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I was asked for my religion today..

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    #362
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    k_mac wrote: »
    So where do you draw the line? Force parents to feed certain foods to their children. Force them to go by certain house rules? You say it is reckless endangerment. Obviously you assume doctors are always right. So why should anyone be able to refuse treatment? Some people don't believe in extending life by medical intervention. Where do you stand on heroic measures for premature babies? Should parents be forced to have their child go through operation after operation despite the fact that the child will have no quality of life just so the life can be extended a few months?

    So where do you draw the line. Should parents have the right to starve their children or poison them or mutilate their genitals or subject them to a slow painful death for want of a simple medical procedure.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    it's idiocy to piss and moan about Catholic run schools which were founded and built buy the church.

    Reluctantly responding to this one given that its O/T but what the heck.....

    As far as Im concerned just like any other private organisation the RC (or any other) church are welcome to found and build as many schools and hospitals as they damn well like. Provided they dont expect to receive any public money for doing so. If Roman Catholics (or anyone else) want to use such hospitals/schools (and can afford the fees) good luck to them. However they shouldnt recieve any assistance from the public purse over and above whatever basic rate tax deductions are normally available to users of private hospitals/schools opting out of the public system.


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    #363
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes, I was visiting a clinic at the Mater Hospital and upon regging ya wan behind the counter went through my details and landed me with this bomb of 'what religion I am'.

    I just went 'wtf' in my head and after an awkward slience said 'err no religion'. Then she just wobbled her head and promptly kept typing into her pc.

    Now, what frigging relevance is my religion in order to get treatment in a hospital?:mad:

    Thought Ireland was in the 21st century and why would a hospital care about my religious beliefs?:confused:

    It was simple question that required a simple answer. There is no need to get on your high horse about it.

    It was not about insulting you or deciding whether or not you were going to be able to recieve treatment at that hospital which I think you know really.

    I'm sure that for some people their beliefs would have a big influance of their medical care or in what happens in the unfortunate event of their death.


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    #364
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    gurramok wrote: »
    Just a sample. Most were in the middle of the night though.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68757839&postcount=251
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68757846&postcount=253
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68757845&postcount=252
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68757554&postcount=202
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68757638&postcount=210
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68757661&postcount=212

    None of those have anything to do with your question of legality or of their or your beliefs in fact. They're just stressed out by your stupidity tbh


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    #365
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Op, if asking the question of your religion was put to you the wrong way, you should just send a 'strongly worded letter', and ask them to re word the question in a more appropriate way, so as not to cause untold offense to people such as yourself...

    You live in a country where people are different, some have a religion, some don't, the hospital forms of admission will ask many questions, that's the usual with any kind of admission....

    Usually, they keep records for future reference. One day you might have a sore thumb, ten years later who knows...but they have a record on file, it's just procedure, and it helps the staff etc. to be able to cater to you and your family in an appropriate way by knowing these things at the outset, so they just ask straight out..Like asking what gender you are or if you are allergic to anything or who your next of kin is etc. etc. etc.

    It's just a form. There is an unbelievable amount of data kept on people in so many institutions etc. today that this seems really really minor and petty.

    If your answer actually 'mattered' towards your treatment etc. I would have a problem with that, and I'm Catholic, I'd have a problem if the question had some kind of conspiracy undertones attached.
    Honestly though, it doesn't - it's nothing new to hear that somebody has 'no religion' - just say it, and then they note it on your file, and most people forget it till they happen to pick up your file to treat you...


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    #366
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Seaneh wrote: »
    The only person I said was an idiot was the OP. I said it's idiocy to piss and moan about Catholic run schools which were founded and built buy the church rather than get off your hole and do something about it.

    My kids won't be going to a catholic school but at the same time I won't piss and moan about catholic schools. If there is no non-denominational or educate together in the area I live in I would consider moving closer to one, if that's not an option I would have them opted-out of the R.E. classes like every other non-catholic child in a catholic school.

