The Increasingly Depressing Financial Crisis Thread

Seren_

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Fees to increase by €800.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1111/1224283093755.html

So I guess the rumour is true then - Dumbledore did die for nothing.

Oh my god, I'm just sick of this sh1t. The grant is most likely not going to cover the increase in registration fees (as there were doubts that it would even cover when it increased to €1500 a few years ago).

I know people are going to say at least it's not three thousand euro, but still any increase in fees makes it hard for people to continue in, or even get a chance to attend, higher education. There are a lot of students from socio-economically disadvantaged backgrounds e.g. students on the HEAR programme who will be totally cut off from going to college. I'm thinking about my own brothers in this situation like, at least I'm going to be finished college, they might not even get the chance to do that.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

randylonghorn wrote: »

Pretty predictable tbh.

Step 1: Leak a rumour about a huge increase (and the USI inadvertently helped them with that).

Step 2: Allow simmer for a couple of weeks, everybody screaming.

Step 3: Reassure everybody that while an increase is on the cards, it won't be *that* bad. Most people will go "Phew! Well, sure, it could have been worse!"

Result.

They do this at every budget, particularly with the price of fags and drink.

almostnever

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

They do this at every budget, particularly with the price of fags and drink.

It's weird, I remember three or four years ago when these were the most talked about things when it came to the Budget. Remember those days when social welfare went up each year? :pac:

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

almostnever wrote: »

It's weird, I remember three or four years ago when these were the most talked about things when it came to the Budget. Remember those days when social welfare went up each year? :pac:

Give-away budgets as they called them... Yeah they always increased the price tobacco and alcohol even when the money wasnt needed. Its a easy target, people would feel bad arguing for cheap cigarettes.

On the topic of the increase in registration fee, theres another protest on in Galway next thursday.

Pygmalion

On a semi-related note, results of referendum are in and DCU aren't rejoining USI \o/.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Going rouge with UL then?

EDIT: Just found out ye havn't been members since 2002. Didnt know that.

amacachi

Pygmalion wrote: »

On a semi-related note, results of referendum are in and DCU aren't rejoining USI \o/.

Hope you had a part to play in that. :P

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Going rouge with UL then?

Whatever about their views, they always look fabulous!

christina_x

kateos2 wrote: »

But it's not just us taking the hit. It everyone, it's public sector, private sector, people on benefits, everything is being cut everywhere. Yeah I'm not overly thrilled that it might be doubled, but I'd much prefer to have to pay €3,000 than lose my job and possibly house as has been happening to so many people.

What if your family has been affected by these cuts you mentioned. You say you are prepared to pay the 3000 because its not YOU paying it, its your parents. What if your parents simply cannot afford to pay this amount. The course you are in/are working for could be the perfect course for you, but you cant do it because it's not within your means. youd be heartbroken and you know it. Its extremely unfair to have money the determining factor for whether a person is able to achieve their goal.

christina_x

christina_x wrote: »

What if your family has been affected by these cuts you mentioned. You say you are prepared to pay the 3000 because its not YOU paying it, its your parents. What if your parents simply cannot afford to pay this amount. The course you are in/are working for could be the perfect course for you, but you cant do it because it's not within your means. youd be heartbroken and you know it. Its extremely unfair to have money the determining factor for whether a person is able to achieve their goal.

Then you are eligible for a grant.

amacachi

christina_x wrote: »

What if your family has been affected by these cuts you mentioned. You say you are prepared to pay the 3000 because its not YOU paying it, its your parents. What if your parents simply cannot afford to pay this amount. The course you are in/are working for could be the perfect course for you, but you cant do it because it's not within your means. youd be heartbroken and you know it. Its extremely unfair to have money the determining factor for whether a person is able to achieve their goal.

Unfortunately the SUs seem even more against full fees (easy position to maintain) which would be the fairest solution.

Lawliet

Deleted User wrote: »

Then you are eligible for a grant.

