GAA stadiums to host Rugby World Cup

ProudDUB

WallyGUFC wrote: »

If the GAA asked for gate receipts I'm sure the bid would be dead in the water straight away. A rental fee for each stadium is the obvious one,

I agree. What is the point of hosting the event at all, if the IRFU have to hand over the gate receipts to over half their games to the GAA

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I too am sceptical about the general population buying into this event, I doubt it would be a success if it was staged here

The RWC is a bloated 20 team event that takes the best part of 6 weeks.

Sure people will want to see Ireland and the big teams, and you will get UK residents and UK based SH ex-pats coming over on day or weekend trips to see their teams, but after that crowds will be thin on the ground.

Take for example the groups in the last world cup
Each group has two 'top 8' teams and the other three teams are 'minnows'
So even with a NZ, Aus or SA in the group there is only really one game that will be a big attraction, the game be 1st and 2nd seed, after that it's rubbish
How many would turn up to watch SA v Fiji, or NZ v Romania, or Canada v Romania

People can make comparisons all they like about the population size being similar to NZ, but remember rugby is the number 1 sport in NZ, it's probably 4th on the list in Ireland
I think a bid is pure folly

I have seen estimates of over 300,000 people visting Ireland for the RWC. Over 130,000 people went to NZ for the last RWC, even though most of them had to travel thousands of miles & spend massive amounts of money to do so. I really can see us getting three times that, precisely because we are so close to the traditional rugby playing countries in Europe & the massive expat communities that live there. I don't think that you can underestimate the expats. There are half a million Australians in the UK alone, never mind the rest of Europe.

Given all that, I don't think that the organizers would be as reliant on the native population here getting out and going to games as they were in New Zealand. When it does come to the Irish going to see games that Ireland is not involved in, plenty of them would go and see the likes of New Zealand or South Africa play a game, even if it is a first round game against a crappy opponent. They are the aristocrats of the sport. Plus, we are a naturally sociable people and we love our big events & all the buzz and craic around them, be it an All Ireland final, or the Ploughing Championships, or the Rose of Tralee. Over 250,000 attended the Tall Ships Festival last year & how many of us have ever seen or set foot on a tall ship before?

Pete_Cavan

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I too am sceptical about the general population buying into this event, I doubt it would be a success if it was staged here

The RWC is a bloated 20 team event that takes the best part of 6 weeks.

Sure people will want to see Ireland and the big teams, and you will get UK residents and UK based SH ex-pats coming over on day or weekend trips to see their teams, but after that crowds will be thin on the ground.

Take for example the groups in the last world cup
Each group has two 'top 8' teams and the other three teams are 'minnows'
So even with a NZ, Aus or SA in the group there is only really one game that will be a big attraction, the game be 1st and 2nd seed, after that it's rubbish
How many would turn up to watch SA v Fiji, or NZ v Romania, or Canada v Romania

People can make comparisons all they like about the population size being similar to NZ, but remember rugby is the number 1 sport in NZ, it's probably 4th on the list in Ireland
I think a bid is pure folly

Of course the general population would buy into the RWC were it to be held here, people bought into the Volvo Ocean Race ffs! Rugby is huge here, even if participation is great compared with the main sports, there certainly is an interest generally in the sport. The RWC is a huge international event and would attract hundreds of thousands of people from around the world, the Irish people would be more than happy to join in the celebrations. We would be proclaiming it to be the greatest RWC ever regardless of what happens.

I can hear it now; "Never you mind about that big international sports event happening over there with the thousands of people from across the world attending, it will be Arthur's Day soon and then we will have a credible event worth celebrating!"

Fr Tod Umptious

ProudDUB wrote: »

I agree. What is the point of hosting the event at all, if the IRFU have to hand over the gate receipts to over half their games to the GAA



I have seen estimates of over 300,000 people visting Ireland for the RWC. Over 130,000 people went to NZ for the last RWC, even though most of them had to travel thousands of miles & spend massive amounts of money to do so. I really can see us getting three times that, precisely because we are so close to the traditional rugby playing countries in Europe & the massive expat communities that live there. I don't think that you can underestimate the expats. There are half a million Australians in the UK alone, never mind the rest of Europe.

