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Religious crazies get the knives out for Norris' Presidency bid

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    #62
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    bronte wrote: »
    Oh gee thanks Prinz!

    You're welcome. It was obvious you were going down a dead-end.


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    #63
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    bronte wrote: »
    No artistic license for all then...how lovely.

    God I hate this kind of double standard. As long as one is gay, or a member of a minority, one can get away with saying or producing stuff that the rest of us would be villified for. He had artistic license in writing the play, and I have license to point out the troubling aspects of it. Were a straight man to produce a play involving sex between a man and a 13 y/o girl, and do so in a way that attempted to romanticise such predation, then I would have a similar reaction, and I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with my criticisms.


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    #64
    bronte
    Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    prinz wrote: »
    You're welcome. It was obvious you were going down a dead-end.

    Your humility, as always knows no bounds.

    Someday I'll manage to achieve same.


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    #65
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    prinz wrote: »
    Must be the same sort of thing as when people congratulate Stephen Fry for condemning the RCC for child abuse, and excuse Fry's own earlier play which involves a male teacher's sexual interest in a young teen boy. 'Pleasure lies between the thighs of a young boy' so it went..Must be nuanced.


    It was a play!


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    #66
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Einhard wrote: »
    God I hate this kind of double standard. As long as one is gay, or a member of a minority, one can get away with saying or producing stuff that the rest of us would be villified for. He had artistic license in writing the play, and I have license to point out the troubling aspects of it. Were a straight man to produce a play involving sex between a man and a 13 y/o girl, and do so in a way that attempted to romanticise such predation, then I would have a similar reaction, and I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with my criticisms.

    Did you not get the memo? Stephen Fry is above criticism.


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    #67
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Did you not get the memo? Stephen Fry is above criticism.

    More accurately, certain groups in society are above criticism.


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    #68
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    optogirl wrote: »
    It was a play!

    ...and I am sure you'd be just as quick to defend it, had it been written by a member of the clergy. The underlying point being, there are things people have said/written that they should explain in more detail, the reasoning, the context, the background.


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    #69
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Einhard wrote: »
    I don't think that was the point, but rather that Fry condemned child abuse, and yet wrote a play in which it was portrayed as a positive sexual experience.


    For fictional characters and let's be honest - not all teacher/student relationships are 100% one-sided or unwelcome. The point being made here seems to be that writing a fictional account of something should preclude you from having an opinion on it - ridiculous.


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    #70
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Einhard wrote: »
    He had artistic license in writing the play, and I have license to point out the troubling aspects of it. Were a straight man to produce a play involving sex between a man and a 13 y/o girl, and do so in a way that attempted to romanticise such predation, then I would have a similar reaction, and I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with my criticisms.

    There's a classic novel called Lolita.

    You may not have heard of it.


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    #71
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Did you not get the memo? Stephen Fry is above criticism.


    Lolita? On the Classic shelves in most bookshops


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    #72
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    optogirl wrote: »
    For fictional characters and let's be honest - not all teacher/student relationships are 100% one-sided or unwelcome. The point being made here seems to be that writing a fictional account of something should preclude you from having an opinion on it - ridiculous.

    :confused: Eh, no that's not the point that anyone has been making here. As for the former point re the 100% one-sidedness, I take it you feel that way about most adult-teen 'relationships'/abuse? Seeing as how the vast majority of child sex abuse actually relates to post-pubescent teens, what percentage would you say were welcome?


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    #73
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    These are the exact kind of morons that'll vote for that odious slimeball Bertie Ahern.


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    #74
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Einhard wrote: »
    God I hate this kind of double standard. As long as one is gay, or a member of a minority, one can get away with saying or producing stuff that the rest of us would be villified for. He had artistic license in writing the play, and I have license to point out the troubling aspects of it. Were a straight man to produce a play involving sex between a man and a 13 y/o girl, and do so in a way that attempted to romanticise such predation, then I would have a similar reaction, and I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with my criticisms.


    Lolita? On the Classics shelves of most bookshops


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    #75
    wild_cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    Cat Melodeon wrote: »
    info@campaignforconscience.org

    It would be a terrible shame if this email address somehow ended up getting spammed.

    Hopefully they will be all of a gay persuasion as well.


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    #76
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    There's a classic novel called Lolita.

    You may not have heard of it.
    optogirl wrote: »
    Lolita? On the Classic shelves in most bookshops


    Not only have I heard of it, but I've read it too. Which obviously neither of you have.


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    #77
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    Einhard wrote: »
    God I hate this kind of double standard. As long as one is gay, or a member of a minority, one can get away with saying or producing stuff that the rest of us would be villified for. He had artistic license in writing the play, and I have license to point out the troubling aspects of it. Were a straight man to produce a play involving sex between a man and a 13 y/o girl, and do so in a way that attempted to romanticise such predation, then I would have a similar reaction, and I suspect you wouldn't have a problem with my criticisms.

    No one is stopping you criticising though.


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    #78
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    prinz wrote: »
    :confused: Eh, no that's not the point that anyone has been making here. As for the former point re the 100% one-sidedness, I take it you feel that way about most adult-teen 'relationships'/abuse?