    For one that is so defending of the Catholic Church as per your earlier abuse, its quite ironic that you won't be sending your kids to a Catholic school.

    Name calling seems to be your only argument and gets you nowhere. At least take a leaf out of other posters like lmaopml who logically explains things civilly. :mad:
    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    None of those have anything to do with your question of legality or of their or your beliefs in fact. They're just stressed out by your stupidity tbh

    What stupidity? I bring up a pressing subject and get branded stupid? :mad:


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    #367
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    What difference does it make if they are Religious or not? If they are making competent choices in the running of the hospital then I do not see why anyone would have any objection to them being on the hospital board barring people who seethe with rage at the sight or mention of religion in a public setting.

    Why they need for them to run the hospitals? No problem having them there as a representative of their religion but running the hospitals is a big difference.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    To cater for the spiritual needs of patients. I would have thought this obvious. I'd like to know if I was in hospital that I would be able to receive pastoral care should I need it.

    Speak for non-believers and that group alone. From my non-Catholic perspective, I think it is perfectly reasonable why this question is asked..

    As above, why are they still running them, Ireland is a secular country to cater for all beliefs including yours yes?
    k_mac wrote: »
    Because they founded them.

    Thats the unfortunate thing with living in a Catholic country were the hospitals and schools were built by the Catholic church. What percentage of the population is Catholic?

    EDIT: How would you identify the religious ones in your world where people can't ask about your religion?

    Why not? Because doctors are always right? You cannot take away that choice from parents.

    Identify by asking do I have a religion rather than assuming I have one in the first place.

    The Church should give up control as times have changed, we are secular now and should cater for all beliefs.

    Ireland is still a Catholic country? :eek: How do you know this, mass attendance has hit rock bottom. Most massgoers are middle aged to elderly, its a dying belief in my eyes.


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    #368
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Dollface0 wrote: »
    Everyone should has a religion belief no matter in which century.

    Why everyone, trying to force me? :eek:

    Ya know, some people don't want anything to do with any religion so respect that wish.


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    #369
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Dollface0 wrote: »
    Everyone should has a religion belief no matter in which century.

    Get away out of that.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Why they need for them to run the hospitals? No problem having them there as a representative of their religion but running the hospitals is a big difference.



    As above, why are they still running them, Ireland is a secular country to cater for all beliefs including yours yes?



    Identify by asking do I have a religion rather than assuming I have one in the first place.

    The Church should give up control as times have changed, we are secular now and should cater for all beliefs.

    Ireland is still a Catholic country? :eek: How do you know this, mass attendance has hit rock bottom. Most massgoers are middle aged to elderly, its a dying belief in my eyes.

    Honestly, I don't see what your big issue with the hospitals are, no rights were impeded on, a question was asked about your religon, and you answered.

    Would you have prefered a simple "Religion?" rather than the "What is your religion?"

    Again, answer me this, what bearing does a hospital having a religious board have on you as a user of their services?


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    #370
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Identify by asking do I have a religion rather than assuming I have one in the first place.

    Do you enjoy being annoyed & aggravated at every turn....?

    Should the homeless guy be offended when they are asked what their address is rather than whether they have an address?
    Or should the guw with no contact number be upset when asked for his contact number rather than whether he has a contact number?
    Or should the hermaphrodite be angered by the question 'are you male or female?' rather than 'do you have an identifiable gender?'

    Stop being silly. Or do you enjoy being corrected by multiple people for multiple reasons?


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    #371
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Honestly, I don't see what your big issue with the hospitals are, no rights were impeded on, a question was asked about your religon, and you answered.

    Would you have prefered a simple "Religion?" rather than the "What is your religion?"

    Again, answer me this, what bearing does a hospital having a religious board have on you as a user of their services?

    A simple 'do I have a religion' would suffice.

    There is a potential conflict of interest in having a hospital run by the religious when they are there to treat those of all religions and no religion. Likewise for the schools.


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    #372
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    Do you enjoy being annoyed & aggravated at every turn....?

