Bank of Ireland moves from Laser to Visa Debit

Sephiroth_dude

any plans for aib to do the same?

eth0

Irish Steve wrote: »

No, sad to see BOI hanging on for so long to something that was so uniquely Irish it was almost useless in the rest of the Euro zone. At least the Visa Debit card can be used in most countries and with a lot more suppliers. It's taken way too long for this sort of change to happen.

There are plenty of similar things in other countries but they dont feel the need to get rid of it for that reason. They could have made em work better abroad without signing up to visa who will no doubt want a cut from every transaction.

bnt

This thread is a little confusing, since I have an AIB debit card that is both a Laser card and a Maestro card. Maestro = MasterCard Debit, and I've used it without difficulty in four different countries, including France and the USA. So, why can't these other banks do both?

Fulton Crown

orourkeda wrote: »

Sounds like she needs to be thought a lesson.

Jest dab a bit o tabasco on the tip of your Dick.

That will fuckin teach her.....

RonMexico

bnt wrote: »

This thread is a little confusing, since I have an AIB debit card that is both a Laser card and a Maestro card. Maestro = MasterCard Debit, and I've used it without difficulty in four different countries, including France and the USA. So, why can't these other banks do both?

My just issued and good til 2015 BOI Laser Card arrived today stamped with a Maestro logo and a Cirrus logo.

robindch

bnt wrote: »

This thread is a little confusing, since I have an AIB debit card that is both a Laser card and a Maestro card. Maestro = MasterCard Debit, and I've used it without difficulty in four different countries, including France and the USA. So, why can't these other banks do both?

Your Chip and PIN card has multiple payment applications on it, generally including Laser and Maestro. In Ireland, the default debit application is Laser, which is a domestic debit scheme, so the money comes straight out of your local Irish-bank account. If you're abroad, forren terminals don't know nothing about Laser and Irish domestic schemes, so they select Maestro which is an international debit standard and does much the same thing (takes money straight out of your account), but at a higher transaction fee (levied by, and paid to, MasterCard).

Visa Debit levies transaction fees that are almost certainly different and since BOI and AIB are both switching to Visa Debit, I'm assuming that there's a financial reason -- probably related to lower overall transactions fees -- for doing so.

The transaction fees are no doubt private with the banks, but you can find out as much as you want about Chip and PIN here:

http://www.emvco.com

robindch

eth0 wrote: »

Laser ftw. I got mine in november of last year. Sad to see something uniquely irish replaced by some bland american mega corporation

Do you have much experience of international payment networks and the many, non-interoperable domestic credit and debit schemes which exist under the EMV umbrella?

EMV, whose standards Laser sticks to, is owned by Visa, MasterCard, Amex and JCB, each of which are co-operative organizations are owned by their member banks, including AIB and BOI.

Solair

The problem is that small schemes like Laser cannot remain viable as they require huge technological systems to support them, particularly for securing online transactions.

When Laser was introduced, it was only really a replacement for your cheque book and was only really ever intended to be used in Irish retail contexts.

Debit cards are now used in vastly more complex transaction systems and internationally. Small schemes simply cannot keep up.

The banks are ditching Laser for those reasons.

Does anyone actually have a BOI or AIB Visa Debit card yet?

I know BOI's supposed to be launching them soon.

robindch

Solair wrote: »

The problem is that small schemes like Laser cannot remain viable as they require huge technological systems to support them, particularly for securing online transactions.

Not true.

For historical reasons, most chip-based Laser cards in Ireland are implemented on a VSDC (Visa) native chip, using a (Maestro) MasterCard payment standard. The chip technology and platforms behind Laser are no more "Irish" than Chicken Vindaloo.

BTW, Laser does not support CAP/DPA which is used for to secure online transactions properly, nor does it use the much less secure "3-D Secure" (MasterCard's implementation is called "SecureCode" and Visa's is called "Verified by Visa"). Laser does support CVV (the three digits on the back of the card) which, from the bank's perspective, about as secure as hearing an oath on somebody's granny's grave.

Solair wrote: »

When Laser was introduced, it was only really a replacement for your cheque book and was only really ever intended to be used in Irish retail contexts. Debit cards are now used in vastly more complex transaction systems and internationally. Small schemes simply cannot keep up.

Only partially true. Laser is a standard domestic debit scheme, and was never intended to be anything else. It's very similar to many other national schemes in many other countries and broadly speaking, these are being phased out over time and being replaced with international debit schemes such as Visa Debit.

Solair wrote: »

The banks are ditching Laser for those reasons.

The reasons have nothing to do with technology are are entirely to do with (a) from the cardholder's perspective, extending debit usage to non-domestic POS traffic, and (b) from the bank's perspective, reducing transaction fees.

