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The casual racism in the conspiracy theories forum
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29-10-2010 2:30am#1I should explain from the outset I'm currently sitting out a month long ban for "implying" another poster is a Nazi on a conspiracy theory forum.
I have followed all the channels and now I feel I am right and justified in raising this to the rest of the community that the conspiracy theory forum is now a breeding ground for the kind of vile racism that would have no place in any other forum on this site, but is apparently protected by the Mods in the Conspiracy theory forum.
In a thread entitled "CNN journalist fired for telling the truth about of the Jews
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056050876
a poster by the name of Brown Bomber Says and I quoteWhat should be done:
Transparency.Of course its working on the premise that Jewish people are heavily influential in the media industry in the US
So this poster is suggesting that we need more transparency over which "jews" have jobs in the media.
Now I'm paraphrasing here, but I essentially said something along the lines that would the poster like jews to wear a special badge identifying jews.
Look I'm aware of Godwin's law, and the emotive nature of calling someone a Nazi, but when someone is literally suggesting that Jews clearly identify themselves, something that the Nazis actually introduced in the form of the Nuremberg laws, and I get banned for a month, and this poster receives no kind of public reprimand. Well we're into Alice in Wonderland territory.
To be clear from my understanding of this exchange, it is accordingly to the mods of this forum, perfectly acceptable to suggest Nazi policies, but not okay to infer that the poster is suggesting Nazi esque policies.
Now it's utterly fair to say that I've had my run in with the mods on this forum, but it's been entirely fair to say that this forum has been riddled with casual racism for months now
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056067096
Jewish rabbi gives us the meaning of life
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056056877
Holocaust denialism
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056051079
Who controls Obama? (you'll never guess who "they" are)
The forum is caked with vile abusive racist language, and apparently the forum mods are more interested in defending the rights of posters to spout racist bile, than in challenging the kind of vile language not tolerated in any other soc category.Post edited by Shield on3
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I've brought this up myself in a number of the threads in the CT forum. There seems to be barely concealed bigotry by several people. The posters deny that they are bigots and can be clever enough about not making it too blatant all the time.
Now to be fair to the mods an awful lot of the conspiracy's out there do involve one particular religion. So it's very difficult to talk about conspiracy's and not reference this specific religion, in this case Jews. I actually like the mods on the CT forum but I also think we've all become somewhat desensitised to how this religion is portrayed. To be clear about this I'm not a fan of Israel but blaming a specific religion for so much is utter bull and shouldn't be tolerated.
I'm not really sure what can be done about it though. If the discussion is stopped then these opinions may go unchallenged elsewhere.0 -
That forum is for discussing conspiracies. It just so happens that some people believe that there are Jewish people behind some of them. Everytime this happens, all you need to do is point out all the flaws in their logic, and the conspiracy is demolished. Hurling abuse at them achieves nothing.
In general Boards has rules against racism in posts except where it is appropriate for the content of the forum. And some of the theories discussed in the forum centre around Jewish people, so there's a little lee-way given. When users go overboard then action is taken.
But I don't see how it can been deemed right to suppress someones opinions simply because you don't agree with them. A solid counter-argument will achieve much more. A perfect example was the holocaust denier thread where pretty much every argument for it was torn apart.
Suppression of thought will just lead to people thinking that they were right all along (why else would their opinion be silenced etc). Giving people all the information will allow them to make up their own minds.0 -
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That forum is for discussing conspiracies. It just so happens that some people believe that there are Jewish people behind some of them. Everytime this happens, all you need to do is point out all the flaws in their logic, and the conspiracy is demolished. Hurling abuse at them achieves nothing.
I'm sorry I did not hurl abuse. The poster in question suggested that there needs to be "transparency" over "the jews that control the media" I suggested that perhaps the poster would care for Jewish entertainers to wear yellow stars.
Apparently it's acceptable to suggest Nazi esque tactics, but not acceptable to point out the poster is demanding something that the Nazis brought in.
