The Increasingly Depressing Financial Crisis Thread

**Timbuk2**

I've heard of people making plans to get drunk before this march and have 'great craic' when they go.

Words fail me sometimes!

Pigwidgeon

kev9100 wrote: »

Thats a bit of a generalisation. Yes, some who are going on the march aren't the best examples of students and yes, there will be some like me who are just going for the craic, but I know a lot of people who are going because they think its the right thing to do.

I didn't generalise. If you read my post, I said "the majority of the people I know who are going". Of course there will be people there who are going for the right reasons.

bythewoods

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I've heard of people making plans to get drunk before this march and have 'great craic' when they go.

Words fail me sometimes!

Well, the protest'll make no difference. Really. May as well have a bit'a banter like...

Were you searching for the words "banter merchant"?

kev9100

kateos2 wrote: »

I didn't generalise. If you read my post, I said "the majority of the people I know who are going". Of course there will be people there who are going for the right reasons.

Sorry, misread your post. Long day...

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I've heard of people making plans to get drunk before this march and have 'great craic' when they go.

Words fail me sometimes!

What actually is so wrong with that? So long as they don't start fights or any of that, I don't mind.

unknown13

I am on a mobile device, so I can't multi - quote.


@KnifeWrench: I accept your points but if the government see 15 thousand students marching down O' Connell street, they MAY think twice about doing anything to the college fees. After all it is 15 thousand young people with the majority who have voted in one or less election.

@MavisDavis: If you are paying about 10 thousand before you start next year. I dont think you will be telling the class reps to STFU.

DingosAteMyBaby

I'm not going to the protest on Wednesday, I can't really afford to miss more college. However I completely support everyone going up there to march! I'm already in quite a bit of debt from paying my fee's and the thought of them doubling next year honestly makes me panic. I work all the time now as it is and I really don't know how I'd be able to afford to pay them if they increased by that much:(


And the attitude of "Why bother, it won't make a difference" is so ridiculous it made me laugh. Clearly missing the whole concept of protests:P Imagine if everyone had that attitude, the world would be even more fcuked up than it now:rolleyes:

Grindylow

DingosAteMyBaby wrote: »

=I'm already in quite a bit of debt from paying my fee's and the thought of them doubling next year honestly makes me panic. I work all the time now as it is and I really don't know how I'd be able to afford to pay them if they increased by that much:(

I'm confused though. If they double the reg fee from 1500 to 3000, won't they have to increase the grant payments? Like 1500 dissapearing from a students money during the year would be an incredible loss, especially if living away from home! I just don't see how it'll work like? If anyone cares to explain it to me, please do!

QueenOfLeon

Noel2k9 wrote: »

I'm confused though. If they double the reg fee from 1500 to 3000, won't they have to increase the grant payments? Like 1500 dissapearing from a students money during the year would be an incredible loss, especially if living away from home! I just don't see how it'll work like? If anyone cares to explain it to me, please do!

Well, most layers of the grant already pay the reg fee for you, along with the extra money you get. But they may also lower the income levels, and cut the amount that you're getting.

Grindylow

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Well, most layers of the grant already pay the reg fee for you, along with the extra money you get. But they may also lower the income levels, and cut the amount that you're getting.

Oh yeah I forgot about that! But won't that just cause more of a loss for the government? Like I'm only guessing but wouldn't a high proportion of students in third level education be receiving a grant like?

bythewoods

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Oh yeah I forgot about that! But won't that just cause more of a loss for the government? Like I'm only guessing but wouldn't a high proportion of students in third level education be receiving a grant like?

Hmmm. No.

Our class reps were saying 1/2 or a 1/3 of Trinity students get them. Dunno about that really.
They were talking about it before a lecture... and it was early, so I probably hadn't woken up properly yet.

A lot of people are eligible for like, 1/4 grants and stuff, not the full whack.

Grindylow

bythewoods wrote: »

Hmmm. No.

Our class reps were saying 1/2 or a 1/3 of Trinity students get them. Dunno about that really.
They were talking about it before a lecture... and it was early, so I probably hadn't woken up properly yet.

A lot of people are eligible for like, 1/4 grants and stuff, not the full whack.