Solair wrote: »

Does anyone actually have a BOI or AIB Visa Debit card yet?

Contact your bank for the latest public issuance schedule.

therealgirl

Solair wrote: »

The problem is that small schemes like Laser cannot remain viable as they require huge technological systems to support them, particularly for securing online transactions.

When Laser was introduced, it was only really a replacement for your cheque book and was only really ever intended to be used in Irish retail contexts.

Debit cards are now used in vastly more complex transaction systems and internationally. Small schemes simply cannot keep up.

The banks are ditching Laser for those reasons.

Does anyone actually have a BOI or AIB Visa Debit card yet?

I know BOI's supposed to be launching them soon.

I knew nothing about this change over, just been using my Laser for everything as usual, then about 2 months ago I noticed 'Debit card transaction' on my bank statements wherever I used my Laser card...I haven't been issued a new card or anything...I rang the bank, and BOI being unhelpful as always just said 'yeah thats just a Debit card no different to the Laser'....

...so I am still none the wiser as to what it is?? Go BOI huh!

robindch

therealgirl wrote: »

...so I am still none the wiser as to what it is?? Go BOI huh!

A Laser card is a debit card. Means that when you use it at an ATM or a point of sale terminal, the money comes out of your account either immediately (ATM) or within the next couple of days (POS). If you have no cash in your account, the transaction will be declined and you'll have to figure out some other way of paying or getting cash.

A credit card (eg, Visa/MasterCard Credit) will give you cash or allow you to purchase goods and services on credit, even if you don't have any money your bank account. The bank takes the risk that you won't pay them back and will issue you with a bill at the end of the month and you have to pay this off fairly quickly, or deal with high interest rates (around 20-25% APR) which are levied if you don't.

What you use is up to you.

Solair

I can assure you, security and cost of on-going maintenance of security systems is a *very* major concern with these national schemes.

Many of the latest innovations in security and transaction networks are Visa / MC or AmEx specific and are not available to other schemes.

Card usability and an EU directive demanding international usability are two driving forces, but the fraud costs around some of the national schemes are rising fast.

There were discussion documents proposing integrating the various EU national schemes, like Laser, but the technical hurdles and cost seem to be too high and most banks appear to have opted to go with existing international systems like Visa Debit instead.

This process happened in the UK about 8 years ago or so, when Switch vanished and Delta Card became Visa Debit.

Bear in mind that in Ireland you have two different systems that are not the same in use on most Laser cards.

Laser domestically - a very low tech, bog-standard debit system which doesn't even require CCV codes!!! Some online sites, that specifically accept Laser will allow these very insecure transactions to go through!

Maestro (Mastercard debit) internationally, and in some online contexts, which is a lot more secure but not very widely supported and often badly implemented online where only locally issued Maestros are accepted. This is the only aspect of the card that uses 3D Secure.

From an end user's perspective, the change over to Visa Debit will make absolutely no practical difference to how they use their card. It just extends it to online and international use.
Also, retailers will continue to get pretty decent rates on domestic-issued Visa debit cards. There's no particular reason why Laser-like rates would change, unless the Irish banks want to screw them for some reason. Most countries where Visa / MC debit is already rolled out do not charge anything like credit-card % on transactions conducted on debit cards.

In the USA, sometimes those debit card schemes will allow the card to be processed "as credit card". In which case, fees are higher where the retailer doesn't have debit-card specific applications setup on their POS terminal.

Pacifist Pigeon

Yipee!!!

robindch

Solair wrote: »

[...] most banks appear to have opted to go with existing international systems like Visa Debit instead.

The reasons for this are complex, mostly financial and political, and not technical.

Solair wrote: »

I can assure you, security and cost of on-going maintenance of security systems is a *very* major concern with these national schemes.

The point I was making above is that the security systems which support Laser, being based upon existing Visa and MasterCard standards, are no different from the security systems which support Visa and MasterCard directly. The card plastics are the same, the terminals are the same, the HSM's are the same and the acquiring and issuing host software is the same. The costs to support Laser are pretty much identical to those for supporting Visa/MasterCard.

Solair wrote: »

Bear in mind that in Ireland you have two different systems that are not the same in use on most Laser cards.

There are four EMV applications on an AIB Laser card -- IBAS (AID A0000002262512, Irish ATM cash withdrawal), Laser (AID A0000002252306, Irish debit POS), Maestro (AID A0000000043060, International ATM) and Link ATM (AID A0000004939002, UK ATM). BOI's Laser card is pretty much the same.

Solair wrote: »

From an end user's perspective, the change over to Visa Debit will make absolutely no practical difference to how they use their card. It just extends it to online and international use.

