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A 5 Billion Metro subway to Swords!
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Metro North is an essential piece of infrastructure that will pay for itself. The oldest line on the London underground is something like 150 years, and is still in use. If we get that sort of use out of it, it will pay for itself many times over.
London is a massive city. Dublin is nothing like it whatsoever.The arguements against it don't really stack up. Anyone who regularly uses buses knows that they are frequently late, and have to compete with other road traffic. You also don't know when the next bus will arrive. An underground solves these problems, and I hope that MN will be the start of an actual underground system in Dublin. Would a bus be able to get you from the airport to the city in 20 minutes at rush hour?
Poor service > no service. I tell ye what, convince Bus Eireann to run a small commuter service for the north Leitrim area to Sligo and I'll say nothing more about your metro. As it stands, if I miss the last but to Enniskillen at 3:45 p.m. I'm either hitching home or paying €30-40 for a taxi.
For foreign companies like Gamma?People complaining about it saying we don't need a line from Swords to the city forget that it will also serve Drumcondra, DCU, the Mater hospital, and Ballymun, to name but a few. It will create thousands of jobs,Anytime this topic comes up, I'm always amazed at the arguements against it. Do people who are opposed complain as much about the 50 billion bank bailout? The 30 billion that has gone into Anglo that will never be seen again?
Well this is it, isn't it? We're going to be spending a fortune on a new metro system while the country is looking at years of debt because our government bailed out the banks. Now you trust them with your money to build a metro system that's not even particularly needed?
I'm not angry because they are investing in infrastructure. I'm angry because they're investing it all in Dublin once again and at a time when our country is in massive debt. Why wasn't this built when the country was making billions? Where'd all that money go?0 -
you can pay for it then!! What spa signs off everytime?
I'm in Dublin, and running a business in Dublin, so I will be paying for it. Not only that, but the major works necessary will actually be disrupting my daily life.
Do you have anything to add to the thread bar these rather silly interjections?
regards,
Scofflaw0 -
why does it cost so much?, some underground train tunnels in use in london today were built in victorian times! it's not cutting edge technology were talking here.
dig a big trench, drop in a load of pre molded concrete tunnel lego style modules, cover it back over, lash a track and signal wires inside, you're done. no planning BS, no architect designs, no consultant contractor companies, just roll up the sleeves, grab a shovel and build the thing an a couple months for an honest wage. when yuo're done do it for every suburb of dublin and major city in the country. it's 2010 for christsake. if we can't have solar power and flying cars, the least I think our generation is an antique underground, hell, we built them for every city in england no bother, yet can't be arsed doing it for ourselves?
By the way, reclaiming the profits from the corrib gas given away to shell for free would pay for this project 50 time over.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »Dublin does not have a massive public transport system. It has an embarrassingly bad transport system, especially considering that it is the capital city of a Western European country, and is home to one of Europe's few economically successful airlines.
Just because you do not use public transport does not mean that thousands of other people would not. Whenever I got on the Luas, Dart, or took the train from Belfast or Newry into the city during rush hour, it was always packed.
Taking the bus from the airport/Swords area into Dublin city center is a joke. Traffic is often horrible, and god help you if you have to take the #16. :mad: And it's a shame, because the rent is much cheaper around there.
Honestly, have you used public transport in any other major city? Do you really not see how awful Dublin's system is?
I lived in Swords for about four years and used the bus almost every day. I took the bus when I was working on the windmill in Skerries. I took the bus when I worked the late shift in Abrakebabra at the Ha'penny bridge. I never had a problem because I planned for the traffic :eek: and took an earlier bus.
I now live in Manorhamilton, 25 km from Sligo but I can't get a job in Sligo. Why? Because the first bus to Sligo is at 10:15 and the last bus home is 3:45. Why is that? Because Bus Eireann says it would cost too much to run a commuter route for Glencar, Manorhamilton, and Dromahair even though they charge €12.50 for a return ticket for a 25 km journey.