Given all that, I don't think that the organizers would be as reliant on the native population here getting out and going to games as they were in New Zealand. When it does come to the Irish going to see games that Ireland is not involved in, plenty of them would go and see the likes of New Zealand or South Africa play a game, even if it is a first round game against a crappy opponent. They are the aristocrats of the sport. Plus, we are a naturally sociable people and we love our big events & all the buzz and craic around them, be it an All Ireland final, or the Ploughing Championships, or the Rose of Tralee. Over 250,000 attended the Tall Ships Festival last year & how many of us have ever seen or set foot on a tall ship before?

Visiting fans from the UK/Europe will be mostly day trippers and weekend visits
In NZ you got the folks who went there for the full 6 weeks and did the whole country tour while at it, it's a great country for that.

And yes you will get a certain curiosity factor for Aus, NZ, SA v Tonga etc, but it will not be huge, the interest is just not there in this country
Will you get anyone going to Tonga v Romania etc.

As I said in my post, the RWC is bloated, 12 of the 20 teams could be regarded as total minnows
A smaller tournament would guarantee better crowds with less expenditure

KevIRL

Fraher Field is a surprise addition to the likely grounds for this

ProudDUB

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Visiting fans from the UK/Europe will be mostly day trippers and weekend visits
In NZ you got the folks who went there for the full 6 weeks and did the whole country tour while at it, it's a great country for that.

And yes you will get a certain curiosity factor for Aus, NZ, SA v Tonga etc, but it will not be huge, the interest is just not there in this country
Will you get anyone going to Tonga v Romania etc.

How do you know that? Ireland for a week is much, much more doable for someone from the UK, than heading off to NZ for 6 weeks. And even if some people did come for a weekend or a day, the cheap airfare and short travel times, makes it doable for a lot more people to do that very thing. They don't need to take 2 months of work, or save for a year, to come over here for a game or two. I can see an awful, awful lot more Brits and SH expats and French and Italians popping over here for a few days, than those lucky few who made the trip of a lifetime to NZ for 6 weeks.

I doubt if all that many people went to Tonga vs Romania when the RWC was held in NZ. That didn't stop it from being a very successful event.

homerjay2005

Hibbeler wrote: »

At the very least we should expect a boost to the economy and hopefully an improvement in terms of national infrastructure and sports facility quality.

ya thats it - think of it this way - all these stadium upgrades, along with road/rail and other infrastructure plans would lead to 5000+ construction jobs (and that is being conservative). taking these off the dole, is worth approximately at least 1million a week, for every week the projects are running. add in the tax that these lads would pay (for argument sake another million per week) and you already have €100million net impact a year for the goverment.

and thats only one aspect.

Fr Tod Umptious

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ya thats it - think of it this way - all these stadium upgrades, along with road/rail and other infrastructure plans would lead to 5000+ construction jobs (and that is being conservative). taking these off the dole, is worth approximately at least 1million a week, for every week the projects are running. add in the tax that these lads would pay (for argument sake another million per week) and you already have €100million net impact a year for the goverment.

and thats only one aspect.

But where is the money going to come from for such an investment ?
And does it have along term benefits

The majority of the big games are going to be played in 4 stadiums that are fit for purpose, Aviva, CP, Thomond and Ravenhill

The rest will get the scraps and don't belive there will be enough interest in Canada v Tonga in Castlebar to warrant the investment

RoyalCelt

ProudDUB wrote: »

I agree. What is the point of hosting the event at all, if the IRFU have to hand over the gate receipts to over half their games to the GAA

Why shouldn't they be entitled to the matches played in their stadiums? The IRFU would be getting priceless exposure all over the country. Plus over all the country will make a profit if done right. So that alone is enough of a reason to host it.

I'm a Rugby and a GAA fan but why shouldn't they ask for the GAA stadium gate receipts. It's their stadiums after all isn't it?

The Lost Sheep

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Why shouldn't they be entitled to the matches played in their stadiums? The IRFU would be getting priceless exposure all over the country. Plus over all the country will make a profit if done right. So that alone is enough of a reason to host it.

I'm a Rugby and a GAA fan but why shouldn't they ask for the GAA stadium gate receipts. It's their stadiums after all isn't it?

They wouldn't as a significant portion of the gate receipts in a world cup go to IRB not the host nation.
So GAA wouldn't get that. The GAA would more than likely get a down payment or other payments from IRFU(aided by government perhaps)/IRB.

RoyalCelt

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They wouldn't as a significant portion of the gate receipts in a world cup go to IRB not the host nation.
So GAA wouldn't get that. The GAA would more than likely get a down payment or other payments from IRFU(aided by government perhaps)/IRB.