Not necessarily, they're already pretty stingy about giving the grant and it's probably going to get much worse next year. For instance I got refused the grant despite my parents income being under the level due to a particularly nasty loop hole. We only managed this year because of my mother's redundancy pay. If they double the registration fee and tighten up on the grant even more next year, then either myself or my older brother will have to drop out.
Now I realise mine might be an isolated case, but there are plenty of people who are just about eligible for the grant, or slightly above the income level who are going to be hit hard by this rise next year.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Lawliet wrote: »

Not necessarily, they're already pretty stingy about giving the grant and it's probably going to get much worse next year. For instance I got refused the grant despite my parents income being under the level due to a particularly nasty loop hole. We only managed this year because of my mother's redundancy pay. If they double the registration fee and tighten up on the grant even more next year, then either myself or my older brother will have to drop out.
Now I realise mine might be an isolated case, but there are plenty of people who are just about eligible for the grant, or slightly above the income level who are going to be hit hard by this rise next year.

Same would apply to a lot of people I know. Those just above the threshold for getting the grant are the worst hit by the cost of college.

amacachi

Lawliet wrote: »

Not necessarily, they're already pretty stingy about giving the grant and it's probably going to get much worse next year. For instance I got refused the grant despite my parents income being under the level due to a particularly nasty loop hole. We only managed this year because of my mother's redundancy pay. If they double the registration fee and tighten up on the grant even more next year, then either myself or my older brother will have to drop out.
Now I realise mine might be an isolated case, but there are plenty of people who are just about eligible for the grant, or slightly above the income level who are going to be hit hard by this rise next year.

Can I ask what the loophole was?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Same would apply to a lot of people I know. Those just above the threshold for getting the grant are the worst hit by the cost of college.

Aye, it's getting ridiculous for the low-earners now. Which again is why full fees are the fairest way to do it, everyone should pay for what they use.

Lawliet

Lawliet wrote: »

Not necessarily, they're already pretty stingy about giving the grant and it's probably going to get much worse next year. For instance I got refused the grant despite my parents income being under the level due to a particularly nasty loop hole. We only managed this year because of my mother's redundancy pay. If they double the registration fee and tighten up on the grant even more next year, then either myself or my older brother will have to drop out.
Now I realise mine might be an isolated case, but there are plenty of people who are just about eligible for the grant, or slightly above the income level who are going to be hit hard by this rise next year.

You're partially correct. The problem is that since they're doubling the "student services fee" they don't feel the need to increase the grant.

They need to bring in full fees, call them fees, and improve the grant system.

I just get annoyed with people campaigning against fees altogether. The real problem isn't with the fees themselves; those who can afford it should pay it.

Those just above any threshold will always be hit worst. That's the main issue with stepped progressive schemes. It applies to PAYE, for example.

Lawliet

amacachi wrote: »

Can I ask what the loophole was?

Change of circumstance doesn't apply if your parent is self employed, they have to declare bankruptcy before any decrease in earnings -even a major one- is taken into account.

amacachi

Lawliet wrote: »

Change of circumstance doesn't apply if your parent is self employed, they have to declare bankruptcy before any decrease in earnings -even a major one- is taken into account.

Really? :S That didn't apply to me. I was based on my dad's income the previous year but he quit during that year so I appealed for a change of circumstances and they gave the top up. That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

amacachi

Deleted User wrote: »

You're partially correct. The problem is that since they're doubling the "student services fee" they don't feel the need to increase the grant.

They need to bring in full fees, call them fees, and improve the grant system.

I just get annoyed with people campaigning against fees altogether. The real problem isn't with the fees themselves; those who can afford it should pay it.

Those just above any threshold will always be hit worst. That's the main issue with stepped progressive schemes. It applies to PAYE, for example.

It does and it doesn't, at least with PAYE it's only the income above the threshold which is affected. But if you take a family on dole with medical cards etc. it would take a gross income of close to 50k a year to match what they're getting, even before ya consider the savings when the kids are in college. It's completely wrong.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Lawliet wrote: »

Change of circumstance doesn't apply if your parent is self employed, they have to declare bankruptcy before any decrease in earnings -even a major one- is taken into account.

Self-employed people also have trouble receiving the dole if they are out of work. The system is really weighed against working for yourself.

**Timbuk2**

Not everyone gets a sufficient grant. I know some people who cannot afford to go to college in Dublin, but are not eligible for a grant (usually as both their parents work).

College is fine for the rich people, as they can afford it, and the people that don't have a lot of money get grants and other financial support, but it's the people in the middle that get hit hardest, in my opinion.

It doesn't help that I am a twin and that all the college expenses in our household are doubled (we both go to college in Dublin, both have different accommodations, have to pay reg. fees, transport costs, etc.).