I would love to use public transport as I have always done but it just does not exist in my area. The priority in this country has always been Dublin and the rest of the country is getting sick of it, especially when there was so much money flying around the last 15 years.0 -
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PanchoVilla wrote: »London is a massive city. Dublin is nothing like it whatsoever.
Dublin is larger than Bilbao, yet Bilbao and the greater city region have an excellent public transport system which includes two subway lines, a tram line, intercity trains and buses, and intracity bus and rail networks. And it is clean and orderly; the subway looks brand new, and every train and bus stop has a digital timetable telling you when the next one will be arriving.PanchoVilla wrote: »Poor service > no service. I tell ye what, convince Bus Eireann to run a small commuter service for the north Leitrim area to Sligo and I'll say nothing more about your metro. As it stands, if I miss the last but to Enniskillen at 3:45 p.m. I'm either hitching home or paying €30-40 for a taxi.
So a system that serves over a million people should be held up for a busline to a city of under 13,000? That makes no sense at all.PanchoVilla wrote: »I'm not angry because they are investing in infrastructure. I'm angry because they're investing it all in Dublin once again and at a time when our country is in massive debt. Why wasn't this built when the country was making billions? Where'd all that money go?
I agree that this should have been built 10 years ago, but given that a quarter of the Irish population lives in Greater Dublin, and it is the administrative and economic capital of the country, it absolutely needs to have a well-functioning transit system. And it doesn't.0 -
PanchoVilla wrote: »I lived in Swords for about four years and used the bus almost every day. I took the bus when I was working on the windmill in Skerries. I took the bus when I worked the late shift in Abrakebabra at the Ha'penny bridge. I never had a problem because I planned for the traffic :eek: and took an earlier bus.
I now live in Manorhamilton, 25 km from Sligo but I can't get a job in Sligo. Why? Because the first bus to Sligo is at 10:15 and the last bus home is 3:45. Why is that? Because Bus Eireann says it would cost too much to run a commuter route for Glencar, Manorhamilton, and Dromahair even though they charge €12.50 for a return ticket for a 25 km journey.
I would love to use public transport as I have always done but it just does not exist in my area. The priority in this country has always been Dublin and the rest of the country is getting sick of it, especially when there was so much money flying around the last 15 years.
The priority is Dublin because that's where the most people live in the most concentrated area. Dublin has a population density of 1200 people per sq km, Leitrim has a population density of 16 per sq km, Sligo only twice that. Swords alone has a greater population than the whole of Leitrim, and 60% that of the whole of Sligo.
Sure, Bus Eireann could do with updating its schedules from the agricultural timetable, but there's no point arguing that Dublin benefits "disproportionately" from investment - it gets investment in proportion to its population, and so do the other parts of the country. They just don't have the population numbers or density to make some things work, and public transport is one of those things - per euro invested, you get a lot less service, because the people are more spread out. It's a mathematical issue, not a political one.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »Dublin is larger than Bilbao, yet Bilbao and the greater city region have an excellent public transport system which includes two subway lines, a tram line, intercity trains and buses, and intracity bus and rail networks. And it is clean and orderly; the subway looks brand new, and every train and bus stop has a digital timetable telling you when the next one will be arriving.
You can't compare Bilbao with Dublin. It's a wealthy city run by people who actually have pride in where they live. Incompetence, greed and corruption are not a problem there like they are here.So a system that serves over a million people should be held up for a busline to a city of under 13,000? That makes no sense at all.
The fact I can't get a job in a town 25 km away because of an inadequate public transportation system makes no sense at all. And let's be honest, the metro will not serve over a million people. The only time the metro will be useful is during rush hour, the rest of the time it will be empty just like buses in Dublin.I agree that this should have been built 10 years ago, but given that a quarter of the Irish population lives in Greater Dublin, and it is the administrative and economic capital of the country, it absolutely needs to have a well-functioning transit system. And it doesn't.