That makes sense. I think it's stupid that the host nation doesn't get the gate money especially when you consider how expensive it is to host it.

What sort of down payment would you expect from the IRFU/Government.

They tell us we'll make an 800 million profit but i believe it will be nearer to 200 million.

Based on that would they throw the GAA 30 million or would that be too much or too little?

Duckworth_Luas

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They wouldn't as a significant portion of the gate receipts in a world cup go to IRB not the host nation.
So GAA wouldn't get that. The GAA would more than likely get a down payment or other payments from IRFU(aided by government perhaps)/IRB.

Incorrect! All gate receipts go to the tournament organisers, i.e. the host union. As part of the hosting agreement the union has to pay the IRB a one off tournament fee. The fee for RWC 2015 in England is £80 million, £25 million of which was paid by the UK government.

The IRB also get all tournament sponsorship and broadcasting fees. The IRB's take goes towards funding development of rugby internationally over the next 4 years.

However, I would imagine that the IRFU would simply rent the required stadiums from the GAA.

The GAA could also use this oppurtunity to put a central stadium development procedure in place.

JessePinkman

I think the country should seriously start looking at hosting the likes of the U20 rugby world Cup,U-19 Euro soccer championships,u-20 world cup soccer etc..

I don't think we will win the bid for the Rugby world cup mainly because South Africa and Italy will have stronger bids than us,And thats not even considering if Argentina or Canada throw there hat in the ring.We are well able host it but i just think we will be shoved down the list a little.

Prop Joe

The ticket prices have just been released for the World Cup in England.

With ticket prices like that there would be a significant drop in attendances by "non -rugby" fans,And there was only 1 official sell out there,The Final

Maybe some LOI stadia would suit better.There were group games in the NZ WC that got crowds of just 10k and rugby is the no.1 sport there.

If you had Croker,Aviva,Thomand and Casement for the bigger games

Tallaght,Turners Cross and Connacht Rugby could host the rest.

RickyBobby1

I'm a neutral here but I really hope the gaa and the rugby could help each other out.
I understand the all Ireland is sacred but as a once off I hope they would compromise and move the date by a week or two should be no big deal?
There's no point saying oh screw the irfu they should move the world cup dates,that would make them a less attractive option.
This is more than sport,think of how this would boost our economy it would be huge

Pete_Cavan

JessePinkman wrote: »

I don't think we will win the bid for the Rugby world cup mainly because South Africa and Italy will have stronger bids than us,And thats not even considering if Argentina or Canada throw there hat in the ring.We are well able host it but i just think we will be shoved down the list a little.

That is ridiculous. First of all, South Africa and Italy will not have better bids. Italy has a host of municipal stadia built for the Italia90 but are now very outdated. The soccer clubs there want to get away from the municipal stadia because they have to pay rent for substandard facilities and develop their own stadia. The municipal stadia will not be usable come 2023 and soccer clubs wont give up the stadia they own during their season for an event that will promote a rival sport. We will have better stadia. Rugby is more popular among the general public here than in Italy so we are more likely to buy into the RWC than the Italians where there is a militancy associated with their support for their soccer clubs.

South Africa is very isolated and difficult for most people to get to. After RWC 2019 in Japan, IRB will be keen to get back to Europe where attendances are maximised because of the number of fans on the doorstep. The 6 Nation Unions would prefer to come here where they will have greater support. Also the size of Ireland means logistically the tournament here would be easier for the teams rather than travelling huge distances across South Africa between games. South Africa have also hosted before which should count against them.

Argentina and Canada are not in good time zones for TV audiences in any of the countries where rugby is popular.

We will have good stadia and we are located with the highest concentration of rugby fans in the world on our doorstep, RWC 2023 in Ireland is a more attractive proposition commercially than any of the countries you mention.

Prop Joe wrote: »

Maybe some LOI stadia would suit better.There were group games in the NZ WC that got crowds of just 10k and rugby is the no.1 sport there.

If you had Croker,Aviva,Thomand and Casement for the bigger games

Tallaght,Turners Cross and Connacht Rugby could host the rest.

