The Increasingly Depressing Financial Crisis Thread

sock puppet

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Oh, so they pretty much just like to stir shiit in stuff?

Well to be fair not all of them. But even those who were protesting peacefully weren't just protesting against fees. They were protesting against the government. They weren't the only ones either. Labour and Sinn Fein supporters were carrying anti-Fianna Fail banners around.

edit:

kev9100 wrote: »

In fairness, one can be a socialist and not be an extremist or far-left. The Labour Party would probably describe themselves as democratic socialists.

True they probably would. But they seem to be more of a left wing party than an actual socialist party to me. I meant people who followed Trotsky and the like

amacachi

Sure didn't Bertie claim to be a socialist? The Irish Labour Party are Socialist in name only, they're as centrist as FF or FG.

Pigwidgeon

There's some pretty good photos in this thread on the photography forum if anyone is interested.

QueenOfLeon

Gah, it annoys me that it got violent, although, from what I saw, it was only a very small part of the day. The march went pretty well, and you'd nearly begin to hope that students would get a good name for doing something maturely. But of course theres going to be those that will ruin it.

I was on the street for a while where the mounted guards were, thats where most of the drunkest and rowdiest people that I saw were...and they threw things at the horses, and pushed them, it was so horrible

randylonghorn

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Like Fianna Fail and stuff? Or something totally different?

bythewoods wrote: »

Fianna Fail- centre left. Defo not like socialists.

I'm sorry, but FF are not centre-left. They have occasionally sought to portray themselves as such, when it suited their agenda, but they are if anything veering to the right of centre.

Even Labour aren't much to the left of centre.

illiop wrote: »

From piecing together what I've seen from RTÉ, the paper, boards and facebook it seems like there is a lot of exageration on both sides.

I suspect you're right.

illiop wrote: »

The media in general seems to be portraying the students as rowdy time-wasters with a violent faction, while students (most of whom admit to not having seen anything personally) are trying to play the victims.

I wasn't there, so my view is relatively uninformed as well, but it seems to have been mainly a case of the thing being hi-jacked by those of a particular political view and agenda, probably with some of the sillier students going along with it "for the craic".

Such carry-on gives hostages to fortune, with fortune in this case being personified by the media and the government, and it's one of the reasons why I would be less than enthusiastic about the efficacy of mass student protests.

The media will never write a story about how the vast majority of students behaved appropriately when they can instead do reports on "rowdy time-wasters with a violent faction" and drop loaded words like "riot" into the middle of it.

Grindylow

Laaaaaaawds I got invited to "protest" on 5 December [I think] on Facebook ('cos i'm tuf 2kaii10).

But like WHYYYYYYYY?
The budget will be out then? Why another silly protest? :P

kev9100

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Laaaaaaawds I got invited to "protest" on 5 December [I think] on Facebook ('cos i'm tuf 2kaii10).

But like WHYYYYYYYY?
The budget will be out then? Why another silly protest? :P

Isn't the budget the 7th?

Either way, there's going to be a lot more protests for the forseeable future.

sock puppet

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Laaaaaaawds I got invited to "protest" on 5 December [I think] on Facebook ('cos i'm tuf 2kaii10).

But like WHYYYYYYYY?
The budget will be out then? Why another silly protest? :P

The budget is usually the first Wednesday of December so the budget should be out by then. However Wednesday is when it's presented to the Dail so I don't know when it's actually voted on. Could be that night. There's huge speculation it won't actually pass though.

Even if it does pass I don't think there's any guarentee it will come into effect because if the government falls before the finance bill (finished within 6-8 weeks or so of the budget) then whoever comes into power could decide to introduce their own budget.


edit: actually the budget is indeed the 7th this year.

Jackobyte

I don't know whether this has been posted before but I know some people were saying that the gardaí wouldn't have hit anyone without reason but I just came across this.

Look at 3.49 onwards until about 4. Also, at 3 minutes, the guard just dumps an unconscious person on the street. They don't bother seeing is they are alright.

Grindylow

sock puppet wrote: »

The budget is usually the first Wednesday of December so the budget should be out by then. However Wednesday is when it's presented to the Dail so I don't know when it's actually voted on. Could be that night. There's huge speculation it won't actually pass though.