And what about trying to get people to move out of Dublin instead by building up the rest of the country? Or will we just build up Dublin until it reaches Athlone?0 -
To be honest I would say the most glaring inequality in investment and spending would be between north and south Dublin.
However I can't see the reason for spending x billions on a subway system when they don't even have conductors to make sure the bus drivers leave on time.
Any comparison with London is not helpful at all as it has 4 times the population density of Dublin, Dublin is not a high density city outside the (relatively small) city centre
sorry not an infrastructure example
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/1117/1224258977793.html0 -
The priority is Dublin because that's where the most people live in the most concentrated area. Dublin has a population density of 1200 people per sq km, Leitrim has a population density of 16 per sq km, Sligo only twice that. Swords alone has a greater population than the whole of Leitrim, and 60% that of the whole of Sligo.
Sure, Bus Eireann could do with updating its schedules from the agricultural timetable, but there's no point arguing that Dublin benefits "disproportionately" from investment - it gets investment in proportion to its population, and so do the other parts of the country. They just don't have the population numbers or density to make some things work, and public transport is one of those things - per euro invested, you get a lot less service, because the people are more spread out. It's a mathematical issue, not a political one.
cordially,
Scofflaw
Well, it goes back to the idea that people won't move to an area if there are no jobs, no social services, etc. It's the same old story of inequality and uneven distribution of wealth. Dublin itself suffers greatly from this when you look at areas like D1, Ballymun or Finglas. Tallagh used to be a nightmare but now that there's been some money spent to encourage growth it's slowly turning the corner. Meanwhile D2, D4 and southeast Dublin holds a disproportionate amount of wealth and gets the greatest amount of funding.0 -
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PanchoVilla wrote: »You can't compare Bilbao with Dublin. It's a wealthy city run by people who actually have pride in where they live. Incompetence, greed and corruption are not a problem there like they are here.
If there had been any real political will over the last 20 years, Dublin could have a similar system right now. But the interests of the city always get subsumed in the Dail, as local government has no real control, and the transport system really needs to be planned at a regional level. Given all of the junkets that Irish politicians go on, you 'd think they would learn something about how other countries manage to do these sorts of things and make it work.
I also think the "you can't compare" arguments about Dublin and Ireland in general are getting tiresome. Dublin is the capital, Ireland is a member of the EU, and it's time for everyone to put their big boy trousers on and expect - better yet, demand - that Ireland function like a modern country.PanchoVilla wrote: »The fact I can't get a job in a town 25 km away because of an inadequate public transportation system makes no sense at all. And let's be honest, the metro will not serve over a million people. The only time the metro will be useful is during rush hour, the rest of the time it will be empty just like buses in Dublin.
In most cities with rapid transit, they are not full during off-peak hours. But the airport line will always have people on it.PanchoVilla wrote: »And what about trying to get people to move out of Dublin instead by building up the rest of the country? Or will we just build up Dublin until it reaches Athlone?
Because from a planning and resource perspective, it makes sense to encourage more people concentrated in a given area: it's easier to provide public goods, and it is more efficient in terms of infrastructure. Dublin could actually be a lot more dense than it is, but most people with children want to buy a house rather than live in an apartment, so there will always be quite a bit of sprawl.0 -
Pardon me for my lack of knowledge in Political issues but have to ask having read the thread. If the oppostion do get into power do they have any mandate to stop Metro North project or is it a case when the contract has been signed that's it there's no going back? Same with the proposed Children's hospital?0
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Joey the lips wrote: »I think the whole project is a brilliant idea. I think metro north is long overdue and i think infrastructure projects like this rival the hoover dam built in the great depression of the u.s.:D
Well you can stay and pay for it through penal taxes, I wont!:mad:0 -
PanchoVilla wrote: »The only time the metro will be useful is during rush hour, the rest of the time it will be empty just like buses in Dublin.
But yet your private bus service to bring you around the parts of Sligo you want to move between will be full to bursting all day?
If theres a scope for such a profitable service there, why is no private comapny offering it? Surely a Taxi company would make a killign ferryign people?