    Should the homeless guy be offended when they are asked what their address is rather than whether they have an address?
    Or should the guw with no contact number be upset when asked for his contact number rather than whether he has a contact number?
    Or should the hermaphrodite be angered by the question 'are you male or female?' rather than 'do you have an identifiable gender?'

    Stop being silly. Or do you enjoy being corrected by multiple people for multiple reasons?

    Where is the connection between that rant and religion?:confused:


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    #373
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    gurramok wrote: »
    A simple 'do I have a religion' would suffice.

    Potato, potato. I've outlined how this question can lead to an increase in waiting times.

    There is a potential conflict of interest in having a hospital run by the religious when they are there to treat those of all religions and no religion. Likewise for the schools.

    For schools, yes. They are educators. I don't want my child educated in a way I wouldn't like. For hospitals, honestly, they're asking the question to know what box to tick, if you die, who do they notify. With them on the boards, what possible conflict of interest can you see happening?

    Would you prefer Michael O'Leary (for arguments sake) on the hospital board?


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    #374
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Potato, potato. I've outlined how this question can lead to an increase in waiting times.

    Yes, half a second:rolleyes:
    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    For schools, yes. They are educators. I don't want my child educated in a way I wouldn't like. For hospitals, honestly, they're asking the question to know what box to tick, if you die, who do they notify. With them on the boards, what possible conflict of interest can you see happening?

    Would you prefer Michael O'Leary (for arguments sake) on the hospital board?

    Boards of hospitals make important decisions in the running of the hospital, the staff are just pawns. So why keep a board that just represents one religion?:confused:

    Why Michael O'Leary? I'd prefer people of all beliefs and no beliefs on the board, not just believers of one religion.


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    #375
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes, half a second:rolleyes:

    But again, those couple of seconds multiplied by umpteen times a day can lead to a longer delay.

    Boards of hospitals make important decisions in the running of the hospital, the staff are just pawns. So why keep a board that just represents one religion?:confused:

    Why Michael O'Leary? I'd prefer people of all beliefs and no beliefs on the board, not just believers of one religion.

    I honestly don't believe that they currently let their religion affect any decisions made by the board. Its not like they're going to baptise you if you go for an operation.

    I picked MO'L because he's an example of successful business person. He's also a catholic, I believe. But I wouldn't particularly like to attend a hospital that he was a board member of.


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    #376
    hadas
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭hadas


    Trekmad wrote: »
    I would have said jedi, but she probally would'nt get it.
    :D


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    #377
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gurramok wrote: »
    A simple 'do I have a religion' would suffice.

    There is a potential conflict of interest in having a hospital run by the religious when they are there to treat those of all religions and no religion. Likewise for the schools.

    To suggest that doctors or teachers perform poorly on purpose based on your religion is just an insult to these people. Teachers teach based on the government standards an curiculum and doctors practice on the basis of the hypocratic oath.


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    #378
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    I honestly don't believe that they currently let their religion affect any decisions made by the board. Its not like they're going to baptise you if you go for an operation.

    I picked MO'L because he's an example of successful business person. He's also a catholic, I believe. But I wouldn't particularly like to attend a hospital that he was a board member of.

    We don't know that their decisions are not affected by their beliefs. Religion and health is often intertwined with ethics and morality hence the valid question of a potential conflict of interest.
    k_mac wrote: »
    To suggest that doctors or teachers perform poorly on purpose based on your religion is just an insult to these people. Teachers teach based on the government standards an curiculum and doctors practice on the basis of the hypocratic oath.

    Eh, their bosses are from the religious institutions!


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    #379
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gurramok wrote: »
    Eh, their bosses are from the religious institutions!

    So? Their bosses dont treat the patients or teach the kids.


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    #380
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    k_mac wrote: »
    So? Their bosses dont treat the patients or teach the kids.

    You seriously say so?! They run the hospital.