LOI stadia certainly are not suitable. We will get much bigger attendances than NZ for the simple fact that it will be easier for people to get here, even smaller nations like Georgia and Romania could muster a decent support here which would not be possible in NZ. The smallest stadium here would still have to hold at least 15,000. The average attendance for LOI is something like 2,000, it would be madness to build 15,000+ stadia for 2 or 3 games and have no atmosphere at every game thereafter. The GAA stadia are the only ones which will continue to host large crowds post RWC so they would actually justify the investment. Without multiple 30,000+ stadia, our bid would not be considered.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

freyners wrote: »

just asked my father,a die-hard gaa fan about this idea,

his response

"get your foreign game off our fcking pitch":pac:

....and take the few hundred million it would generate for the Irish economy with you

Prop Joe

freyners wrote: »

just asked my father,a die-hard gaa fan about this idea,

his response

"get your foreign game off our fcking pitch":pac:

just asked my father,a die-hard rugby fan about this idea,

his response

"I hate GAA, I will never support them and the only time I mention them is when there is a drawn match,which they obviously rigged so they can get more money,but I will kick up a fuss if they don't lend me all there facilities when it suits me

melekalikimaka

They wont change the WC dates, and I can imagine if things look up, the government will step in and throw cash till the GAA heads are pacified

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Prop Joe wrote: »

just asked my father,a die-hard rugby fan about this idea,

his response

"I hate GAA, I will never support them and the only time I mention them is when there is a drawn match,which they obviously rigged so they can get more money,but I will kick up a fuss if they don't lend me all there facilities when it suits me

lol, yes they are obviously rigged!

jmayo

Orizio wrote: »

I think none of these stadiums (bar Croker) would be up to holding games for a Rugby World Cup without seriously huge investment. Also two of the above are in Connacht, not exactly a rugby hotbed. Also Castlebar and Thurles probably wouldn't have the infastructure for holding a major sports tournament. Also, significantly altering the GAA calender would be borderline impossible, its a mess as it is.

In sum, Rule 42 is the least of your problems.

The RWC is about the only major world sports event we have a chance of hosting.
It is third biggest world sports event AFAIK.

NZ got it and trust me some of the cities/towns are no fecking great shakes.
In fact one of the major ones for the tournament was a pile of rubble was it not.
And most of their stadiums were not great on capacity either.
From quick research ...
Nelson only held 18,000 odd.
Palmerston North held 15,000 odd.
Whangarei held 15,000 odd.
And Invercargill which is in the ar** end of nowhere held 20,000.

Oh and Queenstown which has fair amount of accommodation, international airport and is very pretty indeed did not get a game.
So there Killarney smoke that.

Oh and in the WC in France they held matches in Nantes and Lens which has shag all rugby.
So please Orizio stop having a poke at Connacht.

For big viewing figures SA, Britain or Ireland are ideal hosts which discounts against the likes of the US.
I expect by 2023 SA to be mimicking Zimbabwe so maybe they will be out of the running.
Also it is difficult for fans to travel to after another overseas tournament.
Then it could be down to us and the Brits.

Also people are complaining about certain towns not having the infrastructure when a hell of a lot of the games will not be attracting big crowds anyway.
I also like how some posters mention Cavan, Thurles and Clones and yet discount the likes of Castlebar which is actually on a rail link, near a major international airport and has more hotel space nearby I bet than the others.
Plus the kiwis/aussies can feel more at home.

There might be some horse trading involved in a bid, like what Fance did with Wales, so that it could end up with the Scots and/or Welsh getting a couple of games.
Personally I would not want to set out with Welsh involved since they couldn't be trusted not to sell us out to the English.

For a lot of the matches you would have a one day influx of people from the other European nations.
The only ones stationed for a time here would be the Southerners, the few yanks, Japanese and Canadians that might travel.
Even then the ones from afar would probably use us as a hub to visit the UK over the course of the tournament.

I think it would be good for the country and we could all, north, south, east, West, GAA and Rugby alike benefit.

Duckworth_Luas

melekalikimaka wrote: »

They wont change the WC dates, and I can imagine if things look up, the government will step in and throw cash till the GAA heads are pacified

Maybe you should leave this discussion to the non sports bigots!

Fr Tod Umptious

Prop Joe wrote: »

The ticket prices have just been released for the World Cup in England.

With ticket prices like that there would be a significant drop in attendances by "non -rugby" fans,And there was only 1 official sell out there,The Final

Maybe some LOI stadia would suit better.There were group games in the NZ WC that got crowds of just 10k and rugby is the no.1 sport there.