I also refuse to belive you "can't" get a job 25km away because the government wont provide you with a bus. There are othe rmodes of transport.
Since people are giving out about their taxes being spent in Dublin, how about every county runs on it's own? Every penny spent in Sligo for instance comes from taxes collected there. Sure all the billiions you'll have now can go towards massive job creation and population growth.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »If there had been any real political will over the last 20 years, Dublin could have a similar system right now. But the interests of the city always get subsumed in the Dail, as local government has no real control, and the transport system really needs to be planned at a regional level. Given all of the junkets that Irish politicians go on, you 'd think they would learn something about how other countries manage to do these sorts of things and make it work.
I also think the "you can't compare" arguments about Dublin and Ireland in general are getting tiresome. Dublin is the capital, Ireland is a member of the EU, and it's time for everyone to put their big boy trousers on and expect - better yet, demand - that Ireland function like a modern country.
In most cities with rapid transit, they are not full during off-peak hours. But the airport line will always have people on it.
Because from a planning and resource perspective, it makes sense to encourage more people concentrated in a given area: it's easier to provide public goods, and it is more efficient in terms of infrastructure. Dublin could actually be a lot more dense than it is, but most people with children want to buy a house rather than live in an apartment, so there will always be quite a bit of sprawl.
I'm all for the modernization of our country but it needs to include the entire country. For too long the government has prioritized the capital to the detriment of the rest of the country. A massive amount of money has gone into the M1, M4, M50, Luas, etc. but it's still not enough. Meanwhile the rest of the country has been left to stagnate. This metro is just another example of how the government's priority is, and has always been, Dublin.
I think every county/region should be responsible for collecting and spending it's own VAT like they do in the U.S., then maybe we'd have a more even distribution of funding. It makes no sense to send all the tax collected in one region to Dublin just to have it sent back again. We need decentralization in the true sense of the word, not just sending civil servants halfway across the country to still be working for Dublin.0 -
Now is the perfect time to start investing in these sort of projects.
The major bids will go out to EU tender, I hope an Irish company can win them.
Near our area, the M7 bid went to a Portugeese firm and it would take me a while to post all the details on their sudden demise and the sub contractors left unpaid and the claims lodged against Limerick and Tipp North councils.
A right mess, so hope this goes better.
The Port Tunnel workers have experience and we don't lack expertise. And can hire in experts if needed.
Sure Ardnacrusha was one of the largest if not the largest hydro electric plants in Europe in the 1920's and the State was broke back then. A risk, a risk for the future and it still works.
As another poster stated, there are London underground lines build in the 19th century and still used. Metro North will last decades and even more
Will we see such vision again as WT Cosgrave and his men. Btw, Minister for Finance Ernst Blythe cut the pension back then and it's still remembered 90 years later :eek:0 -
Now we've found the reason you're against itPanchoVilla wrote: »I'll probably never even use the damn thing!
No it doesn't. Dublin is an absolute nightmare to get around.PanchoVilla wrote: »I've used the Luas three times since it's been built. Dublin already has a massive public transportation system
I asked this question before, so now I'll ask you directly. Have you complained about the 30 billion given to Anglo (which we'll never see again) as much as you have complained about Metro North?0 -
A metro connecting Dublin Airport (and swords, which is about as big as Galway City in population terms anyway!) with the capital, and site of the future national childrens hospital, DCU etc. is of national importance. It will even benefit people in Gamway travelling to those places!PanchoVilla wrote: »There's a Dart line about 5 km east of the airport. Anyone with a bit of cop on would just build a road connecting the airport to Portmarnock station and have a shuttle service running and spend those billions elsewhere in the country. Turn on the radio during rush hour and the Headford Rd. is always jam packed. A rail would encourage people to commute and free up the traffic in Galway city. The western line could be used to transport goods as well as people to keep the money coming in.0 -
They were closed just as fast as they could be by the new rural Irish elite who have dominated Irish politics for decades. The trams were a "British thing", so were gotten rid of to make space road vehicles. Idiots!crayolastereo wrote: »Sometime back in the 60s they went and closed everything. We had loads of trams everywhere too and they got rid of them for some reason.