    Have a read of the strict Catholic ethos at our hosiptals. You as a Catholic are of course comfy with this? :eek:
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/magdalene-laundry-ethos-is-alive-and-well-and-rules-our-hospitals-136577.html
    The new National Children's Hospital will be located at the Mater, a State-funded hospital run according to a very strict Catholic ethos.

    Whereas at Tallaght hospital there is an obligation "to promote and secure the availability, as a matter between the patient and his or her doctor, of such medical and surgical procedures as may lawfully be provided within the State", no such obligation applies to the Mater, if the availability of a medical or surgical procedure goes against Catholic ethos.

    This was sensationally demonstrated last year when three members of the board (sub committee) of the Mater Hospital (two of whom were religious) decided to stop trials for a cancer drug because females undergoing treatment were advised to take contraception or abstain from sex. The proposal to use the drug had already been approved by the ethics committee in Tallaght hospital but the sub committee of the Mater board argued that advising women to use contraception was against Catholic doctrine.

    This sounds insane. A priest, a nun and a Catholic businessman tried to stop giving terminally ill women the chance to have their lives prolonged by several months because they didn't want them told they should use contraception if they were having sex? And the State is paying for nonsense to be propagated? Fr Kevin Doran, one of those who protested, argued that pharmaceutical companies behind clinical trials are being "over-prescriptive in their requirements", requiring women to use contraception which was contrary to Catholic teaching, and "infringing on women's freedom".

    Did you get that last sentence? A Catholic priest tries to deny women a drug which may extend their lives because he is concerned about their "freedom"?

    Oh yes, the Catholic Church has always been to the forefront in its support of female freedom. You really couldn't make it up.

    And it's not just the so-called "Catholic" hospitals, such as St Vincent's and the Mater in Dublin, which are opposed to "un-Catholic practices". One of the founders of both Blackrock and Galway private clinics, James Sheehan, admits that both hospitals have a Catholic ethos. (Seemingly, prayer books are provided in all bedside lockers in Galway).

    That is outrageous in our secular society :mad:


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    #381
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gurramok wrote: »
    You seriously say so?! They run the hospital.

    Have a read of the strict Catholic ethos at our hosiptals. You as a Catholic are of course comfy with this? :eek:
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/magdalene-laundry-ethos-is-alive-and-well-and-rules-our-hospitals-136577.html


    That is outrageous in our secular society :mad:

    I'm not Catholic. I clearly said that I was raised Catholic but follow no particular religion. Don't try to pigeon hole me.

    That article is 4 years old. Is it still the case? Also this isn't the prevention of medical treatment. The article states that these were trials. I do see where you are coming from with the problem with having priests and the like on medical boards however I stand by my assertion that you would not be treated any different in a hospital based on your religion.


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    #382
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    k_mac wrote: »
    I'm not Catholic. I clearly said that I was raised Catholic but follow no particular religion. Don't try to pigeon hole me.

    That article is 4 years old. Is it still the case? Also this isn't the prevention of medical treatment. The article states that these were trials. I do see where you are coming from with the problem with having priests and the like on medical boards however I stand by my assertion that you would not be treated any different in a hospital based on your religion.

    Thats just one example of whats reported, god knows what else goes on there. I believe its still the case that the Mater has a Catholic ethos.

    Now, that is intimidating towards other who do not follow the Catholic ethos. Why are they there in the first place and not been replaced to give a secular ethos?


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    #383
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats just one example of whats reported, god knows what else goes on there. I believe its still the case that the Mater has a Catholic ethos.

    That shows how they effect overall policy but nothing at all to suggest they would treat a patient any different based on their religion.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Now, that is intimidating towards other who do not follow the Catholic ethos. Why are they there in the first place and not been replaced to give a secular ethos?

    Because they founded the hospitals. I thought we had established that. Has the governemnt even purchased the land and building occupied by the Mater? And your only reason for removing them from their position would be their religious beliefs. Which is discrimination at its finest.


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    #384
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    k_mac wrote: »
    That shows how they effect overall policy but nothing at all to suggest they would treat a patient any different based on their religion.

