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I was asked for my religion today..

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    #542
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    In this case, it went against the hospitals ethics.(that ethics committee that makes the decisions) which in turn would go against a doctor whose ethics are not influence by religion. But the doctor has legal backing which was blocked by the board so it would breach the doctors ethics by not participating as the doctor would be breaking the law.

    Wtf does that mean....?:D

    Again, how does not participating in research (as per the Hospital's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. Please quote the specific aspect of a doctor's code of ethics which is breached when answering.


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    #543
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    The tags are what makes the thread worthwhile. Two of them are mine actually :D


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    #544
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Considering i'm working this year to get a place in medical school I daresay I know more about the job than you. I never lectured anyone on how to become a doctor. You see... Generally speaking you don't "become" a doctor by getting a pHD and working as a consultant for years. That shows to me how little you understand about the healthcare system. You're just talking drivel without any real knowledge.

    Jumping to conclusions again, assuming you are indeed a medical student and not just saying it. I took your knowledge with a pinch of salt by asking not to lecture me. Do you know what rollyeyes mean?:rolleyes:
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    That entire paragraph makes me want to rip my hair out. The code of ethics coincides with the ethos of the hospital. They draw up their code of ethics. They also draw up their ethos. It seems you've "missed" quite a bit in any case.

    Yes, they have an ethics committee. No need to pull your hair out. As in this case, the ethics crossed into religious beliefs.

    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So you're admitting you started this thread as an attack (Or to voice your displeasure for want of a better phrase) on the Catholic church? Oddly enough you were saying quite different a few posts back.

    Judging by your posts I amn't at all surprised that you know few religious people.

    First of all I never said that secularism is evident only on boards.ie You misunderstood me. I said that a slight majority of the userbase of the forum are secular and that that gives you a skewed representation of the rest of the country.

    No, I didn't start this thread as an attack, why you think that? Well, where I am, secularism is flourishing, maybe you need to visit the cities and towns where most of the population are.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Did I ever say they deserve 100% authoritative control over the hospital? No I didn't. So stop making things up.
    Wow. Just wow.
    I will repeat it one final time. Their job is to ensure the smooth running of their hospital. They do that and they do it well without discriminating against any particular group. Therefore they are competent at their job. Therefore there is no problem and no need for unnecessary change. All that matters is that they are competent at their job. Nothing else.

    Oh yeah, I might've forgotten to mention. I'm actually a Catholic preacher whose sole purpose in life is to promote the Catholic church. Too bad I amn't even a Catholic.

    No, just another person tired of your bickering and nonsensical points and "rebuttals". I don't have time to read rubbish twice i'm afraid.

    Here's an idea. Try and get an understanding of how hospitals work before you type.

    Out of all this ranting, your first line is the most important. Its important in that you finally see the light in removing 100% authoritative control of the Catholic clergy from the running of the hospital and where competence is not overruled by religious teachings. I'm just baffled as to why you didn't say that earlier?:confused:


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    #545
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    Wtf does that mean....?:D

    Again, how does not participating in research (as per the Hospital's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. Please quote the specific aspect of a doctor's code of ethics which is breached when answering.

    I explained it in quite enough detail already, not my fault you cannot understand the ethics explanation. Why are you trying to put doctors as piggy in the middle regarding the decisions of the religious board?

    Have you something against doctors practising certain aspects of their work?:confused:


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    #546
    farna_boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭farna_boy


    gurramok wrote: »
    I have a belief that I don't belief in what you believe in for example. Thats what I mean.

    In fairness, the thread should have ended after this post.


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    #547
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    Jumping to conclusions again, assuming you are indeed a medical student and not just saying it. I took your knowledge with a pinch of salt by asking not to lecture me. Do you know what rollyeyes mean?:rolleyes:



    Yes, they have an ethics committee. No need to pull your hair out. As in this case, the ethics crossed into religious beliefs.




    No, I didn't start this thread as an attack, why you think that? Well, where I am, secularism is flourishing, maybe you need to visit the cities and towns where most of the population are.



    Out of all this ranting, your first line is the most important. Its important in that you finally see the light in removing 100% authoritative control of the Catholic clergy from the running of the hospital and where competence is not overruled by religious teachings. I'm just baffled as to why you didn't say that earlier?:confused:

    Earlier you claimed you didn't want religion removed completely from hospitals yet now you speak of how important it is to do that.

    So which is it? Or do you even know what you are talking about anymore?