Also, the top men of the GSR became the top men of CIE and they quite literally hated the DUTC (Dublin United Tramways Company). They probably hated it because it was an efficient system that provided a ZONAL system which allowed transfers within the zone paid for (same as London or Berlin or Munich today). CIE then scrapped as much of the great work of the DUTC as quickly as they could, replacing services with buses and stage fares (no transfers allowed to this day for a cash fare paid to the driver).
Dublin public transport went from one of the best systems in Europe to one of the worst, thanks largely to a rural mindset which viewed Dublin with massive suspicion, long after independence and the Lord Lieutenant's departure. It is clear from this thread that that is still the case with some people.0 -
PanchoVilla wrote: »And let's be honest, the metro will not serve over a million people. The only time the metro will be useful is during rush hour, the rest of the time it will be empty just like buses in Dublin.
The Dart and Luas are quite busy even late at night. Several bus routes on busy corridors can be SRO in the evenings. When you lived in Dublin, you lived in a suburb and worked in a village far outside the city - you cannot say what the buses are like in busier areas.And what about trying to get people to move out of Dublin instead by building up the rest of the country? Or will we just build up Dublin until it reaches Athlone?
We've been doing that for years. There have been infrastructure projects that failed cost benefit analysis and went ahead. There have been grants for setting up businesses in the west. Dublin airport runway was deliberately stunted so Shannon would have the only runway capable of taking fully laden cargo planes. Air traffic agreements with the US forced planes to stopover in Shannon, long after there were no technical reasons for that. You've been shown a graph describing how much money leaves GDA for the western seaboard. What more do you want?RDM_83 again wrote: »However I can't see the reason for spending x billions on a subway system when they don't even have conductors to make sure the bus drivers leave on time.
Apart from the fact that your argument has absolutely nothing to do with the thread, conductors were removed to save money. The new RTIS system currently allows inspectors to see each and every bus in the city and ensure it leaves on time.0 -
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feelingstressed
Now is the perfect time to start investing in these sort of projects.
The major bids will go out to EU tender, I hope an Irish company can win them.
Agreed we need projects but maybe not this project.
Automated cars are coming soon. Google and various DARPA projects have them. Cars could drive a simulated urban environment 2 years ago. In 2016 computers will be 16 times more powerful.
We need infrastructure but metros will not be needed when autonomous cars are here.0 -
PanchoVilla wrote: »I think every county/region should be responsible for collecting and spending it's own VAT like they do in the U.S., then maybe we'd have a more even distribution of funding. It makes no sense to send all the tax collected in one region to Dublin just to have it sent back again. We need decentralization in the true sense of the word, not just sending civil servants halfway across the country to still be working for Dublin.
The U.S. does not have VAT. There are federal income taxes and states set their own income and consumption (sales) taxes. They also set their own transport policies, so people in Chicago do not need permission from people in rural Montana if they want to extend public transport services.feelingstressed wrote: »Will we see such vision again as WT Cosgrave and his men. Btw, Minister for Finance Ernst Blythe cut the pension back then and it's still remembered 90 years later :eek:
I think lack of vision is one of the main problems in a lot of countries today, the US and Ireland included. In most Asian countries, when there is new construction, the infrastructure precedes the residential development; in Ireland and the US it is the opposite. Ireland really missed a golden opportunity over the last 20 years: imagine if Dublin Airport had been turned into an international hub, there was high-speed rail connecting major cities, and new hospitals were clustered with universities and biomedical research centers? Instead most of the gains went to consumption, rather than investment.0 -
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markpb
Autonomous cars do not solve the same problem as metro - they are not mass-transit systems.