    How do you know? I just gave an example of discrimination against women where they did not fit the Catholic ethos criteria.
    k_mac wrote: »
    Because they founded the hospitals. I thought we had established that. Has the governemnt even purchased the land and building occupied by the Mater? And your only reason for removing them from their position would be their religious beliefs. Which is discrimination at its finest.

    No. Remove the ethos. They can stay for Catholic believers and Protestant/Muslim/Hindu/Athiest representatives can be on the board to represent their followers and to enforce a no discrimination ethos. That is secular.


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    #385
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gurramok wrote: »
    How do you know? I just gave an example of discrimination against women where they did not fit the Catholic ethos criteria.

    It wasn't discrimination against women at all. That would imply that men were entitled to continue. But all the trials were stopped. It was a bad decision but it wasn't in any way discrimination.
    gurramok wrote: »
    No. Remove the ethos. They can stay for Catholic believers and Protestant/Muslim/Hindu/Athiest representatives can be on the board to represent their followers and to enforce a no discrimination ethos. That is secular.

    I have no problem with changing the ethos as long as it is replaced by a strong moral principal. But that does not mean you have to remove the priests and nuns as long as they abide by the new principals. It would probably result in many of them leaving their positions anyway due to their own beliefs.


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    #386
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Now I see where the conflict can come into play. I stand corrected.

    Still don't agree with you on the question on registration though. Well, not that I don't agree, but that I think you are making more out of it than it is.


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    #387
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Where is the connection between that rant and religion?:confused:

    :D Do you really not see it?:D Bless...

    You believe they should ask 'do you have a religon' rather than 'what is your religon', because the latter pre-supposes that the patient has a religon, which doesnt respect your beliefs etc,right........?

    So, should they ask people 'do you have an address' rather than 'what is your address', because the latter pre-supposes that the patient has an address which doesnt show respect to the homeless.....

    See how ridiculous it sounds? Now, stop being silly.


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    #388
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    k_mac wrote: »
    It wasn't discrimination against women at all. That would imply that men were entitled to continue. But all the trials were stopped. It was a bad decision but it wasn't in any way discrimination.

    Thats what we know of so far.
    k_mac wrote: »
    I have no problem with changing the ethos as long as it is replaced by a strong moral principal. But that does not mean you have to remove the priests and nuns as long as they abide by the new principals. It would probably result in many of them leaving their positions anyway due to their own beliefs.

    Moral ethos? So they would leave just because they lose control:rolleyes:
    drkpower wrote:
    You believe they should ask 'do you have a religon' rather than 'what is your religon', because the latter pre-supposes that the patient has a religon, which doesnt respect your beliefs etc,right........?

    So, should they ask people 'do you have an address' rather than 'what is your address', because the latter pre-supposes that the patient has an address which doesnt show respect to the homeless.....

    See how ridiculous it sounds?

    Not the same. Homelessness is not trying to control my life nor dictate how I go about my morals.


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    #389
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    gurramok wrote: »
    Not the same. Homelessness is not trying to control my life nor dictate how I go about my morals.

    Because they asked you your religion they are trying to control your life? Oh jesus...
    And you asked why people consider this debate stupid...?


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    #390
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats what we know of so far.

    Unless you want to make stuff up thats really all we can base out arguments on isn't it? It still has no relevance to individual treatment.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Moral ethos? So they would leave just because they lose control:rolleyes:

    Yes probably. They would most likely not want to be involved in decisions which go against their beliefs.


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    #391
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Not the same. Homelessness is not trying to control my life nor dictate how I go about my morals.

    Nor are the Hospital by asking you what your religon is. When you said 'no religon' (or cried or whatever you did in protest at the very notion of the question), did they try and 'control my life nor dictate how I go about my morals'.....? No of course they didnt.

    Tbh, the key question they should have asked you was the identity of a responsible adult next-of-kin because it frightens me that you might be allowed to make important healthcare decisions on your own behalf;).


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