murdered in London yesterday -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323879/Transvestite-Tube-passenger-pushed-train-woman.html

Might not actually be a transphobic crime as such - it looks like the murder victim was known to the murderer, so there may have been other motives.

Links234

deirdre_dub wrote: »

A transvestite was murdered in London yesterday -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323879/Transvestite-Tube-passenger-pushed-train-woman.html

Might not actually be a transphobic crime as such - it looks like the murder victim was known to the murderer, so there may have been other motives.

I'd worry that "transvestite" isn't correct

In the recent murders of trans women in the US, both Victoria Carmen White and Stacey Blahnik had been misgendered by police reports, their identities stripped away and referred to as men and with male pronouns. I also remember another recent murder in the US where a transwoman was shot but the initial reports were of a "man dressed as a woman"

it wouldn't surprise me if the daily mail would happily pile disrespect on top of a tragedy in their report.

in any case, it is tragic

Louisevb

Most of these stories worldwide you will find here
http://www.tranniehaven.com/Tranniehavenmainpage.html

Unadulterated plug

hotmail.com

Point of the thread is? Murder is wrong?

deirdre_dub

hotmail.com wrote: »

Point of the thread is? Murder is wrong?

The rate of transgenderism is something like 1 in 1,000, so each transphobic murder of a trans person is equivalent to 1,000 murders in the general population.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the trans people reading this know the victim personally - there are few enough of us that we tend to know people from far and wide. I know that I've had lots of social contact with the trans community in the UK.

Trans people are often easily identifiable (HRT doesn't do everything, and in Ireland, it is impossible to get voice training AFAICS), so if there is a rise in transphobic attacks in the UK (and I know some Irish trans people who are heading to London soon), we need to know.

And, yes, I agree with you, murder is wrong.

kirving

It doesn't really work like that, thats like saying that because 1 in 2 people are women, the murder of a woman is equivalent to 2 of the total population.

Anyway, I do agree that murder is wrong.

deirdre_dub

Kevin Irving wrote: »

It doesn't really work like that, thats like saying that because 1 in 2 people are women, the murder of a woman is equivalent to 2 of the total population.

Yes, you are right. If there is a rate of 1 in 1,000 of transgenderism, then the murder of 1 trans person is equivalent to the murder of 999 of the general population.

So if 1 in 2 of the population is female, the the murder of 1 female is equivalent to the murder of 1 of the general population.

My mistake - oops!

D.

electrobi

It seems at least that the victim knew the perpetrator. It's not yet fully established if it was an argument or a silly game(both scenarios given by witnesses). The real question here, if we're talking about transgender(and we do seem to be doing so ITT) is was this in fact a transgender woman or a transvestite? If she was transgendered, the media are not doing her or transgendered people any favours by saying it was a "man in a dress".

Eebs

It become relevant if this was a murder carried out because someone was trans.

Studies also show that people who use 'gay panic' or 'trans panic' as a plea don't get as heavy sentences as those who murder someone and do not use that plea. There is also a disproportionate number of trans people killed and attacked every year - whatever way you cut the numbers.

If murder was undiscriminitory and commited by psychopaths with no agenda to target lesbian, gay and trans people specifically I'd be happy not to have any specific threads. But that's not the case. The very fact that people think LGBT people aren't at higher risk then cis and straight people just shows you need more threads like this.

Wanting to be seen as the same as everyone else, feeling the same as everyone is not the same as being perceived as the same as everyone else.
I feel like people on this board should wake up and realise homophobia and transphoia (often culminating in violence) is a real thing. Just because YOU haven't personally face homophobia or transphobia doesn't make it not real or relevant.

It may 'just' be a murder or it may have had transphobic intent behind it. That's why we're having this thread. Is it ok if we have it now?


Reporting of incidences like this are always rife with misrepresentations and sometimes even if someone has changed their name legally they still print the wrong one. I have a hard time believing it was a game, but maybe. I'm sure the details will come out in the coming days.

livlondon

Unfortunately it was quite a nice person who lost her life on Wednesday

http://www.tvchix.com/view.php?user=sonia_

From the TVChix forums and posted by Annabel-London
http://www.tvchix.com/forum/topic.php?tid=62046&page=2&author=19167#P895557

I am very sorry to have to confirm that the T girl pushed under a train at Kings Cross on Monday evening was a member of this site, my very dear friend Sonia_.

