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Wiring External Timer

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  • 28-10-2010 8:37pm
    #1
    JOHNPT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭


    I want to wire an external APT timer for the boiler shown. There is a fused spur beside boiler but not too sure on wiring though. I know boiler needs a permanent live and switch live just not sure which terminal they go to. There is no external stat. Wiring diagram is on page 14 of enclosed file - any help would be appreciated. thanks.
    http://www.huntheat.com.au/admin/upload/Format34%20Installation%20Instructions%20AUST.pdf


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    #2
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    not familiar with gas

    it may be a 240v 'call loop' rather a switched live

    so you may need a timer with a separate contact or a wireless PS


    there's no timing on the boiler at all-no?


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    #3
    JOHNPT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭JOHNPT


    No timer on boiler but it says in manual you can buy a timer and fit it in on boiler. Maybe u can fit an external timer? When i connected live and neutral to L and N the boiler switches on. I assumed i would need a switch live somewhere. Whats a call loop.


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    #4
    indie armada
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭indie armada


    i think the perminant live is to keep the pump circulating after the boiler is switched off and is controled by a stat in the boiler, i have gas and im fairly sure thats how mine opperates.


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    #5
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    you'll prob need to take a 2-core from boiler for the timing/stat contact
    (i don't think you can give it a switched live)

    supply from spur to boiler-as you've already done

    and a supply from spur to timer/stat etc. if required

    heating switched spur -isolates everything


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    #6
    JOHNPT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭JOHNPT


    Thanks Mceede. Not sure i follow. There is no external stat. I know how wire timer from spur. I presumed there would be permanent live from spur to boiler and switch live from timer to boiler? Still unsure what goes where.


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    #7
    indie armada
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭indie armada


    could you use connections 2&4 and run a 4x2.5 nym to the timer from those contacts and common the neutral.


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    #8
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,745 ✭✭✭meercat


    Remove link 2-4
    feed timer off 4(live in on clock)
    neutral off neutral
    switch wire (live out on clock)to 2


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    #9
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    4 is linked to feed on boiler -so you can power clock from that-so APT will do

    as the guys already said:)i didn't spot it


    (a switched live+perm feed to boiler would do -but i would use the link provided to power the timer for warranty purposes etc.)


    stat,timer ,programmable stat -you can use any of these as long as you follow diagram


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    #10
    JOHNPT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭JOHNPT


    I wired that up as ye described - working perfect now. Thanks vey much for all the advice


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    #11
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    indie armada wrote: »
    i think the perminant live is to keep the pump circulating after the boiler is switched off and is controled by a stat in the boiler, i have gas and im fairly sure thats how mine opperates.

    That is how they operate alright, to stop the water boiling in the exchanger after the boiler stops heating.

    The control loop is used rather than a switched live so that any safety devices gas boilers may have will be on the control loop feed in the boiler and these may be bypassed by just feeding the control devices (timeclock contacts in this case) from the spur.
    Although in this case it looks like terminal 4 is just fed direct from the supply in.


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    #12
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    ya switched live would do but still

    safer to stick to schematic exactly-in case of warranty issues


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    #13
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    M cebee wrote: »
    ya switched live would do but still

    safer to stick to schematic exactly-in case of warranty issues

    Do you do much with the oil boilers, they dont seem to need to keep circulating as much after they stop like the gas ones do, or do they,


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    #14
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    i've done a lot of wiring and connecting oil and geothermal

    haven't much interest in boilers themselves:)


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    #15
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Neither have i, or electrical work, but i still used to do it.


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    #16
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    nothing stopping ya

    sure ya know as much as anyone else here:)


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    #17
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Its a good place to pick up a few ideas the boards.


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    #18
    ntpm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭ntpm


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Do you do much with the oil boilers, they dont seem to need to keep circulating as much after they stop like the gas ones do, or do they,


    Generally speaking oil boilers have bigger heatexchangers and waterways. That is why they never need perminent lives for "Pump Overun"( as it is termed in Gas boilers).

    However some newer/ high efficiency oil boilers require a perminent live for internal frost stat or Overheat/pump over run stat.
    Many indoor/utility/kitchen boilers ask for perminet lives.

    I always tend to allow 4 core cabling to oil boilers just in case.
    Also will need perminent live for an optional frost stat for many cabin packs orexternal boiler rooms.