Pygmalion

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Not everyone gets a sufficient grant. I know some people who cannot afford to go to college in Dublin, but are not eligible for a grant (usually as both their parents work).

College is fine for the rich people, as they can afford it, and the people that don't have a lot of money get grants and other financial support, but it's the people in the middle that get hit hardest, in my opinion.

It doesn't help that I am a twin and that all the college expenses in our household are doubled (we both go to college in Dublin, both have different accommodations, have to pay reg. fees, transport costs, etc.).

IMO (and it's a very biased opinion) people from outside the cities are pretty ****ed.

I know tons of people who qualify for grants and just live with their parents in Dublin all year long just as they did in secondary school, but now get a couple of grand a year.
Then you have people from the country who have to move up to the city, also being given a grant, but which in a lot of cases isn't even enough to pay their rent.

I'm fairly lucky in that I qualify for subsidised accomodation as well as a maintenance grant, but the grant doesn't even cover the year's rent, even when you take off the 50% that the government pays.

Pigwidgeon

christina_x wrote: »

What if your family has been affected by these cuts you mentioned. You say you are prepared to pay the 3000 because its not YOU paying it, its your parents. What if your parents simply cannot afford to pay this amount. The course you are in/are working for could be the perfect course for you, but you cant do it because it's not within your means. youd be heartbroken and you know it. Its extremely unfair to have money the determining factor for whether a person is able to achieve their goal.

They can't, I get the grant, and that still isn't enough. I work 3 jobs to get by in college. I've worked four days this week as well as going to college four days. I'll be working another 3 days next week too. So, believe me, I know what it's like to not be able to afford college.

Edit: Also, my mum is self employed, and within the top-up level of the grant system, but because she is not in receipt of social welfare, and if business gets worse, she still won't be able to get any, so I don't qualify for the top-up rate. So, in my case, I do whatever the fúck I can to stay in college, and contribute to helping my Mum out with money.

A graduate loan system would be a fair option but it won't raise money in the short term. Unfortunately everybody in the country will get affected by the next budget and students are no exception.

Personally, I'm screwed if I can't get work, but I don't think fees are unfair.

Aoibheann

christina_x wrote: »

What if your family has been affected by these cuts you mentioned. You say you are prepared to pay the 3000 because its not YOU paying it, its your parents. What if your parents simply cannot afford to pay this amount. The course you are in/are working for could be the perfect course for you, but you cant do it because it's not within your means. youd be heartbroken and you know it. Its extremely unfair to have money the determining factor for whether a person is able to achieve their goal.

I can't speak for Kate in this - although I will say that from what I know, she is working her way through college so I think your argument that she isn't paying is a bit unfair.

Speaking for myself now: my parents don't pay for anything for me, I pay for myself. Sure, this year, I'm eligible for a grant based on my parents income. But I might not be next year - yet I pay for everything myself. That's also unfair, because my eligibility for a grant isn't assessed on my own means - which is really what I'm living on. So what if I can't afford to pay this new amount? I'll make damn sure that I do. I'll find a job. I'll give grinds. I'll look for any possible scholarship known to man. Hell, I'm sitting ridiculously hard exams this January in the hopes that, if I get them, I won't have to worry about these things. I'm cutting Christmas, my birthday, my social life, seeing my boyfriend, my friends, my life in general to try to get what I need in these exams. But it might not be enough. If it's not, like I said - I'll find something to get me through.

I'm stubborn enough to think there's a way around everything. And you know what? That's exactly what'll get me through the next few years. I don't have a lot of money - hell, I'm struggling this year even with the grant and I barely have enough to survive on a week to week basis.. But I make do.

I think too many of us got used to a life of comfort, if not luxury (and I hate when people say that, so please excuse me for saying it!). Things have changed, and we all need to adapt!

Lawliet wrote: »

Not necessarily, they're already pretty stingy about giving the grant and it's probably going to get much worse next year. For instance I got refused the grant despite my parents income being under the level due to a particularly nasty loop hole.

If you have problems like this in the future, I honestly couldn't recommend contacting your TD more. Seriously, mine was so helpful and my grant application (including receiving the cheque at college) got turned around in a matter of weeks. Another reason I recommend being registered to vote!

Pygmalion wrote: »

IMO (and it's a very biased opinion) people from outside the cities are pretty ****ed.

I know tons of people who qualify for grants and just live with their parents in Dublin all year long just as they did in secondary school, but now get a couple of grand a year.
Then you have people from the country who have to move up to the city, being given the exact same grant, which in a lot of cases isn't even enough to pay their rent.