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    #548
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    I explained it in quite enough detail already, not my fault you cannot understand the ethics explanation. Why are you trying to put doctors as piggy in the middle regarding the decisions of the religious board?

    Have you something against doctors practising certain aspects of their work?:confused:

    You havent explained yourself clearly at all. I just want a simple answer to the following question:

    How does not participating in research (as per the Hospital's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. Please quote the specific aspect of a doctor's code of ethics which is breached when answering.


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    #549
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    Jumping to conclusions again, assuming you are indeed a medical student and not just saying it. I took your knowledge with a pinch of salt by asking not to lecture me. Do you know what rollyeyes mean?:rolleyes:
    WHOA

    I cannot believe what I am reading. Did you even read my post at all?
    I said I am working to get in to medical school, that means I aim to be a medical student, not that I am one. So stop trying to act as if i'm the one making things up.
    Yes, they have an ethics committee.
    * Slow clap * Did anyone dispute that? No. No need to fill up your posts with random information that we all already know.
    No need to pull your hair out. As in this case, the ethics crossed into religious beliefs.
    The "ethics crossed into religious beliefs". Err... You do know that ethics differ from hospital to hospital right?

    No, I didn't start this thread as an attack, why you think that?
    Hmm...
    Well, where I am, secularism is flourishing, maybe you need to visit the cities and towns where most of the population are.
    No, maybe you need to actually know what you're talking about before going around making posts. Secularism is growing, that does not mean it has a majority.


    Out of all this ranting, your first line is the most important.
    Ah yes, I'm the one who's raving and ranting over the unimportant. :rolleyes:
    Its important in that you finally see the light in removing 100% authoritative control of the Catholic clergy from the running of the hospital and where competence is not overruled by religious teachings.
    The Catholic clergy today have very little control over the Mater hospital. I'd be quite wary of going to a hospital ran entirely by the clergy. You see, clergymen generally aren't qualified doctors.
    I'm just baffled as to why you didn't say that earlier?confused.gif
    Sorry if this offends you but...
    Who the HELL taught you how to read? They deserve a slap across the back of their head.

    Nowhere in that post did I say anything different to what i've been saying in the past few pages of this thread.


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    #550
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Earlier you claimed you didn't want religion removed completely from hospitals yet now you speak of how important it is to do that.

    So which is it? Or do you even know what you are talking about anymore?

    If you're not going to bother quote what I said in earlier posts, i'm sure I did say that 2 solutions are possible when running a hospital(not to be confused with having chaplins etc).

    The above solution you highlight(everyone of all religions and no religions having a say) and the 2nd solution(no religious involvement = independent or state imposed board members). It has to be better than a 100% controlled Catholic public hospital at present. Does that answer you?
    drkpower wrote:
    You havent explained yourself clearly at all. I just want a simple answer to the following question:

    How does not participating in research (as per the Hospital's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. Please quote the specific aspect of a doctor's code of ethics which is breached when answering.

    I did answer you. What part do you not understand? What relevance has it to do with religious involvement of said decision?
    In this case, it went against the hospitals ethics.(that ethics committee that makes the decisions) which in turn would go against a doctor whose ethics are not influence by religion. But the doctor has legal backing which was blocked by the board so it would breach the doctors ethics by not participating as the doctor would be breaking the law.


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    #551
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    [QUOTE=gurramok;68819293Why are you trying to put doctors as piggy in the middle regarding the decisions of the religious board? [/quote]
    The "religious" board? When did you invent that?
    IIRC the only board on the Mater hospital is the board of governors who consist of Doctors, Judges, Businessmen and members of the church who founded the hospital. All of the people on the board offer their own expertise in the running of the hospital.
    Have you something against doctors practising (sic) certain aspects of their work?:confused:
    Doctors work first and foremost under a code of ethics. Lobotomies are considered to be medical procedures, you could even call it a "certain aspect of their work". That doesn't mean they're allowed to do it.


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    #552
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The "ethics crossed into religious beliefs". Err... You do know that ethics differ from hospital to hospital right?

    You knew that didn't you? Well, the ethics of the Mater differs from that of Tallaght as there is religious involvement at the Mater. If you are studying to get into medical school, you must know that already:)

    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    No, maybe you need to actually know what you're talking about before going around making posts. Secularism is growing, that does not mean it has a majority.