If you had Croker,Aviva,Thomand and Casement for the bigger games

Tallaght,Turners Cross and Connacht Rugby could host the rest.

Your dead right
From the RTE website
England 2015 has announced that over one million of the total 2.3m available tickets will go on sale at £100 (€119) or less with 500,000 selling at £50 (€59) or less.

Those prices are unlikely to go down by 2023, so i am not sure how many people in a country where Rugby is the 4th most popular field sport will fork out that sort of money for tickets

Another poster said that Ireland would get good crowds from Georgia and Romania, they will in their sh**te, people from those countries do not travel in great numbers to such events
You will get big numbers from the UK and possibly France to see their teams, on day and weekend trips, but after that it will be a tough sell

RickyBobby1 wrote: »

I'm a neutral here but I really hope the gaa and the rugby could help each other out.
I understand the all Ireland is sacred but as a once off I hope they would compromise and move the date by a week or two should be no big deal?
There's no point saying oh screw the irfu they should move the world cup dates,that would make them a less attractive option.
This is more than sport,think of how this would boost our economy it would be huge

The GAA have already agreed, at congress level, to make their stadiums available for a bit

Fireball07

I'm a big fan of both GAA and Rugby, and think hosting the RWC would be brilliant for the country, and if the GAA are paid a reasonable fee (though I don't think it should be extortionate), they should definitely let their stadiums be used.


Pitches like the Gaelic Grounds, for example, are used minimally during the year. A couple of league matches, maybe a Championship match or two, and a handul of club games.

RoyalCelt

melekalikimaka wrote: »

They wont change the WC dates, and I can imagine if things look up, the government will step in and throw cash till the GAA heads are pacified

I hope it happens. Being a Meath fan I'm hoping the GAA will have money to devolope grounds like Navan, Drogheda and Newbridge.

And hopefully they'll do a deal with the government to increase the GPA grant they get every year.

J Cheever Loophole

Fireball07 wrote: »

....if the GAA are paid a reasonable fee (though I don't think it should be extortionate), they should definitely let their stadiums be used.

My own hope would be that the main benefit to the GAA would be significant improvements in infrastructure at several major grounds. That would be great to see.

slingerz

i thought they had already nominated the GAA grounds to be used?

Pearse Stadium being the only Connacht ground

Gaelic Grounds, Thomond, Fitzgerald Stadium, Pairc Ui Chaoimh in Munster

Croke Park, Aviva, RDS in Dublin

Casement Park & Ravenhill in Ulster

We should all be practical enough to know that the tourism boards will be very keen on this succeeding and of course crowds will travel to support their sides from the SH and other 6N sides.

While prices for England 2015 are expensive, you can be sure there will be enough people pay out for them when the time comes

Prop Joe

slingerz wrote: »

While prices for England 2015 are expensive, you can be sure there will be enough people pay out for them when the time comes

Of course England has a population of about 60 million,Alot more people to go through the turnstiles than over here

Prop Joe

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is ridiculous. Italy has a host of municipal stadia built for the Italia90 but are now very outdated We will have better stadia. Rugby is more popular among the general public here than in Italy so we are more likely to buy into the RWC than the Italians.

This is not true,Italy would have far superior stadia than us,Including corporate facilities that are so important to a WC bid.

San Siro - 80,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Stadio Olimpico - 73,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Juventus Stadium - 40,000 - UEFA 4 Star rating
Stadio Torino - 28,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Stadio Friuli - 30,000 - Just finished renovations this year
Stadio Arenas - 17,000 - Completed this year

Plus the Italian government are pushing through new laws and tax incentives for Siera A clubs to build there own stadiums instead of renting.

New stadia in Florence,Milan,Rome and Genoa are already in planning mode.

With a population of over 60 million as well you would expect them to have healthy attendances at most matches

slingerz

Prop Joe wrote: »

Of course England has a population of about 60 million,Alot more people to go through the turnstiles than over here

Those going through the turnstiles would also be open to making the short trip much in the way irish fans to for rugby/soccer

that said, the novelty of it will see a lot more irish people attend matches in ireland if it was held here that currently frequent rugby stadia at present

jmayo

Prop Joe wrote: »

This is not true,Italy would have far superior stadia than us,Including corporate facilities that are so important to a WC bid.