They can be a mass transit system like taxis are. Call one up it brings you where you want then heads it off like a taxi (possible to get recharged). You then do not have to use up all your space as car parks. Because you are not driving you can read or sleep or whatever like on public transport but without getting sneezed on.
Also autonomous electric vehicles would produce far less carbon than a metro journey. The video here describes the scheme and the carbon usage.0 -
Question for the malcontents. Name me one other European capital that doesn't have a direct rail link from the airport to the city centre?
I was in Paris recently and commented how fundamentally fantastic for the quality of life the Metro and RER system is. You can be anywhere in the broader Paris metropolitan area, the size of Leinster, in 40 mins. Think how much easier life would be if you could get from Portlaoise to Dublin and then get a metro to your office for €4 in under half an hour.
Now that system didn't happen by accident and most certainly wasn't cheap to build up front.
But it works, and works at a profit and Parisians could not cope without it.0 -
They can be a mass transit system like taxis are. Call one up it brings you where you want then heads it off like a taxi (possible to get recharged).
You're mixing up public transport with mass transit. Cars, by their very design, cannot be mass transit. This poster shows how big the difference is.0 -
A metro connecting Dublin Airport (and swords, which is about as big as Galway City in population terms anyway!) with the capital, and site of the future national childrens hospital, DCU etc. is of national importance. It will even benefit people in Gamway travelling to those places!
if built properly i'd be strongly in favour, last night on radio green's were saying cost would be no more than 3 billion.
there's a huge number of people snailing through traffic jams from swords, ashbourne, ratoath, rush, lusk etc into the city centre each day. There are 15,000 staff and students in dcu which is a nightmare to get to. there's mater hospital, Beaumont Hospital, the airport.
however the issues with existing Luas and dart services and toll roads need to be addressed, namely no interconnection between routes, completely inadequate free parking facilities, no clauses for operators whereby state guarantees it will make up any losses on the route.
we've ploughed enough cash into the banks with no sign of there ever being a payback, i think foresight needs to be shown to ensure we have the necessary infrastructures in place for 5-10 years time when the economy starts to recover and grow again.0 -
Public transport (also public transportation, public transit, or mass transit) is a shared passenger transportation service which is available for use by the general public as distinct from modes such as Taxicab and car pooling which are not shared by strangers without private arrangement.markpb
Cars, by their very design, cannot be mass transit
Cars you would call when you need them that are the right size for the number of passengers, do not have to be parked next to where you work and that can be packed more densely into streets make the picture an inaccurate one for pay per trip autonomous cars. This system may not be exactly the same as a mass transit one but it it transports the mass of people where they want to go is that a problem? Even if the autonomous vehicles were public transport minibuses you could still have more of them working all the time safely in a way that makes a metro less useful0 -
Cars you would call when you need them that are the right size for the number of passengers, do not have to be parked next to where you work and that can be packed more densely into streets make the picture an inaccurate one for pay per trip autonomous cars. This system may not be exactly the same as a mass transit one but it it transports the mass of people where they want to go is that a problem? Even if the autonomous vehicles were public transport minibuses you could still have more of them working all the time safely in a way that makes a metro less useful
Yes it's a problem because Dublin is an old city with narrow streets. The issue isn't just getting where you want to go, the issue is also doing so relatively quickly and reliably, which is what rapid mass transit does. And maybe I'm missing something, but how is this any different from a taxi system, other than the fact that you could perhaps enjoy the ride in peace?0 -
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PanchoVilla wrote: »I'm all for the modernization of our country but it needs to include the entire country. For too long the government has prioritized the capital to the detriment of the rest of the country. A massive amount of money has gone into the M1, M4, M50, Luas, etc. but it's still not enough. Meanwhile the rest of the country has been left to stagnate. This metro is just another example of how the government's priority is, and has always been, Dublin..
Explain Shannon then.
You do understand the simple premise that more money goes to Dublin because more people live there? You made a choice to move to a rural backwater. If it didn't dawn on you that there might not be a bullet train station in your village, I fail to see why the rest of the country should suffer.0
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