    Its near enough I reckon judging by the age difference.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The Catholic clergy today have very little control over the Mater hospital. I'd be quite wary of going to a hospital ran entirely by the clergy. You see, clergymen generally aren't qualified doctors.

    They run the hospital. Have you not read the About section on the Mater website? Sheesh.:mad:
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Sorry if this offends you but...
    Who the HELL taught you how to read? They deserve a slap across the back of their head.

    Nowhere in that post did I say anything different to what i've been saying in the past few pages of this thread.

    A teacher taught me to read, have you something against the school system now that you see me who can read and type in quite excellent English as 'illiterate'?

    Now, you are changing your mind again! So what exactly do you want..

    1 - Do you wish to see the Catholic ethos board stay as it is?
    2 - Do you wish to see the Catholic ethos board lose 100% control and invite other religions and non-religious onto it?
    3 - Do you wish to see the Catholic ethos board as state controlled?


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    #553
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    What part do you not understand?

    All of it; its gobbledygoook.

    Lets try again:
    How does not participating in research (as per the Hospital's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. You might see if you can quote a specific part of a doctor's code of ethics this time.


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    #554
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    You knew that didn't you? Well, the ethics of the Mater differs from that of Tallaght as there is religious involvement at the Mater. If you are studying to get into medical school, you must know that already:)

    And hes wrong again. These two guys are on the Board of AMNCH:


    Venerable Gordon Linney
    Venerable David Pierpoint



    Seem pretty religous to me.

    Do you now anything about any of this?:D


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    #555
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    You knew that didn't you? Well, the ethics of the Mater differs from that of Tallaght as there is religious involvement at the Mater. If you are studying to get into medical school, you must know that already:)
    I'm actually busy studying for the Leaving cert to get in to medical school. That said though, it doesn't take a wannabe medical student to know that every hospital has a different code of ethics. In fact, I even told you that about five times throughout this thread.
    Its near enough I reckon judging by the age difference.
    Incoherent but i'll take a guess and say you're talking about secularism across different ages? You'd be surprised, not all young people are secular and not all old people are religious. Even at that, secular people are still in the minority in Ireland.
    They run the hospital. Have you not read the About section on the Mater website? Sheesh.mad.gif
    And your point is...?
    They are competent at their job in running the hospital. That's all that matters to the patient. I don't see why 2 or 3 clergymen makes you seethe with rage.
    A teacher taught me how to read,. Have you something against the school system now considering the fact that you call me,
    a person who reads and writes quite excellent English, as being illiterate. that you see me who can read and type in quite excellent English as 'illiterate'?
    They must not have taught you very well if that's what you call "quite excellent English". I don't mean to insult you or to offend you but take care in your posts. They're borderline incoherent from time to time.
    Now, you are changing your mind again! So what exactly do you want..
    I'm the one changing my mind, am I?
    1 - Do you wish to see the Catholic ethos board stay as it is?
    2 - Do you wish to see the Catholic ethos board lose 100% control and invite other religions and non-religious onto it?
    3 - Do you wish to see the Catholic ethos board as state controlled?
    None of the above.
    I want the BOARD OF GOVERNORS (There's no such thing as a Catholic ethos board in a hospital) to be a group of varied people competent enough to run a hospital.


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    #556
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,240 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    gurramok wrote: »
    I was asked for my religion today..
    "Here... take it. I don't use it."


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    #557
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    All of it; its gobbledygoook.

    Lets try again:
    How does not participating in research (as per the Hospital's decision) runs contrary to a doctor's code of ethics. You might see if you can quote a specific part of a doctor's code of ethics this time.

    As you can't see to understand my logical explanation. Perhaps:

    "Council members primary duty of care, above all other concerns is to promote the interest of the Council as a whole"

    Not Religious Orders.
    drkpower wrote: »
    And hes wrong again. These two guys are on the Board of AMNCH:

    Venerable Gordon Linney
    Venerable David Pierpoint

    Seem pretty religous to me.

    Do you now anything about any of this?:D

    Wrong about what? They ain't on the Mater.


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    #558
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »



    Wrong about what? They ain't on the Mater.
    I rest my case.


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    #559
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The "religious" board? When did you invent that?
    IIRC the only board on the Mater hospital is the board of governors who consist of Doctors, Judges, Businessmen and members of the church who founded the hospital. All of the people on the board offer their own expertise in the running of the hospital.

    Doctors work first and foremost under a code of ethics. Lobotomies are considered to be medical procedures, you could even call it a "certain aspect of their work". That doesn't mean they're allowed to do it.