San Siro - 80,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Stadio Olimpico - 73,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Juventus Stadium - 40,000 - UEFA 4 Star rating
Stadio Torino - 28,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Stadio Friuli - 30,000 - Just finished renovations this year
Stadio Arenas - 17,000 - Completed this year

Plus the Italian government are pushing through new laws and tax incentives for Siera A clubs to build there own stadiums instead of renting.

New stadia in Florence,Milan,Rome and Genoa are already in planning mode.

With a population of over 60 million as well you would expect them to have healthy attendances at most matches

I didn't know Italy are in the running for RWC.
I thought the more possible bid is Argentina where the game is really taking off with huge amount of youths getting into the game.
Also the Argentinians are playing a clever game of spreading the internationals outside of Buenos Ares in order to further fuel the interest in the country.

I wouldn't have thought Italian soccer is in great shape at the moment and capable of making huge investments in new stadia.

J Cheever Loophole

Prop Joe wrote: »

This is not true,Italy would have far superior stadia than us,Including corporate facilities that are so important to a WC bid.

San Siro - 80,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Stadio Olimpico - 73,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Juventus Stadium - 40,000 - UEFA 4 Star rating
Stadio Torino - 28,000 - UEFA 5 Star rating
Stadio Friuli - 30,000 - Just finished renovations this year
Stadio Arenas - 17,000 - Completed this year

Plus the Italian government are pushing through new laws and tax incentives for Siera A clubs to build there own stadiums instead of renting.

New stadia in Florence,Milan,Rome and Genoa are already in planning mode.

With a population of over 60 million as well you would expect them to have healthy attendances at most matches

I think there is a general perception in Italy that their stadia are very run down - particularly in comparison to places like England and Germany.

I have two friends who regularly attend the San Siro and although it is still a wonderful arena, they describe it as outdated. I know Roma are desperate to get out of the Stadio Olimpico as it is essentially an athletics stadium, and with the odd exception, Italian stadia are in desperate need of rennovation.

That said, their stadia would still be ahead of ours, but in bidding for a rugby world cup (if that is what Italy are doing) I don't believe it would be a significant advantage.

Boom__Boom

Apparently the various soccer stadiums used in England are getting well-rewarded in cash terms for hosting the various games. When you consider that pretty much all of the non-rugby stadiums in England being used are owned by the individual clubs who would have been competing for the business, I'd imagine that there was a fair amount of competition in term of keeping the price down (If any one stadium was looking for completely outrageous money there was likely to be other options in terms of going elsewhere)

Compare that to here, where the GAA is the owner of all the stadiums and that without the GAA's co-operation the bid is completely dead in the water, I can see the IRFU/rugby authorities having to fork over a serious chunk of change to use the various stadiums. As such as a GAA fan I can see it being a positive for the GAA - they will be getting a set fee and it won't matter to the GAA whether 5,000 or 50,000 turn up for matches.

However as a tax-payer, I'm very wary of the government being asked to contribute tax-payers money on the basis of very airy-fairy "it will be good for the country/the economy/tourism" down the line. I could easily see some government minister signing away millions of tax-payer money because they got decent seats in the Aviva for a few 6 nations games on the basis of very little hard evidence but on simple castles-in-the-air build-it-and-they-will-come PR guff from the IRFU knowing that when the time comes to actually foot the bill they would be long gone from office. There's a long list of places that held various Olympics and World Cups that ended up making serious losses because they thought that holding these events would be a license to make money.

The IRFU have shown a complete inability to accurately judge demand for their 5/10 year tickets for Aviva so I would have very little faith in their ability to properly judge the level of demand and pricing for tickets in 10 years time. I would be taking their estimates with a serious grain of salt. I have serious doubts about whether the overall number of tickets can be sold at the prices required to turn a profit. If they are flogging tickets for a fiver or a tenner they will probably get a lot of people checking out a game. Raise that to 20 to 30 quid and interest will drop a fair bit. Push it up over 50 quid and it will drop fairly sharply. England has a population of 55 million while we have less than 5 million. Italy has a population of 60 million. People will point to New Zealand where the population is pretty much the same as ours the levels of interest in rugby in New Zealand is at a whole different level to here and I don't think people can grasp how much of a difference there is. I remember talking to a Kiwi girl who lived in Ireland for a few years and her explanation of how important rugby was in New Zealand was that it was had a more central place in Kiwi life than all of GAA, soccer, rugby in Ireland combined.