I know yeah.. but those still pay for the fees, right?
So that'll double the amount the government are paying out on fees indefinitely like?

almostnever

Noel2k9 wrote: »

That is entirely true! I'm from the South-East but I've been on a waiting list for a brain scan since October last year.. Just over a year ago actually! Still haven't heard a thing back from it despite continuous visits to my GP due to increasing pain! It's gone to a stage where I can't even concentrate due to pain anymore! Raaargh at this country!

It's the same everywhere though. My sister has been waiting the guts of two years for a bloody eye appointment. An eye appointment. It's ridiculous.

Jay P wrote: »

I'm not going because I don't want to get in a bus that will take ~4 hours to get to Dublin, and then another ~4 hours to get home. I also don't really feel like being part of something that will probably not make any difference. And on the off-chance that this march will make a difference, its success won't be resting on my attendance.

And what is surely going to be a very unpopular opinion, I'm in favour of college fees, just not in the form of a €3,000 "registration" fee. A system similar to the one in the UK would be perfect, where you pay after you graduate. Having free 3rd level education is completely unfeasible when the entire country is totally broke and when the colleges themselves are really struggling, financially.

Exactly, I was shocked when I found out that DKIT were organising a few buses even, UCC is miles away!

And I'm also in favour of the fees in such a system. For a number of reasons, although I have been told that this means that my parents can obviously fund my education and I have nothing to worry about so I should stop ruining it for everyone. :rolleyes: Said by the same girl who said I'm clearly loaded because I pay 50 euro a week for my Dundalk-Dublin bus ticket. I don't think she realised that I can't afford to live in Dublin, although it was pointed out to her...

unknown13 wrote: »

@MavisDavis: If you are paying about 10 thousand before you start next year. I dont think you will be telling the class reps to STFU.

I find this frustrating. One minute it's "they're doubling the registration fee!" and then it's "fees for everyone next year lads, we're all fúcked."

Chuchoter

DingosAteMyBaby wrote: »

I'm not going to the protest on Wednesday, I can't really afford to miss more college. However I completely support everyone going up there to march! I'm already in quite a bit of debt from paying my fee's and the thought of them doubling next year honestly makes me panic. I work all the time now as it is and I really don't know how I'd be able to afford to pay them if they increased by that much:(


And the attitude of "Why bother, it won't make a difference" is so ridiculous it made me laugh. Clearly missing the whole concept of protests:P Imagine if everyone had that attitude, the world would be even more fcuked up than it now:rolleyes:

I would also love to go but I'm in school. Seems a bit ridiculous to have on a wednesday...a weekend would have made 10 times more sense.

QueenOfLeon

crayolastereo wrote: »

I would also love to go but I'm in school. Seems a bit ridiculous to have on a wednesday...a weekend would have made 10 times more sense.

The TD's are in the Dáil on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, think thats the reasoning for it.

jumpguy

If students really wanna make a difference and have a voice, they should make sure they register to vote and vote... That's how you'll increase the student's voice. D'you think anyone will care cause there's a few thousand students down O'Connell Street, when only 100 of them or so will vote?

As I said before, I reckon the student's budget cut will be minimal in comparison to other cuts.

Ginja Ninja

I'm going to go and march.Why?Not for some over-arching philosophy of whether it's right or not to change the fee situation,but because If the registration fee doubles[probably won't but a raise is the same effect realistically] I doubt I'll be in college next year.I want to make something of myself with a degree and I'll take an afternoon off to prove that point,it's not going to ruin my week or anything.

I actually don't like the slogan for the campaign[not dissing the campaign,just the delivery] "education not emmigration" confuses a whole lot of people and focuses on one effect of the fees too much.

amacachi

jumpguy wrote: »

If students really wanna make a difference and have a voice, they should make sure they register to vote and vote... That's how you'll increase the student's voice.

As I said before, I reckon the student's budget cut will be minimal in comparison to other cuts.

I do vote, but I'm not a centrist/populist so there's no party that makes me really want to vote for them. I'm also not a socialist despite what my beard may suggest. :pac:

The trouble is that almost all of the changes to education will be aimed at the students and not at the institutions and workers IMO. But that's what happens when ya have as much interference in education as we have in this country.

almostnever

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

I actually don't like the slogan for the campaign[not dissing the campaign,just the delivery] "education not emmigration" confuses a whole lot of people and focuses on one effect of the fees too much.

Not to mention the fact that it's flawed logic.

