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I was asked for my religion today..

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    #512
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056062904


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    #513
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    Audrey, thats quite a jump you have done there.

    Where have I displayed hatred for anything remotely Catholic/Christian or me being intolerant? Quote some posts.

    Its the defence of said posters hiding behind their true identity. I think everyone of all types should post and they have.

    Nope not a jump at all. Just the truth, plain and simple. Every single one of your posts displays intolerance and some vitriolic hatred of Catholicism/Christianity.

    Read back through everything you've written and be honest with yourself. You know that the issue isn't really questions or ethics. It is simply that you hate anything remotely religious.


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    #514
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Nope not a jump at all. Just the truth, plain and simple. Every single one of your posts displays intolerance and some vitriolic hatred of Catholicism/Christianity.

    Read back through everything you've written and be honest with yourself. You know that the issue isn't really questions or ethics. It is simply that you hate anything remotely religious.

    Prove it with posts Audrey. I see nothing at all indicating hate.


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    #515
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    Prove it with posts Audrey. I see nothing at all indicating hate.

    Of course you don't.

    If you bothered to look at what you've written honestly you would see but that you make you wrong and you just can't bring yourself to admit you've overreacted so you won't even try to see it.


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    #516
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    MazG wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056062904

    Think I will take your advice, I don't have the time or energy to trawl through google finding screwed up medical procedures in non christian/secular hospitals and I am confident there are loads.


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    #517
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    MazG wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056062904

    What are you on about? You never contributed a single post to that thread and your first contribution to this thread is to accuse others of trolling? You'd have to prove that young man.

    Oh and so says the man defending the Angelus and you have no bias at all :rolleyes: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66897106#post66897106

    Thanks for giving ammo to my argument that posters who defend religion to the hilt are indeed posting here with a biased opinion. I salute you ;)


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    #518
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Of course you don't.

    If you bothered to look at what you've written honestly you would see but that you make you wrong and you just can't bring yourself to admit you've overreacted so you won't even try to see it.

    So you've nothing to back up your claim of my supposed hate towards Catholics. Thanks for the retraction.
    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    Think I will take your advice, I don't have the time or energy to trawl through google finding screwed up medical procedures in non christian/secular hospitals and I am confident there are loads.

    If you did not have the time allegedly, you would find they did not screw up based on religious doctrine.


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    #519
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    So you've nothing to back up your claim of my supposed hate towards Catholics. Thanks for the retraction.

    Why do I bother ?

    This thread is evidence in itself. Your reaction to a simple question is evidence. Your banging on about ethos and the fact that no-one religious should any involvement in hospitals is evidence.


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    #520
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Why do I bother ?

    This thread is evidence in itself. Your reaction to a simple question is evidence. Your banging on about ethos and the fact that no-one religious should any involvement in hospitals is evidence.

    I question the need for a Catholic ethos in public hospitals based on the fact that our society is secular and also the past interference of said ethos in administering care(and trials).

    I never said to ban religious from hospitals. They can be involved too but let people of other faiths and no faiths into the running of said hospitals for a fairer system where everyone including said religious can have a say. Whats wrong with that??

    If that is hate, you are simply over reacting, not me.


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    #521
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    gurramok wrote: »
    Oh and so says the man defending the Angelus and you have no bias at all :rolleyes: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66897106#post66897106

    Thanks for giving ammo to my argument that posters who defend religion to the hilt are indeed posting here with a biased opinion. I salute you ;)

    Oh dear. In the same way as I've regarded this issue, I really couldn't care less whether or not the Angelus is on. They've watered it down to such a degree that it is merely a minute of reflection, and even then I rarely actually watch RTÉ at that time anyway.


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    #522
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    I question the need for a Catholic ethos in public hospitals based on the fact that our society is secular and also the past interference of said ethos in administering care(and trials).
    I really am lost for words. A hospital public or not, religious or not can decide upon its own ethos and code of ethics. What you (Someone who has absolutely NO experience with healthcare) think is irrelevant when it comes to medical ethics. A board of governors for a hospital needs a variety of members, not just doctors or people trained in practicing medicine. There's the legal element of medicine, the psychological, moral and ethical elements of medicine.
    Furthermore, Irish society is on a whole not secular. As it stands a minority of people are entirely secular. A secular government can often be a good thing, a secular society however is not.
    I never said to ban religious from hospitals. They can be involved too but let people of other faiths and no faiths into the running of said hospitals for a fairer system where everyone including said religious can have a say. Whats wrong with that??
    You said you want to remove all traces of religion from hospitals. Stop changing your words. Even so, as it stands almost all faiths and people of no faith are represented in the hospital by its staff.
    If that is hate, you are simply over reacting, not me.
    No one is over reacting here but you.