Before the government or the IRFU start spending money I would be scouring the financials of the entities responsible for holding the last few World Cups. I'd also be looking at talking to the head guys involved in terms of what went right and what went wrong. If I was a rugby supporter I would have serious questions that I would want answered about the logic of bidding for the World Cup as I could very easily see a situation where everyone bar the IRFU and the Irish tax-payer would benefit.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Boom__Boom wrote: »

However as a tax-payer, I'm very wary of the government being asked to contribute tax-payers money on the basis of very airy-fairy "it will be good for the country/the economy/tourism"

The Ryder cup brought in 143 million euro to the irish economy, I would imagine the RWC should bring in more that that.

jmayo

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Apparently the various soccer stadiums used in England are getting well-rewarded in cash terms for hosting the various games. When you consider that pretty much all of the non-rugby stadiums in England being used are owned by the individual clubs who would have been competing for the business, I'd imagine that there was a fair amount of competition in term of keeping the price down (If any one stadium was looking for completely outrageous money there was likely to be other options in terms of going elsewhere)

Compare that to here, where the GAA is the owner of all the stadiums and that without the GAA's co-operation the bid is completely dead in the water, I can see the IRFU/rugby authorities having to fork over a serious chunk of change to use the various stadiums. As such as a GAA fan I can see it being a positive for the GAA - they will be getting a set fee and it won't matter to the GAA whether 5,000 or 50,000 turn up for matches.

However as a tax-payer, I'm very wary of the government being asked to contribute tax-payers money on the basis of very airy-fairy "it will be good for the country/the economy/tourism" down the line. I could easily see some government minister signing away millions of tax-payer money because they got decent seats in the Aviva for a few 6 nations games on the basis of very little hard evidence but on simple castles-in-the-air build-it-and-they-will-come PR guff from the IRFU knowing that when the time comes to actually foot the bill they would be long gone from office. There's a long list of places that held various Olympics and World Cups that ended up making serious losses because they thought that holding these events would be a license to make money.

The IRFU have shown a complete inability to accurately judge demand for their 5/10 year tickets for Aviva so I would have very little faith in their ability to properly judge the level of demand and pricing for tickets in 10 years time. I would be taking their estimates with a serious grain of salt. I have serious doubts about whether the overall number of tickets can be sold at the prices required to turn a profit. If they are flogging tickets for a fiver or a tenner they will probably get a lot of people checking out a game. Raise that to 20 to 30 quid and interest will drop a fair bit. Push it up over 50 quid and it will drop fairly sharply. England has a population of 55 million while we have less than 5 million. Italy has a population of 60 million. People will point to New Zealand where the population is pretty much the same as ours the levels of interest in rugby in New Zealand is at a whole different level to here and I don't think people can grasp how much of a difference there is. I remember talking to a Kiwi girl who lived in Ireland for a few years and her explanation of how important rugby was in New Zealand was that it was had a more central place in Kiwi life than all of GAA, soccer, rugby in Ireland combined.

Before the government or the IRFU start spending money I would be scouring the financials of the entities responsible for holding the last few World Cups. I'd also be looking at talking to the head guys involved in terms of what went right and what went wrong. If I was a rugby supporter I would have serious questions that I would want answered about the logic of bidding for the World Cup as I could very easily see a situation where everyone bar the IRFU and the Irish tax-payer would benefit.

The big thing you are forgetting is that New Zealand had really to rely on their home market for a lot of the tickets sales.
We do not as we are right beside the biggest rugby nations in Europe.
Fans from the 6 nations teams bar Italy can be in this country in a not much more than a couple of hours and I am even counting a flight from the French rugby heartland of the south.
A flight from any of New Zealand rugby playing neighbours would take at the very least 3 hours.
And even then the only big nation in the area is Australia.

And I have no problem with the GAA demanding a fixed fee for the use of their stadiums.
They could also avail of taxpayer funding to assist them in redevelopment with condition they are used for bid purposes.

And frankly comparing an olumpic bid with RWC is like comparing apples and spuds.
Look at the variety of stadia and facilities that have to be developed for Olympics and usually theses places were only filled during the Olympics and never again.
A rugby/GAA stadium can more likely be used to it's potential in the years to come.

Boom__Boom

Hana Early Barrel wrote: »

The Ryder cup brought in 143 million euro to the irish economy, I would imagine the RWC should bring in more that that.

