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Lost documentation and unsigned facility letter

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  • 30-10-2010 7:48am
    #1
    kathy2
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭


    My bank gave me a top up on a loan a few years ago and I never signed the facility letter, what does this mean in reality

    Also I think they have lost my documentation and have no copies of my mortgage and so on.

    Any ideas comments given that they seem to have thrown away the rule book


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    #2
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    if they take you to court for repayment and are unable to produce the signed Consumer Credit Act statement then you have a good chance of the debt being declared invalid.


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    #3
    unclebill98
    Registered Users Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭unclebill98


    Any one who's tried this has failed to get the debt written off.

    I'm pretty sure if need be they'd produce bank statements showing the funds either being lodged to your account or your solicitors account and then onto you.

    As for the court thing, it works both ways, are you going to get up and say you never asked for it and that its not your debt?


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    #4
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    *I'm sensing a person who had read a link his 'buddy' sent him that claims you can get out of your obligations via technicalities*

    The debt remains enforceable and a judgment can be sought, interest, penalties, surcharges and legal fees can continue to accrue.

    Also, if the lender 'finds' the original document, you are fcuked. :pac:


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    #5
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    3DataModem wrote: »
    if they take you to court for repayment and are unable to produce the signed Consumer Credit Act statement then you have a good chance of the debt being declared invalid.

    Nope, untrue.


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    #6
    kathy2
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭kathy2


    As it happens the funds went directly to an investment fund that crashed and burned and is still the souce of litigation.

    I know I will end up paying them but they are trying to enforce terms that never existed the world is gone crazy.


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    #7
    unclebill98
    Registered Users Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭unclebill98


    The best you could hope for is a flexible arrangement to honour your debt.


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    #8
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    *I'm sensing a person who had read a link his 'buddy' sent him that claims you can get out of your obligations via technicalities*

    The debt remains enforceable and a judgment can be sought, interest, penalties, surcharges and legal fees can continue to accrue.

    Also, if the lender 'finds' the original document, you are fcuked. :pac:

    And tell me, if a valid signed facility letter can not be found or does not exist, how can interest, penalties or surcharges continue to accrue.

    The facility letter stipulates the interest rate and the surcharge rate so if one does not exist, interest and penalties cannot be charged. For that matter, if an accepted facility letter cannot be found, no penalties of any kind can be levied as how the hell could anyone prove that he is in arrears (if no record of the agreed repayment schedule or expiry of the loan exist).

    More great advice!

    The OP should offer to pay back the original capital amount and no more, and the Bank would be foolish not to accept. In fact if he offered to pay back the original capital amount over a term starting now, it would be a good result for the Bank.


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    #9
    unclebill98
    Registered Users Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭unclebill98


    Chipboard wrote: »
    And tell me, if a valid signed facility letter can not be found or does not exist, how can interest, penalties or surcharges continue to accrue.

    The facility letter stipulates the interest rate and the surcharge rate so if one does not exist, interest and penalties cannot be charged. For that matter, if an accepted facility letter cannot be found, no penalties of any kind can be levied as how the hell could anyone prove that he is in arrears (if no record of the agreed repayment schedule or expiry of the loan exist).

    More great advice!

    The OP should offer to pay back the original capital amount and no more, and the Bank would be foolish not to accept. In fact if he offered to pay back the original capital amount over a term starting now, it would be a good result for the Bank.

    The penalties one be a standard banking charge and not specific to the individual loan etc, as for the interest rate. Chances are that the interest being charged is less than the current one on the same type of product.

    Unlike the the current rich sods being bailed out the chances are the bank will not let the OP off so lightly. As I said the best the OP could hope for is a more flexible arrangement on the outstanding amount, this would then be dictated by the OP current personal situation.


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    #10
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Chipboard wrote: »
    And tell me, if a valid signed facility letter can not be found or does not exist, how can interest, penalties or surcharges continue to accrue.

    The facility letter stipulates the interest rate and the surcharge rate so if one does not exist, interest and penalties cannot be charged. For that matter, if an accepted facility letter cannot be found, no penalties of any kind can be levied as how the hell could anyone prove that he is in arrears (if no record of the agreed repayment schedule or expiry of the loan exist).

    More great advice!

    The OP should offer to pay back the original capital amount and no more, and the Bank would be foolish not to accept. In fact if he offered to pay back the original capital amount over a term starting now, it would be a good result for the Bank.

    You misunderstand, and your stance does not change the fact that anyone who has tried this in court has not been successful.

    This thread is veering towards legal advice and legal advice is not given out on this site.