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    #523
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I really am lost for words. A hospital public or not, religious or not can decide upon its own ethos and code of ethics. What you (Someone who has absolutely NO experience with healthcare) think is irrelevant when it comes to medical ethics. A board of governors for a hospital needs a variety of members, not just doctors or people trained in practicing medicine. There's the legal element of medicine, the psychological, moral and ethical elements of medicine.
    Furthermore, Irish society is on a whole not secular. As it stands a minority of people are entirely secular. A secular government can often be a good thing, a secular society however is not.

    I'm lost for words too. In case you missed it, there was religious interference in procedures as documented and what gives them the right to direct consultants and doctors in said procedures? (as per trials and symphysiotomy )
    Where is this minority? The church has seriously eroded its own influence on society through countless scandals and cover-ups over abuse. Together with a huge drop in mass attendance, what makes you think their influence is needed in running a hospital?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You said you want to remove all traces of religion from hospitals. Stop changing your words. Even so, as it stands almost all faiths and people of no faith are represented in the hospital by its staff.

    You'll have to quote me on that. I do not want the total control of a public hospital by the Catholic clergy, thats what you object to which is absurd.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    No one is over reacting here but you.

    I've been labelled(without evidence)a hater of religion, anti-Catholic, a bigot for sticking up for non-Catholic rights and i'm over reacting??


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    #524
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Did the trial get the go ahead? I know I've asked before, but....

    Symphisiotomy? Where, in the fracture clinic? Recently?

    You know, they used to use leeches too...


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    #525
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Legally yes but it was blocked by the board on religious grounds.

    Your 2nd & 3rd lines are an attempt at humour :)


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    #526
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    So the trial went ahead then? After the board had ensured that it would be in keeping with the ethos of the hospital? That's the job of the board. All boards can and should do this.

    When was the last time a symphisiotomy was performed? What does it have to do with you being asked your religion? Do you think that they will saw your pelvis in half 'cos your atheist?

    You know, for a long time I really thought you were a really good troll. Now I think you may have some serious issues and as such you can count me out. I no longer beleive it is morally justifiable to engage in a no holds barred argument with someone who clearly requires help and could best use his time finding that help instead of making a laughing stock out of himself .

    Good Luck.


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    #527
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    So the trial went ahead then? After the board had ensured that it would be in keeping with the ethos of the hospital? That's the job of the board. All boards can and should do this.

    When was the last time a symphisiotomy was performed? What does it have to do with you being asked your religion? Do you think that they will saw your pelvis in half 'cos your atheist?

    You know, for a long time I really thought you were a really good troll. Now I think you may have some serious issues and as such you can count me out. I no longer beleive it is morally justifiable to engage in a no holds barred argument with someone who clearly requires help and could best use his time finding that help instead of making a laughing stock out of himself .

    Good Luck.

    You know what, its you who maybe trolling. All that has been explained in post #508. It seems you are not reading the posts.

    So anyone who disagrees with you has 'serious issues & needs help', the excuses to defend the status quo just gets beyond the ridicoulous :rolleyes:


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    #528
    Ghost Estate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Ghost Estate


    this thread is still alive? Well **** me pink..


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    #529
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    I'm lost for words too. In case you missed it, there was religious interference in procedures as documented and what gives them the right to direct consultants and doctors in said procedures? (as per trials and symphysiotomy )
    They have something called a CODE OF ETHICS (Read the words in bold). It does not matter on what that code of ethics takes influence from, it's the code of ethics of the Mater hospital and that's pretty much the end of it. If you'd like to change it, take up a career as a Doctor or another healthcare worker, earn a pHD and then work for a few decades as a consultant or something and then perhaps your opinion on their code of ethics will matter. You do not have any experience whatsoever with working in healthcare. Therefore what you think with regard to a hospitals code of ethics isn't worth much.
    Where is this minority?
    In Ireland. Just because boards.ie appears to have userbase where a slight majority of the members are secular doesn't mean that the country is secular.
    The church has seriously eroded its own influence on society through countless scandals and cover-ups over abuse. Together with a huge drop in mass attendance, what makes you think their influence is needed in running a hospital?
    What is "The Church"? Is this a thread about your inane issues with short questions or is it about the Catholic Church?

    Considering they originally built and funded the hospital I think they do have right to have some influence in its running (Not that its "influence" affects the service they provide)
    You'll have to quote me on that. I do not want the total control of a public hospital by the Catholic clergy, thats what you object to which is absurd.



    I've been labelled(without evidence)a hater of religion, anti-Catholic, a bigot for sticking up for non-Catholic rights and i'm over reacting??
    I won't be quoting anything. Reading your posts once is enough, thank you very much. If you can't see it for yourself then no one can help you.


