Metro North or DART Underground

DWCommuter

Plowman wrote: »

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Take passengers on a mostly empty DART train and transfer them to a luas. The luas will look pretty full. Considering MN will be similar in rolling stock terms to the luas, then it would look pretty full as well. In saying that though, I can understand the appeal of an underground with frequent inner city stops and how it would attract volume.

Plowman

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DWCommuter

Plowman wrote: »

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It may be overstretched, but I compensated for it by saying that I can see how an inner city metro could generate volume. So yes potential volume is crucial. But I don't think anyone has ever questioned the potential volume for MN anyway.

I'd like to point out to you that DU is no less urban than MN. While the DU project does penetrate the suburbs, it has great penetration in the inner city as well. MN also has its fields and no mans land too.

As for luas turning a profit, if you are basing this against Irish Rail services, then please realise that there is a completely different method of accounting between the two. Veolia don't have to account for the infrastructure and light rail has cheaper costs anyway. While CIE and Irish Rail in particular are a woefully mismanaged, union ravaged, entity anyway, I always draw the line at what is fair. To hold the luas up as a successful profit making project against Irish Rail services, is not like with like.

tharlear

While CIE and Irish Rail in particular are a woefully mismanaged, union ravaged, entity anyway, I always draw the line at what is fair

While your agruments and logic in supporting DU over MN are mostly convincing from a transportation and network side, the best argument for metro north are your own words above.

You state DU will increase capacity of the system. By this I think you mean that DU with allow for increased capacity. Cie management and unions will never allow you to actualise those potential increases in capacity with out drawing their 1000KG of flesh .

Having stated the above I would still invest in DU over MN in the hope that one day CIE will be abolished. CIe cycling is easier

runway16

Plowman wrote: »

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Many Cities's urban transits are shockingly empty off peak. I've been in plenty of empty Tube carriages in my time...

Johnny Utah

I didn't vote as both projects are probably among the most important in the history of the State and should be prioritised accordingly.

runway16

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I didn't vote as both projects are probably among the most important in the history of the State and should be prioritised accordingly.

Exactly. If we get drwan into an either / or arguement, then we have lost it. There will only be an either / or choice because our government cannot grasp the nettle of real public sector and government reform. The progress of the country will again have been killed by the Public sector unions for the sake of the bloated managerial levels of the service.

Nurses and Guards will take pay cuts, we will not get our infrastructure, and the managerial levels will be safe on their big salaries with **** all to do. Some country.

Lets not get drawn into this debate, because that is exactly what the government want. - its all (MN and DU) or nothing.

DWCommuter

Pardon my absence from here over the last week, but this poll looks like a result.

DWCommuter

runway16 wrote: »

There will only be an either / or choice because our government cannot grasp the nettle of real public sector and government reform. The progress of the country will again have been killed by the Public sector unions for the sake of the bloated managerial levels of the service.

Its already happening.

Metrostar

DWCommuter wrote: »

Pardon my absence from here over the last week, but this poll looks like a result.

A flawed result, though, as the option of 'both' was not included. It would be the same as asking if the government should spend money on unemployment benefit or pensions.

DWCommuter

Metrostar wrote: »

A flawed result, though, as the option of 'both' was not included. It would be the same as asking if the government should spend money on unemployment benefit or pensions.

I refer you to the first post in this thread and your comparison above is not like with like.

DWCommuter

runway16 wrote: »

Lets not get drawn into this debate, because that is exactly what the government want. - its all (MN and DU) or nothing.

This is a debate that is vital if at least one of the projects is to go ahead. The Government don't want this debate at all. They are not conspiring to satisfy Irish society with maybe one of these projects. They don't care. MN is their vanity project since 2000 or thereabouts. DU is the project that was dragged to the table by lobbying and had zero Government/media interest until then. But this Government are in such a financial melting pot that they will happily (albeit justified by economic jargon) dump both projects.

Let me spell out the reality here.

Despite MN being a much acclaimed PPP, that all and sundry spout off about not costing the state anything until its built, the same state is facing a financial blackhole. We currently have enough money until the middle of 2011 at best. After that we go back to the bond markets, who are currently offering the unpleasant rate of approx 9%. This rate may drop if the forthcoming budget doles out the pain for real. But this budget is only part of a 4 year cutting spree. If it fails to convince the markets, then we go towards EU bailout country by next summer.

Just because 500 million of a loan towards this project was promised by the EU, does not make this country viable enough to deliver it. That loan was agreed amid a rapidly deteriorating financial landscape. This also affects the viability of DU as it also has a PPP aspect.

This country is at a stage where even a PPP 250 million per annum repayment commitment for both these projects would be under the microscope such is the dire state of the country's finances even in 5 to 7 years time. (and thats without the continued upfront costs involved) Just like this Government tries to talk its way into getting reasonably priced loans, they try to convince us that these projects will happen. In fact Noel Dempsey was quoted this year as saying that the rail line to Navan will go ahead! Bonkers and the bond markets know that so far this Government have been talking ****e and that is why the rate is creeping up.

Ultimately the first budget (of a 4 year plan) in a few weeks time will need to prove a point and even if it does, how much cutting in health, education etc. will go untolerated and without protest. All well and good talking about building these things when costs are lower, but this country is actually in a very very bad financial state, with no evidence to suggest that economic growth will return to a level that can sustain the PPP gamble at this moment in time.

Aard

Even if only 20 people move from getting the dole to earning an average wage as a result of the capex, their taxes and lack of dole pay back the government's annual outlay of €250m, with the added benefit of helping grow the economy.


EDIT: See http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68993301&postcount=46

Roryhy

Aard wrote: »

Even if only 20 people move from getting the dole to earning an average wage as a result of the capex, their taxes and lack of dole pay back the government's annual outlay of €250m, with the added benefit of helping grow the economy.

My maths skills may be rusty but how can 20 working people pay back €250,000,000?

Aard

Roryhy wrote: »

My maths skills may be rusty but how can 20 working people pay back €250,000,000?

Wow, do I feel stupid I am, of course, completely and utterly incorrect. I retract my statement entirely. (Gotta stop posting just after waking up!)

DWCommuter

Aard wrote: »

Wow, do I feel stupid I am, of course, completely and utterly incorrect. I retract my statement entirely. (Gotta stop posting just after waking up!)

Your forgiven.:D