Suggesting someone is a Nazi, is an extremely tiresome internet argument, and it means when someone actually suggests something that was brought in the Nurmemburg laws, and when you point out that is quite literally Nazism, you get banned.
Am I wrong here, or is this Alice through the looking glass levels of obtuseness?In general Boards has rules against racism in posts except where it is appropriate for the content of the forum.
I'm sorry could a admin please clarify if this is true.And some of the theories discussed in the forum centre around Jewish people, so there's a little lee-way given. When users go overboard then action is taken.
I reported several of Brown Bombers posts. To describe him as anti Jewish would be 100% accurate. He's received no infraction for his actions.But I don't see how it can been deemed right to suppress someones opinions simply because you don't agree with them.
I'm not suppressing their opinion, I'm just still agog that boards.ie is happy to host a forum where racist language is acceptable!Suppression of thought will just lead to people thinking that they were right all along (why else would their opinion be silenced etc). Giving people all the information will allow them to make up their own minds.
There's a difference between suppressing thought. No one is saying that, it's just if these people want to come out with their poisonous racist vomit, does boards.ie feel they should provide them with a platform?
You can agree with the premise of freedom of speech, you just aren't obliged to lend the people with reprehensible views your megaphone.0 -
Actually, you'll usually find that they explain why they think that way. They don't just scream that the Jews are evil (well some did and were banned).And considering that it's the only argument put forward for the conspiracy at all, how exactly are we to respond?
And when you read on in these threads you see that rambling racist reasons are torn apart. That is exactly how you respond.
You honestly don't get what you said, do you? They were worried about a minority controlling the mass media. It's a conspiracy forum, that's a conspiracy. You were implying that the user wanted the extermination of the Jews. That they were just like the Nazis. You could of said it a thousand different ways without insulting the user.I'm sorry I did not hurl abuse. The poster in question suggested that there needs to be "transparency" over "the jews that control the media" I suggested that perhaps the poster would care for Jewish entertainers to wear yellow stars.
It's not what you meant, it's how you said it.Apparently it's acceptable to suggest Nazi esque tactics, but not acceptable to point out the poster is demanding something that the Nazis brought in.
Again, not why you were banned.Suggesting someone is a Nazi, is an extremely tiresome internet argument, and it means when someone actually suggests something that was brought in the Nurmemburg laws, and when you point out that is quite literally Nazism, you get banned.
You're wrong.Am I wrong here, or is this Alice through the looking glass levels of obtuseness?
Not sure where it is, but the actual phrasing is:
I'm sorry could a admin please clarify if this is true.You agree NOT to use Boards.ie to:
...
* post any abusive, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, indecent, profane, inappropriate, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable Material, except where the content is appropriate to the content of the forum and you have been granted specific permission to do so and subject to our guidelines on said content
* post Material that contains violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website
Someone might be able to point out where it's actually from. Think it might be the Terms and Conditions.I reported several of Brown Bombers posts. To describe him as anti Jewish would be 100% accurate. He's received no infraction for his actions.
When someone breaks the charter then action is taken. You want him infracted for his opinion?I'm not suppressing their opinion, I'm just still agog that boards.ie is happy to host a forum where racist language is acceptable!
You want them to not be able to voice their opinion. That's suppression.
Why shouldn't they? Should Boards only allow one side of every discussion? Again, just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.There's a difference between suppressing thought. No one is saying that, it's just if these people want to come out with their poisonous racist vomit, does boards.ie feel they should provide them with a platform?
Boards is a platform for people to voice opinions. If you've a problem with one such opinion you can ignore it or argue it. On the CT forum, arguing these opinions has proved very successful.You can agree with the premise of freedom of speech, you just aren't obliged to lend the people with reprehensible views your megaphone.0 -
So we both know it's racism, but we aren't allowed call it for what it is?Actually, you'll usually find that they explain why they think that way. They don't just scream that the Jews are evil (well some did and were banned).