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    #530
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    They have something called a CODE OF ETHICS (Read the words in bold). It does not matter on what that code of ethics takes influence from, it's the code of ethics of the Mater hospital and that's pretty much the end of it. If you'd like to change it, take up a career as a Doctor or another healthcare worker, earn a pHD and then work for a few decades as a consultant or something and then perhaps your opinion on their code of ethics will matter. You do not have any experience whatsoever with working in healthcare. Therefore what you think with regard to a hospitals code of ethics isn't worth much.[\QUOTE]

    So you are an expert in healthcare then?:rolleyes: No need for a lecture on how to become a doctor.

    Do you understand that those code of ethics are damn worth nothing when it runs against the ethos of the hospital just like in the trials and the horrific ops? That part you conveniently missed.
    partyatmygaff wrote:
    Where is this minority?
    In Ireland. Just because boards.ie appears to have userbase where a slight majority of the members are secular doesn't mean that the country is secular. What is "The Church"? Is this a thread about your inane issues with short questions or is it about the Catholic Church?

    Catholic Church as after all I've told countless times by religious posters that Ireland is a Catholic country. Outside boards.ie, I know maybe 3 people out of must be 50 that are regular massgoers and one of them is my own mother who constantly reports at her horror of the lack of attendance by the under 50's at mass. So your summation that secularism is only evident on boards.ie is totally wrong.
    partyatmygaff wrote:
    Considering they originally built and funded the hospital I think they do have right to have some influence in its running (Not that its "influence" affects the service they provide)

    Oh, its some now instead of total. Progress at last. No-one answered why objectors like yourself are so passionate against people of non-Catholic origin having a say in the running of the hospital, one wonders what your agenda is.
    partyatmygaff wrote:
    I won't be quoting anything. Reading your posts once is enough, thank you very much. If you can't see it for yourself then no one can help you.

    Another who cannot back up any spurious claims and labels. Whats this help you suggest? No-one said.:confused:


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    #531
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    So you are an expert in healthcare then?:rolleyes: No need for a lecture on how to become a doctor.

    Do you understand that those code of ethics are damn worth nothing when it runs against the ethos of the hospital just like in the trials and the horrific ops? That part you conveniently missed.

    Yet another incorrect assertion. A doctor's code of ethics supercedes any ethos a Hospital may have or even guidelines that a Hospital may draw up. Breaching a code of ethics may, in some circumstances, result in a doctor losing their ability to practice medicine; going against a Hospital 'ethos' (insofar as such a thing exists) will, at worst, result in a doctor losing their job. And that is incredibly unlikely for a variety of reasons.


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    #532
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    Yet another incorrect assertion. A doctor's code of ethics supercedes any ethos a Hospital may have or even guidelines that a Hospital may draw up. Breaching a code of ethics may, in some circumstances, result in a doctor losing their ability to practice medicine; going against a Hospital 'ethos' (insofar as such a thing exists) will, at worst, result in a doctor losing their job. And that is incredibly unlikely for a variety of reasons.

    Then explain the cancer test event. Even though it was legally approved, it was blocked by the board as it went against its Catholic ethos.


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    #533
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Then explain the cancer test event. Even though it was legally approved, it was blocked by the board as it went against its Catholic ethos.

    How does not engaging in certain research trials breach a doctor's ethical guidelines?


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    #534
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    How does not engaging in certain research trials breach a doctor's ethical guidelines?

    Clarify what you mean as it was blocked by the hospitals own ethics committee based on that it was against the Catholic ethos but approved legally as not a breach of ethics by law. So any doctor should not have breached any ethics by law.

    From the original article
    THE people whose advice delayed the treatment of lung cancer patients at a major hospital are a priest, a nun and a businessman.
    The three members of the board of Dublin's Mater Hospital were key to the decision to stop trials of the drug for lung cancer patients.

    They objected because female patients who get could get pregnant would have to take contraceptives under the treatment.

    The subcommittee of the board - Fr Kevin Doran, Sr Eugene Nolan and John Morgan - were delegated the task of examining the conditions attached to testing the drug.

    They looked to see if the conditions contravened the hospital's Catholic ethos.

    Cancer specialists led by Dr John McCaffrey, who is based at the Mater, had already received legal permission to treat the Mater Hospital patients.

    This was because the proposal had already been given the green light by the ethics committee in Tallaght Hospital.

    The Tallaght committee has power to give permission for drugs trials in any hospital.

    Once an ethics committee complies with rigorous conditions they have the power to allow trials across the whole state - and that includes patients outside of their own hospitals.

    Previous decisions by the Mater Hospital on drug trials and questions of their legal standing were brought to the attention of the Department of Health several months ago but no action was taken.

    St Vincent's hospital cancer specialist, Dr John Crown who criticised the Mater delay as "sectarian" said he now applies for permission to carry out trials to the ethics committee in Tallaght Hospital. This is because his own hospital's ethics committee 18 months ago raised objections to one of his trials over the same concerns about the contraceptive clauses.