So, the increase in fees means less people get an education, which means more people emigrate....hmmm. Didn't realise America, Canada, Australia etc are allowing so many unskilled and unqualified immigrants into their country every year. :rolleyes:

And anyway, what has any of it got to do with what the job prospects here are? Makes none of the sense.

Edit: and I get this whole thing about the multi national companies not wanting to come here if the work force is unskilled and all that, but we're basically the only country with free fees in fairness.

amacachi

almostnever wrote: »

So, the increase in fees means less people get an education, which means more people emigrate....hmmm. Didn't realise America, Canada, Australia etc are allowing so many unskilled and unqualified immigrants into their country every year. :rolleyes:

Think about it, it'd be far easier to find work over there by leaving behind your network of friends and family than it is to find work here with those connections.

jumpguy

amacachi wrote: »

The trouble is that almost all of the changes to education will be aimed at the students and not at the institutions and workers IMO. But that's what happens when ya have as much interference in education as we have in this country.

That's true, but for instituitions to attract the best lecturers and stuff they need offer good salaries. There's only so many inefficiencies they can cut.

As for the emigration argument, lolz really? Nearly every other country is more expensive/around the same cost to go to college in, and don't offer free tuition fees. 3rd level education is relatively cheap in Ireland thanks to free fees and generous grants. The biggest worry about emigration is if you emigrate AFTER you graduate, when the Irish state has spent thousands educating you.

Once again, I'm not for cuts to education at all at all, sure I hope to be going to college myself next year, just pointing these things out.

amacachi

jumpguy wrote: »

That's true, but for instituitions to attract the best lecturers and stuff they need offer good salaries. There's only so many inefficiencies they can cut.

True, but when the pay is inflated by the ITs it has a knock-on effect on the Universities as well, further pushing up costs. The main cuts I'm talking about isn't lecturing though, and I fancy the office staff would be easier to cut if they weren't being paid by the government.

As for the emigration argument, lolz really? Nearly every other country is more expensive/around the same cost to go to college in, and don't offer free tuition fees. 3rd level education is relatively cheap in Ireland thanks to free fees and generous grants. The biggest worry about emigration is if you emigrate AFTER you graduate, when the Irish state has spent thousands educating you.

I love the emigration argument too, and the irony that the people who employ it tend to seem like the kind who would've ****ed off to Australia or the US for a while during the better times for a while, which is all they'd manage at the moment anyway.

Once again, I'm not for cuts to education at all at all, sure I hope to be going to college myself next year, just pointing these things out.

Just out of interest, if it was all payable after the course had finished and you were working would you object to fees? I'm not targetting this at you but people need to look at how much the government is taking in and how much it's spending, and how much of that is on wages. Massive cuts are needed, and they're needed because all the free fees over the last 6/7 years were paid for by a bubble, meaning they basically weren't paid.

QueenOfLeon

jumpguy wrote: »

If students really wanna make a difference and have a voice, they should make sure they register to vote and vote... That's how you'll increase the student's voice. D'you think anyone will care cause there's a few thousand students down O'Connell Street, when only 100 of them or so will vote?

As I said before, I reckon the student's budget cut will be minimal in comparison to other cuts.

When they put an election on a Thursday, no ones going to travel a few hours home just to vote unfortunately.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

sock puppet

amacachi wrote: »

Just out of interest, if it was all payable after the course had finished and you were working would you object to fees? I'm not targetting this at you but people need to look at how much the government is taking in and how much it's spending, and how much of that is on wages. Massive cuts are needed, and they're needed because all the free fees over the last 6/7 years were paid for by a bubble, meaning they basically weren't paid.

The problem with that is the money is needed now. An increase in the registration fee seems like the best short-term solution.

amacachi

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Shh, you're making it seem like people are just making up excuses!

sock puppet wrote: »

The problem with that is the money is needed now. An increase in the registration fee seems like the best short-term solution.

Well firstly I don't think they need it right now as much as they claim, if they made specific and definite steps to cutting the deficit it would most likely get everyone off the state's case.
Secondly I didn't say it'd be paying back the state. Our banks are broke but if we got foreign banks to provide the loans. Also, rather than funnel money into the banks for no benefit the state could've spent the last two years capitalising the banks to provide loans for fees, would've got a big flood of cash through the banks and the state would've got the money back in a few years. But hey, too late for that now. :pac:

jumpguy

amacachi wrote: »

Just out of interest, if it was all payable after the course had finished and you were working would you object to fees? I'm not targetting this at you but people need to look at how much the government is taking in and how much it's spending, and how much of that is on wages. Massive cuts are needed, and they're needed because all the free fees over the last 6/7 years were paid for by a bubble, meaning they basically weren't paid.