Even if it does pass I don't think there's any guarentee it will come into effect because if the government falls before the finance bill (finished within 6-8 weeks or so of the budget) then whoever comes into power could decide to introduce their own budget.


edit: actually the budget is indeed the 7th this year.

The government can choose not to pass a budget?

The government can get changed without an election?

Sorry I'm a noob to all this. I only know some stuffs 'cos of Economics!

Insect Overlord

If the proposed budget fails to be passed (i.e. from having more votes against it than in its favour) then it would be an enormous vote against the confidence in the current government. It would also show that their majority vote has been lost. Essentially they'd have no option but to call an election in that scenario.

Grindylow

Insect Overlord wrote: »

If the proposed budget fails to be passed (i.e. from having more votes against it than in its favour) then it would be an enormous vote against the confidence in the current government. It would also show that their majority vote has been lost. Essentially they'd have no option but to call an election in that scenario.

Oooh! So then the new budget wouldn't be out until like January? Hmm I get that. So if that happened FF wouldn't be in power anymore, yeah?

sock puppet

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Oooh! So then the new budget wouldn't be out until like January? Hmm I get that. So if that happened FF wouldn't be in power anymore, yeah?

Yep if the budget fails then an election will be called and FF will almost certainly be replaced by a Fine Gael Labour coalition. In that case yeah there'd probably be a new budget around January or so after the new government forms.

However there is a by election to come now and talk of going to court to force the other two. So even if the budget passes there's no guarentee the finance act will.

Grindylow

sock puppet wrote: »

Yep if the budget fails then an election will be called and FF will almost certainly be replaced by a Fine Gael Labour coalition. In that case yeah there'd probably be a new budget around January or so after the new government forms.

However there is a by election to come now and talk of going to court to force the other two. So even if the budget passes there's no guarentee the finance act will.

Ooh! Are FG/Labour supposed to have a better technique for getting us outta this recession or something? :P

sock puppet

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Ooh! Are FG/Labour supposed to have a better technique for getting us outta this recession or something? :P

"Jobs":rolleyes:

Fine Gael plan to use money from the Pension Reserve Fund to stimulate the economy. An idea that sounds ****ing retarded to me. The point of the fund is to provide for the cost of pensions in the future. It's already been used for some of the bank bailouts.

kev9100

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Ooh! Are FG/Labour supposed to have a better technique for getting us outta this recession or something? :P

Who knows? I'm a lefty, so I would prefer to see a Labour majority government but that will almost certainly not happen.

unknown13

So FG propose to get rid of the Senate. Good idea, can anyone name 5 senators.

Jackobyte

unknown13 wrote: »

So FG propose to get rid of the Senate. Good idea, can anyone name 5 senators.

David Norris and Dan Boyle are the only two I know. Oh, and Ivor Callely

unknown13

We only went through The Senate recently in one of my lectures. IMO, the Senate is the biggest waste of money in Ireland.

randylonghorn

Wouldn't that be the Dáil? :pac:

I think the Seanad needs reform, not sure I'd go for outright abolition.

The Seanad has often picked up loopholes with legislation which have been overlooked in the rush to get them through the Dáil under the party whip; it's often a venue where issues get raised and get sensible consideration which would be shouted down in the Dáíl, and it has occasionally instigated some good legislation.

The theory behind it is quite sound, but unfortunately it has for the most part degenerated into a retirement home for failed politicians, or a training ground for young ones ... the exceptions often being the senators elected by the Universities, who are usually the most active senators and the best-known names (currently Shane Ross, David Norris, joe O'Toole, Ivana Bacik and a sixth whose name escapes me).

Originally, the other senators were to represent the following interests:

Administrative Panel: Public administration and social services (including the voluntary sector)
[Should become Community and Voluntary sector panel.]

Agricultural Panel: Agriculture and fisheries.

Cultural and Educational Panel: Education, the arts, the Irish language and Irish culture and literature.

Industrial and Commercial Panel: Industry and commerce (including engineering and architecture).

Labour Panel: Labour (organised or otherwise).