And when you read on in these threads you see that rambling racist reasons are torn apart. That is exactly how you respond.0 -
You honestly don't get what you said, do you? They were worried about a minority controlling the mass media. It's a conspiracy forum, that's a conspiracy. You were implying that the user wanted the extermination of the Jews.
I said nothing of the sort. The poster suggested he wanted "transparency" over "jews in the media" I asked him how he would like this "transparency to be demonstrated, and suggested that would he like Jews to wear yellow stars.
I said nothing that could be implied that the poster wanted genocide, and strongly resent your slur.
When the Nazis came to power one of their first acts was to insist Jews clearly identify themselves as Jews by wearing a yellow star. And that Jewish Businesses clearly identify themselves as Jewish Businesses. this is EXACTLY WHAT BROWN BOMBER WAS SAYING And I'm sitting out a month long ban because of it.It's not what you meant, it's how you said it.
Okay so a poster implies jews in the media should be clearly identifiable, I point out that this is something that the Nazis would have done. I get banned.Again, not why you were banned.
Okay why was I banned because I never called the poster a Nazi, and I never suggested he wanted to exterminate all Jews. I merely pointed out that what he was suggesting echoed Nazi policy.You're wrong.
Please explain it, a poster can suggest something that was Nazi policy from 1933 onwards, and when someone points out that this was Nazi policy, they get a banning.
How the fúck can you not see the insane levels of double think on display here.When someone breaks the charter then action is taken. You want him infracted for his opinion?
You want them to not be able to voice their opinion. That's suppression.
Why shouldn't they? Should Boards only allow one side of every discussion? Again, just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.
Okay Lets take your position as a given for a moment, Supposing there are sections of the forum where racist language is acceptable, this is an emotive and powerful subject, surely then a relaxation on the moderation of this forum should also be acceptable?0 -
I'm also banned from the conspiracy forum for a month, and I didn't call anyone a nazi. I called brown bomber a bigot. The only reason I called him a bigot was on the basis of his own posts. I'm not trying to suppress anyone's views - just engage with them in an honest fashion. Walks and talks like a bigot - there shouldn't be any problem with calling them on it.
And yes - the casual assumption that 'them there jews are behind it all' runs through much of what passes for conspiracy 'theories' - quite a flag of convenience for attitudes that would be called out in any other forum.0 -
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So we both know it's racism, but we aren't allowed call it for what it is?
Right, here's the huge point that you, Di0genes and Alastair are missing:
Take these two statements:
1) You are stupid.
2) You're post is stupid.
No 1 is an insult.
No 2 is a comment on a post.
Can you see the difference? One is against Boards rules. One isn't.
So you admit that you comment was refering to the nazis. Can't see what your problem is. Also, if you've a problem with you ban, you take it to the mods then the Cmods, then the Disputes Resolution forum. This isn't the place for it.I said nothing of the sort. The poster suggested he wanted "transparency" over "jews in the media" I asked him how he would like this "transparency to be demonstrated, and suggested that would he like Jews to wear yellow stars.
I said nothing that could be implied that the poster wanted genocide, and strongly resent your slur.
When the Nazis came to power one of their first acts was to insist Jews clearly identify themselves as Jews by wearing a yellow star. And that Jewish Businesses clearly identify themselves as Jewish Businesses. this is EXACTLY WHAT BROWN BOMBER WAS SAYING And I'm sitting out a month long ban because of it.
No, what they gave was an opinion about the conspiracy. What you did was to compare that user to the nazis. See how that's an insult? You could have just commented on the actual topic, like you've been told many, many, many times before. But you didn't. You went for the poster instead.Okay so a poster implies jews in the media should be clearly identifiable, I point out that this is something that the Nazis would have done. I get banned.Okay why was I banned because I never called the poster a Nazi, and I never suggested he wanted to exterminate all Jews. I merely pointed out that what he was suggesting echoed Nazi policy.