    Have you read the thread at all? All members of that board are Catholic. 3 members in the trials article blocked a procedure based on religious grounds.

    Where are the Protestant & Muslim members of the board?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I'm actually busy studying for the Leaving cert to get in to medical school. That said though, it doesn't take a wannabe medical student to know that every hospital has a different code of ethics. In fact, I even told you that about five times throughout this thread.

    How old are you to understand the issue? Nevermind, thought you would of known that Tallaght hospital actually over ruled other hospitals ethics, you knew that right? :)
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Incoherent but i'll take a guess and say you're talking about secularism across different ages? You'd be surprised, not all young people are secular and not all old people are religious. Even at that, secular people are still in the minority in Ireland.

    So you say. Maybe when you are older you will see the real world where secularism is indeed thriving without religion rammed down our throats since high babies class.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    And your point is...?
    They are competent at their job in running the hospital. That's all that matters to the patient. I don't see why 2 or 3 clergymen makes you seethe with rage.

    I've already told you but you will not listen nor will you read the posts. The board stopped a test for cancer patients based on religion. How hard is that to understand?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    They must not have taught you very well if that's what you call "quite excellent English". I don't mean to insult you or to offend you but take care in your posts. They're borderline incoherent from time to time.

    My posts are quite coherent thank you ;)
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I'm the one changing my mind, am I?

    None of the above.
    I want the BOARD OF GOVERNORS (There's no such thing as a Catholic ethos board in a hospital) to be a group of varied people competent enough to run a hospital.

    Well, you should pick number 2 as the Mater is No. 1.


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    #560
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I rest my case.

    Rest what?

    Tut tut, now the 2 of ye look at the Mater website http://www.mater.ie/aboutus/boardofgovernors.htm


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    #561
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    As you can't see to understand my logical explanation. Perhaps:

    "Council members primary duty of care, above all other concerns is to promote the interest of the Council as a whole"

    Not Religious Orders..

    The above has nothing to do with a doctor's code of ethics. Try again.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Wrong about what? They ain't on the Mater.

    No they are on the board of AMNCH, which you suggested didnt have religious involvement. You are so out of your depth its comical.


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    #562
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Rest what?

    Tut tut, now the 2 of ye look at the Mater website http://www.mater.ie/aboutus/boardofgovernors.htm

    Yes, 2 religous on Board of the Mater, 2 on the Board of AMNCH.

    This is funny!:D


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    #563
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    The above has nothing to do with a doctor's code of ethics. Try again.

    Enlighten us oh wise one. Your question is again passing the buck from the board to the doctor.

    drkpower wrote: »
    No they are on the board of AMNCH, which you suggested didnt have religious involvement. You are so out of your depth its comical.

    Yes, 2 religous on Board of the Mater, 2 on the Board of AMNCH.

    This is funny!:D

    The AMNCH is not exclusively Catholic run. The Mater is. Big difference. Now wipe that smile off your face :D


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    #564
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Enlighten us oh wise one. Your question is again passing the buck from the board to the doctor.
    I know what a doctor's code of ethics are. I strongly suspect you dont. But you could prove me wrong by answering the question
    gurramok wrote: »
    The AMNCH is not exclusively Catholic run. The Mater is. Big difference. Now wipe that smile off your face :D

    Where do you get that idea from? They have the same religous involvement on their board. They have the same religous history.

    :D:D


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    #565
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    drkpower wrote: »
    Yes, 2 religous on Board of the Mater, 2 on the Board of AMNCH.

    This is funny!:D

    Type the Binary! Kills all mad threads, dead! Although it may be understood better than English in this case...

    Yeah love the tags on this thread too, v good!:pac:


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    #566
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    drkpower wrote: »
    I know what a doctor's code of ethics are. I strongly suspect you dont. But you could prove me wrong by answering the question

    Equally likewise as you have not put forward anything related to a doctor's code of ethics

    drkpower wrote: »
    Where do you get that idea from? They have the same religous involvement on their board. They have the same religous history.

    :D:D

    Oh dear. Do you know how they run hospitals? I don't think you do. Can't believe I have to explain this to a poster who claims to know a code of ethics for doctors...

    Certain hospitals have different ethos, in this case the Mater(& Vincents) has a Catholic ethos while Tallaght does not. The religious involvement of members of Tallaght do not have a single exclusivity to influence decisions for a particular religion like the Mater does.