I completely agree (apart from the existence of adjacent rates for those within a certain distance of the college). My grant pretty much exactly covers my rent, and nothing else.

I think there needs to be a huge overhaul of the grants system, but I just don't see it happening.. Although the hopefully incoming Student Support Bill could prove me wrong!

amacachi

Pygmalion wrote: »

IMO (and it's a very biased opinion) people from outside the cities are pretty ****ed.

I know tons of people who qualify for grants and just live with their parents in Dublin all year long just as they did in secondary school, but now get a couple of grand a year.
Then you have people from the country who have to move up to the city, being given the exact same grant, which in a lot of cases isn't even enough to pay their rent.

I'm fairly lucky in that I qualify for subsidised accomodation as well as a maintenance grant, but the grant doesn't even cover the year's rent, even when you take off the 50% that the government pays.

If they're living far enough away that commuting would be inconvenient the grant is at about twice the adjacent rate. Have to say the people I definitely don't feel sorry for are the people who live closer to college than me yet have a room in the city. :P

Deleted User wrote: »

A graduate loan system would be a fair option but it won't raise money in the short term. Unfortunately everybody in the country will get affected by the next budget and students are no exception.

Personally, I'm screwed if I can't get work, but I don't think fees are unfair.

If the government cared about the country it could've made a HUGE difference over the last 3 or 4 years. If they'd gotten in earlier with the banks and provided the funding til now through the banks that would've been a massive recapitalisation with some benefits and safe returns and by now they could've just left the banks to give the loans themselves for now. I hate to derail everything but it really does all come back to the banks.
If they would let a foreign bank come in then graduate loans would work fine, but our banks can't back it. I'm against a flat-ish graduate tax, everyone should pay the same for their course and not get punished for being successful later on.

Grindylow

Aoibheann wrote: »

I think there needs to be a huge overhaul of the grants system, but I just don't see it happening.. Although the hopefully incoming Student Support Bill could prove me wrong!

Student support bill?

almostnever

The grant system is a joke. I'm STILL waiting for confirmation about mine, and when I do get it I've to jump through a few more hoops before I get the cheque...and then wait five days before I can cash it. It's beyond ridiculous.

Grindylow

almostnever wrote: »

The grant system is a joke. I'm STILL waiting for confirmation about mine, and when I do get it I've to jump through a few more hoops before I get the cheque...and then wait five days before I can cash it. It's beyond ridiculous.

Really? How come it's taking so long? I think my brother got his last month

Pigwidgeon

almostnever wrote: »

The grant system is a joke. I'm STILL waiting for confirmation about mine, and when I do get it I've to jump through a few more hoops before I get the cheque...and then wait five days before I can cash it. It's beyond ridiculous.

Just as an aside, there's some form of system in place that you can get it cashed then and there. Although, this could just be some UCD/AIB on campus/Grant arrangement, as I've only ever done it in the bank on campus, and have had to show my student card. I've had that done for 3 out of the 4 cheques I've gotten this year and last year. I'd assume Trinity might have something similar in place?

Noel: It varies from council to council. I got mine in November last year, while my friend didn't get confirmation she was receiving the grant until she was finished college for the summer. That was within one county council, so over them all it's ridiculous how much the difference is.

Pygmalion

almostnever wrote: »

and then wait five days before I can cash it. It's beyond ridiculous.

Protip: Bring it to the bank as soon as you get it anyway, there probably won't be a problem, and if there is just come back in a few days.
I've managed to get my grant within 1-2 working days each time last year.

almostnever

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Really? How come it's taking so long? I think my brother got his last month

Because one person processes the Louth applications from 9am-11am daily. There's the definition of ridiculous right there...

kateos2 wrote: »

Just as an aside, there's some form of system in place that you can get it cashed then and there. Although, this could just be some UCD/AIB on campus/Grant arrangement, as I've only ever done it in the bank on campus, and have had to show my student card. I've had that done for 3 out of the 4 cheques I've gotten this year and last year. I'd assume Trinity might have something similar in place?

Noel: It varies from council to council. I got mine in November last year, while my friend didn't get confirmation she was receiving the grant until she was finished college for the summer.

That's interesting, I might email my tutor and see if we have a provision like that. The second I get the cheque I want the money. I need the money, more like