Please explain it, a poster can suggest something that was Nazi policy from 1933 onwards, and when someone points out that this was Nazi policy, they get a banning.
How the fúck can you not see the insane levels of double think on display here.
See above for my explanation, or ask the person who banned you. And keep in mind your constant behavior in the forum and that you had just come back from a two week ban.
No. There is a charter for the forum. In it it say that you can't insult a user. So you get punished if you insult a user. It's pretty much that simple.Okay Lets take your position as a given for a moment, Supposing there are sections of the forum where racist language is acceptable, this is an emotive and powerful subject, surely then a relaxation on the moderation of this forum should also be acceptable?
Why is it so difficult for you to counter the claims that are made? They're fairly easy to show as being nonsense.
Again, my reply to King Mob covers this.I'm also banned from the conspiracy forum for a month, and I didn't call anyone a nazi. I called brown bomber a bigot. The only reason I called him a bigot was on the basis of his own posts. I'm not trying to suppress anyone's views - just engage with them in an honest fashion. Walks and talks like a bigot - there shouldn't be any problem with calling them on it.
And as I said above, you don't attack the users, you attack the posts. That is what people don't seem to be able to understand.And yes - the casual assumption that 'them there jews are behind it all' runs through much of what passes for conspiracy 'theories' - quite a flag of convenience for attitudes that would be called out in any other forum.0 -
But that's a subjective opinion.Right, here's the huge point that you, Di0genes and Alastair are missing:
Take these two statements:
1) You are stupid.
2) You're post is stupid.
No 1 is an insult.
No 2 is a comment on a post.
A racist is defined as person who holds racist opinions.
Accusing someone of being part of a conspiracy based on their heritage is, as you have agreed, a racist opinion.
It's a fact.
And racist comments like the ones in the CT are also against Boards wide rules.Can you see the difference? One is against Boards rules. One isn't.
By your own words you are suspending these rules so people can be racist.0 -
But that's a subjective opinion.
A racist is defined as person who holds racist opinions.
Accusing someone of being part of a conspiracy based on their heritage is, as you have agreed, a racist opinion.
It's a fact.
Again, attack the post, not the poster.And racist comments like the ones in the CT are also against Boards wide rules.
By your own words you are suspending these rules so people can be racist.* post any abusive, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, indecent, profane, inappropriate, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable Material, except where the content is appropriate to the content of the forum and you have been granted specific permission to do so and subject to our guidelines on said content
I highlighted the important part. The conspiracy was based around the thought that a ethic group are plotting something. That's why it's in the conspiracy theories forum, to discuss this conspiracy.0 -
So we're allowed to say that the opinion is racist, thus inherently mean the poster is racist, but we're not allowed to actually say they are racist.Again, attack the post, not the poster.
How exactly does this make sense?
Then by the exact same criteria, calling people out as the racists they demonstrably are could also be considered under this exception.I highlighted the important part. The conspiracy was based around the thought that a ethic group are plotting something. That's why it's in the conspiracy theories forum, to discuss this conspiracy.
Or maybe I could start a completely made up theory that all conspiracies are set up as a racist ploy?
Seriously humanji there is no reason to allow racists to make their bull**** claims here then give them special protections.0 -
Im sorry, but Rick Sanchez was fired for good reason. You can not, under any spark of imagination, get away with saying those things, especially when you plan on directly referring to your superiors at CNN. It's not even like the guy just went on a Jew-bash at Jon Stewart's expense and the CNN Execs then took offense: Sanchez actually pointed a finger at the CNN execs in his radio interview. Thats not something you really want to do when you're on the payroll over at CNN.
This conspiracy theory you guys have cooked up is a farce. Just saying.0 -
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Look, there is a Long standing Conspiracy Theory that a Zionist Cabal is exerting an undue influence over the Media, one of the tricks that this Cabal uses is to accuse anyone who notices this detail of being a Racist.