In all honesty, not really no. That's partly because I don't really tend to worry about things that won't affect me for a while (you could call that a good or bad thing :pac:) and also because I hope to go into a profession with fairly secure job prospects (medicine). Also, if I decide to emigrate, either temporarily or permanently, I won't have to feel guilty that I ripped my home country off by fecking off to somewhere else after I graduate. I'd have paid for my own education.

Make no judgements here, I'm from a middle-class family hit by the recession hard enough. My parents wouldn't be able to afford to send me to college if they had to pay tuition fees straight-up. However, that system would be non-sensical given the alternatives. The pay-when-you-graduate-and-start-working system would be the best.

I know this sounds cruel and pompous, but I think savings could be made in universities by cutting courses that have very poor job prospects. I know there'd be the complaints that "ohh everyone is entitled to their education in whatever their interested in, just cause you're not interested in it, bla bla bla" and all that, but being realistic here, there's not much point in it. Also, if we're gonne bring in a pay-fees-after-you-graduate system, then people graduating and not getting jobs to pay the fees will end up being a huge toll on the system...

amacachi

jumpguy wrote: »

I know this sounds cruel and pompous, but I think savings could be made in universities by cutting courses that have very poor job prospects. I know there'd be the complaints that "ohh everyone is entitled to their education in whatever their interested in, just cause you're not interested in it, bla bla bla" and all that, but being realistic here, there's not much point in it. Also, if we're gonne bring in a pay-fees-after-you-graduate system, then people graduating and not getting jobs to pay the fees will end up being a huge toll on the system...

Again, it comes back to my point about where the universities get funded. DKIT recently acquired a new building and put classrooms with touch-screen boards etc. and are using at least part of it for music. Meanwhile as a friend of a friend who's doing electronic engineering said, "They get all this fancy equipment and we're told 'don't go into the labs on your own because if you do it might be a while before anyone finds you.'" :pac:

Fad

I am somewhat pro-fees. Vaguely considering going to the march because I dont think that the reg fee really shouldn't be upped. In UCD for example, a good chunk of the reg fee (At the moment) is not properly accounted for, a tiny fraction goes to the SU, another bit goes to admin, and the rest seems to go into a black hole. I would be happier if they, seperate them into reg & tuition fees, and make it clearer where money goes, this whole refusing to call the reg fee, a fee bothers me.

Secondly, for years and years, colleges wanted to introduce fees to make the colleges better, which, to be fair, sounds like a decent idea. Now people are using the same statement to justify fees, when in reality, fees are just being used to plug a budget hole.

I really dont see how fees are the worst thing in the world, I just dont want it to come too harshly on my parents. If a loan system existed in Ireland (Student loans here aren't good enough at the moment) I would happily take out a loan, and pay it back gradually once I get out of college.

I dont know... For the moment, I'm pro-fees if they can provide an infrastructure to students so we can actually pay the fees, and we are promised there will be no more cuts in terms of college facilities (Like library opening hours and what not). But, unless there is some changes like that, I'm against them.



Primarily not going to the march because I have a Japanese class on Wednesday that attendance is worth marks in. That and I want USI to fúcking implode.

Pygmalion

Fad wrote: »

That and I want USI to fúcking implode.

To be fair we're not even part of USI (though there'll be a referendum soon on whether we should rejoin) and our SU is organising transport to the march and encouraging us to attend (through annoying CAPS LOCK EMAILS :mad:), so I wouldn't really call it a USI thing.

Fad

Pygmalion wrote: »

To be fair we're not even part of USI (though there'll be a referendum soon on whether we should rejoin) and our SU is organising transport to the march and encouraging us to attend (through annoying CAPS LOCK EMAILS :mad:), so I wouldn't really call it a USI thing.

I've heard USI mentioned an awful lot in college lately, and the tshirts that the SU are selling for the protest (They act as a ticket for the buses to the protest too) have USI's logo on them, etcetc.