There is no uncertainty here, I have discussed it with the police and am authorised to make this announcement. Her family has already been informed. I have no details of how the case is proceeding, or the exact identity of the person they are holding, but they tell me that they are pursuing no other leads, as there were many witnesses - in fact I am informed that the members of the public present at the incident were very helpful in acting as witnesses.

At this moment there is no knowledge whether this was accidental, deliberate, or trans- phobic. It may be that the woman held is in fact a TS, a friend of Sonia's, but that is yet to be confirmed.

I am sorry to have to publish this tragic news - anyone who knew Sonia will know what an awful loss this is, she was one of the sweetest most generous people it has been my privilege to call a friend, in this T-world and outside.

Rev Hellfire

Eebs wrote: »

It become relevant if this was a murder carried out because someone was trans.

But until that time it remains irrelevant.
I'm sure there's enough prejudice to be dealing without looking to create associations where none exist.

deirdre_dub

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

It become relevant if this was a murder carried out because someone was trans.

But until that time it remains irrelevant.

As I predicted, the victim was known to someone on this forum, and you are calling it irrelevant?!?!?!!!

Rev Hellfire

deirdre_dub wrote: »

As I predicted, the victim was known to someone on this forum, and you are calling it irrelevant?!?!?!!!

No read what I said.

The murder is abhorrent in as of itself. I'm simply saying until motive becomes clear it is premature to label it as anti-transvestite crime.

Eebs

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

No read what I said.

The murder is abhorrent in as of itself. I'm simply saying until motive becomes clear it is premature to label it as anti-transvestite crime.

No one has done that. The title simply states a transvestite was murdered in London.

Is it bothering you that much having the thread here? No one has jumped to any conclusions. In fact in the very FIRST post Deirdre warns people not to immediately jump to that conclusion. So .. what's your point?? I'm unclear of what your real issue is and you're distracting from the point of the thread. It's possible some people here reading this now know this person and want more details also you know.

ETA:

Not to mention we were having an interesting discussion about the medias portrayal of the case also, and the transphobia in that reporting style.

You know, it seems sometimes like there are more posts on this board about why things are posted then actual posts. It's depressing and totally disrupts any semblence of a conversation that was going on.

Links234

Update on this: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/10/28/woman-charged-with-murder-over-trans-tube-death/

http://sexualitymatters.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/kings-cross-identity-of-victim/

Rev Hellfire

Eebs wrote: »

No one has done that. The title simply states a transvestite was murdered in London.

I'm confused I was simply replying to you stating "It become relevant if this was a murder carried out because someone was trans."

Eebs wrote: »

Is it bothering you that much having the thread here?

Please explain to me how I've shown I'm 'bothered' ?

Eebs wrote: »

So .. what's your point??

My point simply is that there is enough proven prejudice without the need to fabricate connections where none may exist. Saying it becomes relevant if its proven that their gender-identify is the motivation is premature not to mention redundant.

Eebs wrote: »

So .. what's your point??
It's possible some people here reading this now know this person and want more details also you know.

I've in no way attempted to censor anyone, please backup claims to the contrary.

Eebs

My point in stating that the thread becomes relevant if it is a transphobic attack was in response to another poster stating what's the point of the thread. That's it. I thought it was a pretty clear point. I still don't understand why you felt the need to comment on it because I'm not fabricating connections that aren't there. Then I highlighted other reasons why it was relevant to have the thread.

This is a massive derail of the original post and your accusing me of fabricating connections when I have clearly not done that. At NO point have I mentioned that this was transphobic or has anyone else. If you've more to discuss with me about this I suggest you PM me.

Summary: Thread relevant lets shut up about it now.

Rev Hellfire

Eebs wrote: »

My point in stating that the thread becomes relevant if it is a transphobic attack was in response to another poster stating what's the point of the thread. That's it. I thought it was a pretty clear point

We've wires crossed, I'm happy to leave it at that.

Healium

EVERY Hallowe'en....



(Sorry, no offence intended )

Links234

Update: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/11/01/trans-woman-remanded-on-charge-of-murdering-trans-lawyer-sonia-burgess/

Louisevb

The issues with this case are purely that Sonia Burgess was gender variant and a lawyer of some standing and she was pushed into the path of the train by another person who is transgendered and part way through her treatment

The press treatment of this person has been transphobic as has her treatment in being sent to a mens prison on remand.. There are issues there which need to be addressed by the UK authorities.

There is a list of websites here detailing with the situation as recently as today
http://www.tranniehaven.com/Tranniehavenmainpage.html

Synalon Etuul

So I guess we can rule out transphobic murder then