As I mentioned above, the major change is that Visa Debit will allow cardholders to do debit transactions on POS systems outside of Ireland. AIB's and BOI's Visa Debit will also support contactless transactions -- see here and here.

Solair wrote: »

Most countries where Visa / MC debit is already rolled out do not charge anything like credit-card % on transactions conducted on debit cards.

Yes, because credit transactions are inherently riskier transactions (the bank is risking that the cardholder may not repay), so there's a higher transaction fee to pay for the this increased risk.

Debit transactions are, from the bank's perspective, far less risky, since the cash is debited directly from the cardholder's account and the bank is not, therefore, carrying any risk of non-repayment.

SeaFields

Maybe something like this has been posted already but anyway...My laser expired this month so I was expecting a visa debit to arrive in its place. When it didnt I emailed BOI for an explanation....

In response to your email regarding Visa Debit Card, we have yet to start posting these cards to customers and expect this to be towards the end of March. Due to the high level of cards we need to convert, this process needs to be done on a phased basis.

When the Visa Debit card is available on the system for staff to order, your branch will do their best to accommodate you and order one in advance of it being changed on the phased basis. We would suggest contacting your branch either the last week of March or the first week of April to enquire about this.

Will be waiting awhile yet

Krusader

Mine expired this month and got another Laser in return also

SeaFields

Yeah, i was well disappointed. I was looking forward to cutting up the credit card this morning but will have to keep it a bit longer .

44leto

I want one so I can get rid of my credit card, I need the cashsave for my wages and a credit card for internet shopping as a lot of sites don't take the laser, but i hate the fact I am paying tax on the 2 cards.

SeaFields

44leto wrote: »

I want one so I can get rid of my credit card, I need the cashsave for my wages and a credit card for internet shopping as a lot of sites don't take the laser, but i hate the fact I am paying tax on the 2 cards.

Pain in the hole that credit card tax. Its not as if they are getting VAT and all that craic out of you for buying stuff anyway

skinny90

Is this new not about smart cards NFC technology?

skinny90

Sorry I just saw the last few posts

Flaccus

My Visa debit arrived last week. I normally pay my MBNA credit card bill online via laser. No option for credit card. I wonder will the new BOI visa debit card still work ?

D_D

I've been using mine for about 2 months now. I lost my wallet and rang BOI to cancel all my cards. The lady on the other end of the phone just said 'ah sure, I'll send you on one of the new Visa Debit cards instead of a laser'.

Wasn't sure what it was but accepted it anyway. The first time I tried to use it (after it was activated) was in a Spar. The guy behind the counter just looked at me and said 'we don't accept these cards'. So wasn't off to a good start with it. Another place swiped it and it came up declined. Had plenty of money in my account though.

These are the only two times I have had problems. It's been plain sailing since. Also, have never used the NFC system yet. I haven't seen any places that accept it.

Hande hoche!

Wish AIB would follow suit.

prometheus2012

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Wish AIB would follow suit.

They have. All cards will be issued before September.

Also, Cashsave accounts which once worked off your Banklink/AIB Laser card have been invalid at ATMs since April. Pain in the hole.

Hande hoche!

prometheus2012 wrote: »

They have. All cards will be issued before September.

Also, Cashsave accounts which once worked off your Banklink/AIB Laser card have been invalid at ATMs since April. Pain in the hole.

Good to know, thanks.

delad

When will the contactless readers be rolled out? I've had my new card a while but haven't seen any places which have the readers for contactless transactions.

scamalert

Went to the bank last week to change my bank card which was 6 years old,almost colorless and barely readable card,so anyway lady at the customer service asks me,do i still work ,i go yeah,and she says we will issue you new visa debit card .So im thinking whats the allowed overdraft limit on the new cards or does it depend from person to person?

Professey Chin

scamalert wrote: »

Went to the bank last week to change my bank card which was 6 years old,almost colorless and barely readable card,so anyway lady at the customer service asks me,do i still work ,i go yeah,and she says we will issue you new visa debit card .So im thinking whats the allowed overdraft limit on the new cards or does it depend from person to person?

Overdrafts are tied to accounts, not cards so it depends on the person

Guy:Incognito

D_D wrote: »

Wasn't sure what it was but accepted it anyway. The first time I tried to use it (after it was activated) was in a Spar. The guy behind the counter just looked at me and said 'we don't accept these cards'. So wasn't off to a good start with it. Another place swiped it and it came up declined. Had plenty of money in my account though..

The guy in Spar is an idiot or very misinformed. Visa Debit has been around for years now and can be used anywhere that Visa is accepted.