As said, this doesn't really work because of the means of election.


I would suggest that one possible approach would be to find a method of electing or nominating representatives of these sectors so that they actually do represent them and have an expertise in the area (say 3 each = 15)

Reduce number of TCD and NUI senators to 2 each, and add 3 to be elected from graduates of the non-university third level sector (7)

2 representatives from NI (2)

2 *retired* members of the judiciary, preferably justices of the Supreme Court or the High Court, to be elected or nominated by the judiciary (2)

10 members to be elected directly by the people of Ireland at the time of a general election, treating the whole of Ireland as one constituency (10)

4 to be nominated by the Dáil, not just the Taoiseach (4)

Should be a total of 40, if I have done my maths right, which is a cut in numbers (and therefore in costs) of one third.

Should also mean an enhanced voice for the sectors it is meant to give a voice to; that it is also more directly representative of the people; that it has inbuilt legal expertise to assist with its role as an advisory and revising body for legislation; and, in general, that it becomes less caught up in party politics.

amacachi

Unfortunately the Senate seems to just be somewhere to put people who couldn't get elected as TDs to save their blushes, and kinda helps the arguments that it's just part of the gravy train.

If I believed in any kind of religion I'd be praying right now that the budget passes, people need to realise that if we don't cut the deficit by at least what the government is saying we will literally run out of money by April and the EU will rape us, arguably deservedly.
But hey, let's just give a big "**** you" to the government, that'll help!

UpTheSlashers

What date is the budget being announced this year.

unknown13

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

What date is the budget being announced this year.

Pretty sure the 8th of December.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

amacachi wrote: »

It's not just the West, and I'm sick of hearing about how hard-up the West is.

People keep saying it because its true the west has always got the short end of the stick. Some of our politicians have a tendency to exaggerate this of course.

amacachi

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

People keep saying it because its true the west has always got the short end of the stick. Some of our politicians have a tendency to exaggerate this of course.

Unless it's only people I know who get ****ty treatment then I'd be fairly sure that it's worse here than our politicians admit. Of course Dermot Ahern topped the last poll here so ya get what ya vote for. Also if you look at social transfers from county to county you'd see that there's a huge flow of money from the East and the South to the West through the state, Louth also gets some but not on the same scale. I'm not sure what people expect.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

amacachi wrote: »

Unless it's only people I know who get ****ty treatment then I'd be fairly sure that it's worse here than our politicians admit. Of course Dermot Ahern topped the last poll here so ya get what ya vote for. Also if you look at social transfers from county to county you'd see that there's a huge flow of money from the East and the South to the West through the state, Louth also gets some but not on the same scale. I'm not sure what people expect.

Louth definitely seems to be getting poor treatment when it comes to health- I don't know how many times I've heard of something bad about that hospital in Drogheda.

amacachi

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Louth definitely seems to be getting poor treatment when it comes to health- I don't know how many times I've heard of something bad about that hospital in Drogheda.

Also bear in mind we were told bits and pieces were being shut down in Dundalk so that Navan and Drogheda could be improved, since then Navan has been downgraded and Drogheda couldn't cope before the hospital in Dundalk was raped, so it should be a laugh this winter if they get the vomiting bug like they usually do. Always fun for people getting yo-yoed from Drogheda to Dublin as well.
Funniest thing is there were plans on the drawing board for a private hospital a few years ago, now the government doesn't even think there's need in this town for one at all.

**Timbuk2**

Fees to increase by €800.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1111/1224283093755.html

So I guess the rumour is true then - Dumbledore did die for nothing.

randylonghorn

Pretty predictable tbh.

Step 1: Leak a rumour about a huge increase (and the USI inadvertently helped them with that).

Step 2: Allow simmer for a couple of weeks, everybody screaming.

Step 3: Reassure everybody that while an increase is on the cards, it won't be *that* bad. Most people will go "Phew! Well, sure, it could have been worse!"

Result.

almostnever

The USI make me so, so angry. This was one of the most predictable things EVER and I swear if I hear the SU next week blabbing about how much of a success the march was because of how the increase was "less than expected" or whatever, I'll scream.

/vaguelyirrationalanger