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    #19
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    ntpm wrote: »
    Generally speaking oil boilers have bigger heatexchangers and waterways. That is why they never need perminent lives for "Pump Overun"( as it is termed in Gas boilers).

    Yes they have heavier exchangers which does`t cut out the overheat stat like a gas one does. I connected a few bigger ones in schools etc which had the over run on the pumps alright. But its still surprising they dont all have an over-run. A pipe stat can be used to do it, with a relay closing across the stat when starting from cold.


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    #20
    ntpm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭ntpm


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yes they have heavier exchangers which does`t cut out the overheat stat like a gas one does. I connected a few bigger ones in schools etc which had the over run on the pumps alright. But its still surprising they dont all have an over-run. A pipe stat can be used to do it, with a relay closing across the stat when starting from cold.


    Most Gas boiler have internal bypass fitted or recommend external must be fitted. for pump overrun.
    Gas regs are fairly strict and most (GAS based) plumbers/electrician are up to speed with good working practice.

    Most oil installers (plumbers/electricians) are still "Old School"
    Oil boiler manufactures literature do give good advise on different pipework options/ electrical drawings and say controls should comply with current reg but alot of installers believe that they are not necessary.

    Most oil boiler I go to have issues with correct control wiring. Fused spur, boiler interlock etc so asking for additional stats and relays is asking for too much.:rolleyes:

    OIL electrics = KISS...Keep it simple stupid ( no insult intended)


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    #21
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    a lot of the oil use a call-loop+supply

    some use a feed+switched live

    i always thought gas was simpler than oil-but there ya go:)


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    #22
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Yea but the bypass is just a route for the water to circulate while the pump over runs, what i was saying is a lot of them did`t have a simple facility for the boiler water pump to continue running. Its been a fair while since i connected an oil boiler at this stage though.


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    #23
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    M cede:
    you'll prob need to take a 2-core from boiler for the timing/stat contact
    (i don't think you can give it a switched live)
    Yes, I would agree. What you need is a timer with a volt free contact.

    Sometimes the wire that switches on and off the boiler operates at a voltage that is much less than mains voltage.
    supply from spur to boiler-as you've already done

    and a supply from spur to timer/stat etc. if required

    heating switched spur -isolates everything
    +1


    Most of the gas and oil boilers I see need pump over run. easy to check if your boiler needs/has this. Just switch it on for about 20 min and then off and see if the pump keeps running.


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    #24
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yea but the bypass is just a route for the water to circulate while the pump over runs, what i was saying is a lot of them did`t have a simple facility for the boiler water pump to continue running. Its been a fair while since i connected an oil boiler at this stage though.


    perm feed and bypass for overrun and prob. frost protection for the boiler itself (if it has it)


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    #25
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    2011 wrote: »
    M cede:
    Yes, I would agree. What you need is a timer with a volt free contact.

    Sometimes the wire that switches on and off the boiler operates at a voltage that is much less than mains voltage.


    +1


    Most of the gas and oil boilers I see need pump over run. easy to check if your boiler needs/has this. Just switch it on for about 20 min and then off and see if the pump keeps running.


    not needed here but still-a supply and control pair

    ie: 5-core to timer or controls is prob the way i would wire it


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    #26
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »

    Yes, I would agree. What you need is a timer with a volt free contact.

    Sometimes the wire that switches on and off the boiler operates at a voltage that is much less than mains voltage

    Yes this is a point worth noting as to using the boilers out and return control loop, although in the case of the boiler the OP was talking about, a switched feed from timer would of worked perfect. But if there is loop out and return set of terminals this should be used through volt free contacts on the timer, or in a complete properly controlled system, through the actuator valve contacts.


    Most of the gas and oil boilers I see need pump over run. easy to check if your boiler needs/has this. Just switch it on for about 20 min and then off and see if the pump keeps running.

    That was my point especially on oil boilers i had connected in the past, its been a few years since i have. I used to put a pipe stat controlling the pump so it would run on. But all the gas boilers i have connected had this in conjunction with a control loop set of terminals.

    These were all system boilers though, which means they have everything in the one unit, burner, pump, pressure vessel. over pressure water release, pump over-run etc. So these system boilers will have the pump over-run as part of their internal controls.


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