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    #567
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    Have you read the thread at all? All members of that board are Catholic. 3 members in the trials article blocked a procedure based on religious grounds.

    Where are the Protestant & Muslim members of the board?
    I've read the thread. You read every tenth word of every post by the sound of your replies so don't give me the "Have you read...?" line as a rebuttal.

    3 members in the trial article blocked a procedure on ethical grounds. They must obey by their own code of ethics whether said ethics are derived from Religion or otherwise.

    How old are you to understand the issue?
    :rolleyes: (By the way, what "issue" are you talking about?)

    So you say. Maybe when you are older you will see the real world where secularism is indeed thriving without religion rammed down our throats since high babies class.

    I do not need to get any older to see the world around me. Stop acting as if you're a bucket of wisdom and insight when you're not.

    Secularism is not thriving, it's growing steadily but as of yet does not hold a majority.
    I've already told you but you will not listen nor will you read the posts. The board stopped a test for cancer patients based on religion. How hard is that to understand?
    You've told me and i've read your posts. The board did indeed stop a lung cancer research project based on their code of ethics. Quite simple to understand really. They have every right to stop a research project that goes against their code of ethics.
    My posts are quite coherent thank you wink.gif
    Not particularly but err... belief as you wish ;)


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    #568
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    Rest what?

    Tut tut, now the 2 of ye look at the Mater website http://www.mater.ie/aboutus/boardofgovernors.htm
    lolwut?


    Swim to the shallow end, my friend. The deep end's not for you.


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    #569
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I've read the thread. You read every tenth word of every post by the sound of your replies so don't give me the "Have you read...?" line as a rebuttal.

    3 members in the trial article blocked a procedure on ethical grounds. They must obey by their own code of ethics whether said ethics are derived from Religion or otherwise.

    Yes, a priest, a nun and a fervent Catholic businessman. After all they were upholding the Catholic ethos of the hospital!

    Why would a Muslim uphold the Catholic ethos of the hospital? Its quite amusing that no poster can answer that.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    :rolleyes: (By the way, what "issue" are you talking about?)


    I do not need to get any older to see the world around me. Stop acting as if you're a bucket of wisdom and insight when you're not.

    I am a bucket of wisdom thank you son :D

    Wondering if you have enough experience of the subject ;)
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Secularism is not thriving, it's growing steadily but as of yet does not hold a majority.

    If its not thriving as you say, why has mass attendance dwindled?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You've told me and i've read your posts. The board did indeed stop a lung cancer research project based on their code of ethics. Quite simple to understand really. They have every right to stop a research project that goes against their code of ethics.

    You have no problem with the decision based on their religious beliefs then?
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    lolwut?
    Swim to the shallow end, my friend. The deep end's not for you.

    I can't swim and no I don't blame religion for that :D


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    #570
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes, a priest, a nun and a fervent Catholic businessman. After all they were upholding the Catholic ethos of the hospital!

    Why would a Muslim uphold the Catholic ethos of the hospital? Its quite amusing that no poster can answer that.
    They uphold the ethics of their hospital or if they wish they can take it up to be modified.
    I am a bucket of wisdom thank you son biggrin.gif

    Wondering if you have enough experience of the subject wink.gif
    :confused:
    Who's the one coming off as being completely clueless in this thread again? Less of the "comedy".

    If its not thriving as you say, why has mass attendance dwindled?
    Not going to mass doesn't make you secular. Disregarding religion in its entirety makes you secular.
    You have no problem with the decision based on their religious beliefs then?
    The decision coincides with their code of ethics. That's all that matters. Whether or not said code of ethics has some sections derived from religious belief is irrelevant.


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    #571
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes, a priest, a nun and a fervent Catholic businessman. After all they were upholding the Catholic ethos of the hospital!

    Why would a Muslim uphold the Catholic ethos of the hospital? Its quite amusing that no poster can answer that.

    I haven't seen anything that says the businessmen are fervent Catholics?

    And if the muslim knew that that was the ethos and background of the hospital and appreciated that and was willing to keep it up he might have no problem with that.
    The same as a catholic in a muslim country
    I am a bucket of wisdom thank you son :D

    Wondering if you have enough experience of the subject ;)

    No need to be condescending


    If its not thriving as you say, why has mass attendance dwindled?

    No one said it was thriving, they said that the majority were still religious of one form or another. And yes mass attendance has dwindles but many still attend or practice in their own ways


This discussion has been closed.
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