    OP, you need to consult your solicitor (which you are already doing on another matter) to to ensure you receive the correct advice. You cannot trust what is said to you on these forums as you have no background on those people.


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    #11
    unclebill98
    Registered Users Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭unclebill98


    My thoughts exactly. If the OP is going to take a I'm not paying stance because of the lack of sign documents then the legal road it the one they must go down.


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    #12
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    You misunderstand, and your stance does not change the fact that anyone who has tried this in court has not been successful.

    This thread is veering towards legal advice and legal advice is not given out on this site.

    OP, you need to consult your solicitor (which you are already doing on another matter) to to ensure you receive the correct advice. You cannot trust what is said to you on these forums as you have no background on those people.

    Not true. I have been in precisely this situation and the bank weren't stupid enough to take it to court.

    I am not giving legal advice I am speaking based on first hand experience which is more than most people on here do.

    A bank which finds itself with a loan and no documentation will get the capital back and no more unless the borrower is a pushover.

    And by the way if you want to moderate this forum become a Moderator.


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    #13
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    kaizer has advised OP to get legal advice, its simple as. You may have experience first hand but so does a lot of people and each case is different. A top up was granted and would be easily recognised as a top up on the original agrement and as such these terms would be enforced. Its not straight forward,

    OP if you wish to not repat seek legal advice. If you wish to repay then try come to some arrangement to pay it off.


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    #14
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    chris85 wrote: »
    kaizer has advised OP to get legal advice, its simple as. You may have experience first hand but so does a lot of people and each case is different. A top up was granted and would be easily recognised as a top up on the original agrement and as such these terms would be enforced. Its not straight forward,

    OP if you wish to not repat seek legal advice. If you wish to repay then try come to some arrangement to pay it off.

    Ahh, I don't want to hurt your feelings but your not a mod either.

    If someone discusses anything on boards which could be the subject of a court case (property, business, divorce, drugs, drunk driving) and someone gives their opinion, then according to your definition they are giving legal advice.

    I am not a solicitor so I am not purporting to give legal advice.

    You are correct its not straightforward. What is?

    I am giving the op a starting position with which to commence negotiations. She may end up at either end of the spectrum (pays it all back V pays none of it back) or somewhere in between depending on how good a negotiator she is.

    Its up to her whether she seeks legal advice - that will depend on the amount of the loan (because a solicitor will probably cost c€10 - €15k min) and how competent she feels at dealing with it herself.

    I think my advice was more useful to her than your advice. She thinks so too - ask her. Any tool can go out and pay a solicitor to lose a case for them and most solicitors operating outside of the major cities are useless when it comes to dealing with debt recovery issues. A good banking solicitor would cost more than it would be viable to pay (unless it was a substantial loan).


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    #15
    stepbar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    kathy2 wrote: »
    My bank gave me a top up on a loan a few years ago and I never signed the facility letter, what does this mean in reality

    Also I think they have lost my documentation and have no copies of my mortgage and so on.

    Any ideas comments given that they seem to have thrown away the rule book

    Do they have details of the original offer letter? (pre topup)


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    #16
    kathy2
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭kathy2


    Hi

    I got more info off them and they do have some facility letters what a mess!! Nice dream while it lasted.


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    #17
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    Chipboard wrote: »
    Ahh, I don't want to hurt your feelings but your not a mod either.

    If someone discusses anything on boards which could be the subject of a court case (property, business, divorce, drugs, drunk driving) and someone gives their opinion, then according to your definition they are giving legal advice.

    I am not a solicitor so I am not purporting to give legal advice.

    You are correct its not straightforward. What is?

    I am giving the op a starting position with which to commence negotiations. She may end up at either end of the spectrum (pays it all back V pays none of it back) or somewhere in between depending on how good a negotiator she is.

    Its up to her whether she seeks legal advice - that will depend on the amount of the loan (because a solicitor will probably cost c€10 - €15k min) and how competent she feels at dealing with it herself.

    I think my advice was more useful to her than your advice. She thinks so too - ask her. Any tool can go out and pay a solicitor to lose a case for them and most solicitors operating outside of the major cities are useless when it comes to dealing with debt recovery issues. A good banking solicitor would cost more than it would be viable to pay (unless it was a substantial loan).

    Am i missing something here? Whats being a mod here got to do with it.

    We give opinions here. I dont agree with yours and you dont agree with mine. No problem there. The OP makes the decision at the end of the day.

    A solicitor costing €10-€15k are you joking? It will cost some for legal advice but a small percentage of what you are talking about. Most solicitors worth their salt would have this situation resolved without the courts.


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