    What does this post mean then?
    Must be the same sort of thing as when people congratulate Stephen Fry for condemning the RCC for child abuse, and excuse Fry's own earlier play which involves a male teacher's sexual interest in a young teen boy.


    And with regard to most adult-teen relationships - No, I said NOT ALL are unwelcome. There are several cases of couples who go on to marry despite one of them having been the others teacher and even in some cases serving time for it. I didn't mention my personal feelings on it because I don't think you can judge every single case of this in exactly the same way. As usual Prinz, you like to pick and choose phrases to pounce on without actually reading people's posts.


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    #79
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    No one is stopping you criticising though.

    I'm not demanding that his plays be censored or blacklisted.


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    #80
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Einhard wrote: »
    Not only have I heard of it, but I've read it too. Which obviously neither of you have.

    Obviously have I not? Where'd you get that from?

    I have read it.

    My point was it was written by a straight man about an adult having sex with an underage girl.


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    #81
    wild_cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    I just reported the facebook site they have linked from their main web page. It seems to be for Enoch Burke he's listed as the "Administrator: Campaign for Conscience"


    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001766582603&v=wall

    Ye should all report it.


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    #82
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Einhard wrote: »
    Not only have I heard of it, but I've read it too. Which obviously neither of you have.


    What? Is that supposed to be an insult? I have read it, not that it means anything. The point we were making is that there have been books written showing relationships like this as a pleasurable experience. That's all.


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    #83
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    optogirl wrote: »
    Lolita? On the Classics shelves of most bookshops

    I see you've discovered how to use copy and paste. Well done.


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    #84
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    Don't presume. I have read it.

    My point was it was written by a straight man about an adult having sex with an underage girl.

    I presumed because nobody who's read Lolita could possibly compare it to a play which is "an honest - if misguided - effort to justify the sexual relationship between a 26-year-old teacher and a teenage boy." The relationship between Humbert and Lolita is a tragic and destructive one, and is never presented in a positive light. Humbert is a despicable character. I don't see how it can possibly be compared with a comic play in which a teacher sexually preys on a 13 y/o boy.


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    #85
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I see you've discovered how to use copy and paste. Well done.


    Pardon?


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    #86
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    optogirl wrote: »
    What? Is that supposed to be an insult? I have read it, not that it means anything. The point we were making is that there have been books written showing relationships like this as a pleasurable experience. That's all.

    You haven't read it. I know that because nobody who has read Lolita could possibly describe the relationship between Humbert and Lolita as a pleasurable one. That's the whole point of the novel. Humbert is a villainous character, but also a tragic one, and is destoryed by his lust for Lolita. It's the very antithesis of pleasure.


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    #87
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Einhard wrote: »
    I presumed because nobody who's read Lolita could possibly compare it to a play which is "an honest - if misguided - effort to justify the sexual relationship between a 26-year-old teacher and a teenage boy." The relationship between Humbert and Lolita is a tragic and destructive one, and is never presented in a positive light. Humbert is a despicable character. I don't see how it can possibly be compared with a comic play in which a teacher sexually preys on a 13 y/o boy.


    Of course they are comparable - aside from the fact that Lolita has her part to play in Humbert's seduction, the point was that a straight man DID write a book about the relationship between an adult male and a female child.


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    #88
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Einhard wrote: »
    I presumed because nobody who's read Lolita could possibly compare it to a play which is "an honest - if misguided - effort to justify the sexual relationship between a 26-year-old teacher and a teenage boy." The relationship between Humbert and Lolita is a tragic and destructive one, and is never presented in a positive light. Humbert is a despicable character. I don't see how it can possibly be compared with a comic play in which a teacher sexually preys on a 13 y/o boy.

    I haven't read the play so I have no idea how it portrays the teacher.


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    #89
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭optogirl


    Einhard wrote: »
    You haven't read it. I know that because nobody who has read Lolita could possibly describe the relationship between Humbert and Lolita as a pleasurable one. That's the whole point of the novel. Humbert is a villainous character, but also a tragic one, and is destoryed by his lust for Lolita. It's the very antithesis of pleasure.


    I don't agree - I think it very cleverly depicts how Humbert's desires are manipulated by Lolita - of course he is villainous by virtue of acting on them, he is the adult after all, but it blurs the lines between precocious flirtation of a child and the sexuality of a woman


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    #90
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    optogirl wrote: »
    What does this post mean then?

    Where did I say Stephen Fry must be precluded from having an opinion? :confused: THAT post refers specifically not to Stephen Fry but rather to the other people who will champion anything, on a shifting basis which basically boils down to a concept of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'... well, that's not always the case.

    As for the second part.... I asked you what percentage of such relationships you thought are welcome? If not all are unwelcome, hazard a guess at what 'not all' means? It's ironic that you would choose not to judge every single case the same way since that is exactly what others, Mr Fry included, seem addicted to doing.


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    #91
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    I haven't read the play so I have no idea how it portrays the teacher.

    The teacher is a grotesque, apparently. I was reading about it on google. Latin! or Boys and Tobacco. He's not painted remotely sympathetically.-That's from one review, another one calls it'Penned when Fry was a public school stripling, it's a toast to love and life and an honest - if misguided - effort to justify the sexual relationship between a 26-year-old teacher and a teenage boy.'


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