Seems to be workin for them.0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »Look, there is a Long standing Conspiracy Theory that a Zionist Cabal is exerting an undue influence over the Media, one of the tricks that this Cabal uses is to accuse anyone who notices this detail of being a Racist.
Seems to be workin for them.
I really think the defrocked mod who was fired for saying "jews the most despicable race of people on the planet". I'm paraphrasing of course, because you quickly deleted the thread and try to engage in Orwellian Ministry of Love style denial that the thread never happened, really isn't the person who should be trying to defend this forum right now.0 -
1) My Previous Modding is irelevant in this discussion
2) Thats not why I was Demodded BTW.
3) That thread is neither Deleted or Locked
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58063111
Now Back OT
4) I simply posted A Condensed summary of the Conspiracy Theory that leads to these threads, just to put things in Context for people who do not Frequent the CT Forum
5) Could you try to debate the points, rather than resorting to adHomenims, Like many posters and Mods have suggested in this thread, maybe you would be banned less often.
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Mahatma coat wrote: »1) My Previous Modding is irelevant in this discussion
2) Thats not why I was Demodded BTW.
Oh why were you.3) That thread is neither Deleted or Locked
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58063111
Yeah from your last postthread closed locked and deleted
You are really bad at this.Now Back OT
4) I simply posted A Condensed summary of the Conspiracy Theory that leads to these threads, just to put things in Context for people who do not Frequent the CT Forum
Poorly condensed.5) Could you try to debate the points, rather than resorting to adHomenims, Like many posters and Mods have suggested in this thread, maybe you would be banned less often.
Mahatma your vile racist language, and the vile racist language of other posters on the forum is the point, and the fact that the Mods of CT seem to think they have a unwritten get out clause to allow racist language on this forum.0 -
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Right, here's the huge point that you, Di0genes and Alastair are missing:
Take these two statements:
1) You are stupid.
2) You're post is stupid.
No 1 is an insult.
No 2 is a comment on a post.
Can you see the difference? One is against Boards rules. One isn't. .
Ahh - so if I point out that your post is stupid there's no insult at play? Okaaay.
Taking that logic (?) to a conclusion - If I point out that a post demonstrates active bigotry, then there's no insult or consequent rule broken? Because the post I was banned for pointed out that the repeated (and erroneous) claims presented by brown bomber were (in the absence of any actual facts) the consequence of bigoted tunnel vision. In effect "your claims are bigoted" seems a pretty neat substitute for the seemingly non-insulting "your post is stupid".
Or maybe all this 'angels on the head of a pin' nonsense is simply a distraction from the bizarre penalisation of those who highlight active bigots and racists on this forum?0 -
Mahatma your vile racist language, and the vile racist language of other posters on the forum is the point, and the fact that the Mods of CT seem to think they have a unwritten get out clause to allow racist language on this forum.
Calling it racism is stupid. Would the same people be outraged if people were starting threads in relation to Catholic groups controlling vast monopolies? It's just selective interest, many CTs happen to relate to people who happen to be Jewish. It isn't even religious discrimination.
What's your solution to this apparent problem anyway? To ban outrght any mention of Jewish people in theories?0 -
My name is URL wrote: »Calling it racism is stupid. Would the same people be outraged if people were starting threads in relation to Catholic groups controlling vast monopolies? It's just selective interest, many CTs happen to relate to people who happen to be Jewish. It isn't even religious discrimination.
What's your solution to this apparent problem anyway? To ban outrght any mention of Jewish people in theories?
The problem is Jewish people make up a tiny percentage of the worlds population but are supposedly involved on 90% of the conspiracy's. It's difficult to explain that without seeing it as bigotry of some kind.0 -
My name is URL wrote: »Calling it racism is stupid.
No it's pretty much a text book theory of racist conspiracy theories.Would the same people be outraged if people were starting threads in relation to Catholic groups controlling vast monopolies?