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    #535
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Clarify what you mean as it was blocked by the hospitals own ethics committee based on that it was against the Catholic ethos but approved legally as not a breach of ethics by law. So any doctor should not have breached any ethics by law.

    The law and a doctor's ethics are different things. You appear to be confused.

    Please explain why you believe that not participating in certain research is against a doctors ethical guidelines.


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    #536
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    The law and a doctor's ethics are different things. You appear to be confused.

    Please explain why you believe that not participating in certain research is against a doctors ethical guidelines.

    Why you asking me and where did I say that?

    I'm not on the board of the hospital to block a doctor carrying out unethical work where said work breaches the hospital ethos.


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    #537
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why you asking me and where did I say that? .

    You said a doctor's code of ethics are damn worth nothing when it runs against the ethos of the hospital. I asked you how not participating in research (as per the Hosputal's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. No answer yet, sadly.
    gurramok wrote: »
    I'm not on the board of the hospital......
    Clearly.


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    #538
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    You said a doctor's code of ethics are damn worth nothing when it runs against the ethos of the hospital. I asked you how not participating in research (as per the Hosputal's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. No answer yet, sadly.

    Why didn't you say that your question of participating or not was based on the hospitals decision rather that a doctors personal decision?:confused:

    In this case, it went against the hospitals ethics.(that ethics committee that makes the decisions) which in turn would go against a doctor whose ethics are not influence by religion. But the doctor has legal backing which was blocked by the board so it would breach the doctors ethics by not participating as the doctor would be breaking the law.

    The doctor is just a pawn in this case so I dunno why you are sidestepping responsibility from the board to the doctor but if you're going down that route..

    How far should a doctor go against his own personal ethics? We found that out in Kerry alright when a doctor denied a woman contraception on religious grounds. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/woman-denied-pill-on-religious-basis-129181.html


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    #539
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    So you are an expert in healthcare then?:rolleyes: No need for a lecture on how to become a doctor.
    Considering i'm working this year to get a place in medical school I daresay I know more about the job than you. I never lectured anyone on how to become a doctor. You see... Generally speaking you don't "become" a doctor by getting a pHD and working as a consultant for years. That shows to me how little you understand about the healthcare system. You're just talking drivel without any real knowledge.
    Do you understand that those code of ethics are damn worth nothing when it runs against the ethos of the hospital just like in the trials and the horrific ops? That part you conveniently missed.
    That entire paragraph makes me want to rip my hair out. The code of ethics coincides with the ethos of the hospital. They draw up their code of ethics. They also draw up their ethos. It seems you've "missed" quite a bit in any case.


    Catholic Church as after all I've told countless times by religious posters that Ireland is a Catholic country.
    So you're admitting you started this thread as an attack (Or to voice your displeasure for want of a better phrase) on the Catholic church? Oddly enough you were saying quite different a few posts back.
    and that it has nothing Outside boards.ie, I know maybe 3 people out of must be 50 that are regular massgoers and one of them is my own mother who constantly reports at her horror of the lack of attendance by the under 50's at mass.
    Judging by your posts I amn't at all surprised that you know few religious people.
    So your summation that secularism is only evident on boards.ie is totally wrong.
    First of all I never said that secularism is evident only on boards.ie You misunderstood me. I said that a slight majority of the userbase of the forum are secular and that that gives you a skewed representation of the rest of the country.
    Oh, its some now instead of total. Progress at last.
    Did I ever say they deserve 100% authoritative control over the hospital? No I didn't. So stop making things up.
    No-one answered why objectors like yourself are so passionate against people of non-Catholic origin having a say in the running of the hospital
    Wow. Just wow.
    I will repeat it one final time. Their job is to ensure the smooth running of their hospital. They do that and they do it well without discriminating against any particular group. Therefore they are competent at their job. Therefore there is no problem and no need for unnecessary change. All that matters is that they are competent at their job. Nothing else.
    one wonders what your agenda is.
    Oh yeah, I might've forgotten to mention. I'm actually a Catholic preacher whose sole purpose in life is to promote the Catholic church. Too bad I amn't even a Catholic.
    Another who cannot back up any spurious claims and labels.
    No, just another person tired of your bickering and nonsensical points and "rebuttals". I don't have time to read rubbish twice i'm afraid.
    Whats this help you suggest? No-one said.:confused:
    Here's an idea. Try and get an understanding of how hospitals work before you type.


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    #540
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Ghost Estate wrote: »
    this thread is still alive? Well **** me pink..

    Well, at least the tags are entertaining.


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    #541
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Well, at least the tags are entertaining.

    That's all we can hope for on a thread like this. Admittedly I posted 2 of my own there :pac:


This discussion has been closed.
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