Yes actually I would.It's just selective interest, many CTs happen to relate to people who happen to be Jewish. It isn't even religious discrimination.
What's your solution to this apparent problem anyway? To ban outrght any mention of Jewish people in theories?
That the conspiracy theories forum align itself more to the overall ethos of boards.ie, see how long some of these users would last coming up with this vile language in after hours, or politics.0 -
The problem is Jewish people make up a tiny percentage of the worlds population but are supposedly involved on 90% of the conspiracy's. It's difficult to explain that without seeing it as bigotry of some kind.
But many positions of power are held by Jewish folk, regardless of them being a minority in terms of world religion. I don't think their religious beliefs come into it for the most part, though only those starting the threads could say for sure. The nature of the CT forum is to question those in control, be it of the financial world or the media one etc. There's no denying that Jewish people have historically had a disproportionate amount of control in various circles given the fact that they do make up such a tiny percentage of the worlds population. I don't think saying that is racist. I don't believe the whole conspiracy which is touted out either, but I can understand why it's such a popular theory.
That the conspiracy theories forum align itself more to the overall ethos of boards.ie, see how long some of these users would last coming up with this vile language in after hours, or politics.
What language, specifically? I thought it was just the general idea that so many threads on the subject existed which irked you. I certainly would agree with you about clamping down on racist language, but I honestly haven't come across much racist language in the forum and would imagine that the mods would deal with it accordingly.0 -
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My name is URL wrote: »... many CTs happen to relate to people who happen to be Jewish. It isn't even religious discrimination.
Just happen to relate to Jews eh?
Strange alright - wonder what happens when you look for a common thread to bind these co-incidences together. It couldn't possibly be discrimination though.0 -
I certainly would, if the only evidence for the conspiracy is just that they are Catholic.My name is URL wrote: »Calling it racism is stupid. Would the same people be outraged if people were starting threads in relation to Catholic groups controlling vast monopolies? It's just selective interest, many CTs happen to relate to people who happen to be Jewish. It isn't even religious discrimination.
Stopping people from doing just that and forcing them to either provide real evidence or take there racist delusions elsewhere.My name is URL wrote: »What's your solution to this apparent problem anyway? To ban outrght any mention of Jewish people in theories?
Or at the very least enforce the same rules everywhere, like humanji is so insistent about for cases of personal attacks.
And funny thing is we keep asking this very same question about the apparent problem of the Jews and we've yet to see an answer.
So you don't see anything even slightly racist with people copy pasting an article that just lists out Jews, no conspiracy mentioned or anything else to connect them, just a list of Jews.My name is URL wrote: »What language, specifically? I thought it was just the general idea that so many threads on the subject existed which irked you. I certainly would agree with you about clamping down on racist language, but I honestly haven't come across much racist language in the forum and would imagine that the mods would deal with it accordingly.
Or how about posting links to sites like "Jewwatch" and "WhiteWorldNews"?
Or how about the usual bollocks of "Jews aren't really a race, so therefore it's not racism."? (Which ironically the above sites would disagree with,distingushing between Jews and Whites.)
Or how about the simple fact that someone actually referred to it as "The Jewish Problem."?0 -
My name is URL wrote: »There's no denying that Jewish people have historically had a disproportionate amount of control in various circles given the fact that they do make up such a tiny percentage of the worlds population.
There isn't? Glad that's settled in your own mind at least.0 -
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Rev Hellfire wrote: »If you dislike the conspiracy theories forum simply don't go there.
If the football forum had threads mocking the ethicist of players would that be tolerated. Or how about in the roleplaying forum, if someone started posting links to some depraved Gorean style campaign filled with misanthropic vile rape fantasies would your argument be, "hey don't visit the roleplaying or football forum?
We're told boards.ie is a community, well this community has a sub community that is coming off like boards.ie/stormfront, should the community not actively engage in fixing this?0
This discussion has been closed.
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