A lot of these reports that claim what certain events are worth to the economy are very one-sided with a lot of the assumptions being best possible case. Even the basic thing of saying "what something is worth to the economy" can be misleading. For instance the Ryder Cup might be worth €143 million to the economy but that isn't the same thing as €143 million extra.

A whole lot of these reports will say 100,000 tourists came to Ireland because of the some event and spent €10m in hotels restaurants and pubs. This €10m they spend because of the multiplier effect meant that they end up generating €50m in economic activity. However they don't mention that during that time period the country would normally have 70,000 visitors anyway and that a lot of tourists stayed away because of lack of availabilty/higher prices. These 70,000 would probably spend €7m and the multiplier effect would mean they would be worth €35m. So instead of being worth €50m the event being held is only worth €3m extra in terms of a direct increase and €15m in the economy due to the multiplier effect. That's only one aspect of the way things are massaged in these reports.

Basically be extremely sceptical or any report you see stating how much an event is worth. All too often these reports are produced by some accounting or consultancy firm and will have been paid for by some body with a vested interest in the report showing a certain viewpoint. All of the assumptions in the report will be the most-positive case possible and anything this looks negative or like a possible negative will simply be omitted. Data, statistics and chart will be massaged/cherry-picked to create the most possible case possible.

jmayo wrote: »

The big thing you are forgetting is that New Zealand had really to rely on their home market for a lot of the tickets sales.
We do not as we are right beside the biggest rugby nations in Europe.
Fans from the 6 nations teams bar Italy can be in this country in a not much more than a couple of hours and I am even counting a flight from the French rugby heartland of the south.
A flight from any of New Zealand rugby playing neighbours would take at the very least 3 hours.
And even then the only big nation in the area is Australia.

And I have no problem with the GAA demanding a fixed fee for the use of their stadiums.
They could also avail of taxpayer funding to assist them in redevelopment with condition they are used for bid purposes.

And frankly comparing an olumpic bid with RWC is like comparing apples and spuds.
Look at the variety of stadia and facilities that have to be developed for Olympics and usually theses places were only filled during the Olympics and never again.
A rugby/GAA stadium can more likely be used to it's potential in the years to come.

1,477,294 tickets total sold in New Zealand.
They had 133,000 overseas visitors.
Ireland's bid has a supposed forecast figure of 377,000 overseas visitors.
Still would require a whole lot of tickets sold to the natives. How many tickets would the locals buy at prices similar to the prices for England 2015?
Also how many of those visitors would simply be replacing visitors who would be likely to visit Ireland during that time period.

I'm not opposed to the idea of Ireland hosting the Rugby World Cup.
It could very well be an excellent thing.

I just want to see some independent research done on the financial side of things before we commit to spending wads of cash (especially tax-payer cash) on the project. All too often these sort of projects are announced in a blaze of positive PR/Spin/publicity and people go on about all the possible positives without looking at any possible negatives or factors such as where the money will come from. The fact that the government has been dragged in so early leads me to be suspicious that the IRFU has serious plans to hit up the government and by extension the tax-payers for cash. I'm always sceptical about projects that need government funds to proceed as normally if there is a decent likelihood of money to be made you will have no serious problem in finding investors.

I don't want optimism, I don't want pessimism, I want realism.

K-9

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The GAA could also use this oppurtunity to put a central stadium development procedure in place.

It could but I'd be very sceptical, look at the spread of decent stadia around the country, that if there had been a development strategy, a Rugby WC would be very easy to cater for.

Ulster is the only province with a coherent strategy, Clones was the chosen central venue for obvious reasons, and now that things have moved on there, Casement Park is going to get a world class redevelopment, not the typical GAA half arsed attempt at giving the money to everybody in the audience.

Look at Munster, Thurles, Limerick, Cork and Killarney all capable of hosting 30-45,000 at a Munster Final, Tralee and Parc Ui Rinn fine grounds for what they do, then you've Ennis and Waterford! Disgraceful. There's too much local competition.

Connacht has nice grounds in Castlebar and Salthill, with Hyde Park looking for redevelopment for some strange reason. Markievicz Park in Sligo and the ground in Carrick on Shannon just spent €100's of thousands on upgrading their grounds

Ballybofey in my own county spent a fortune in the last 20 years, only for the dreaded Health and Safety to intervene last year and severely curtail the capacity, hence spending 100's of thousands to host one game vs. Tyrone. Every county in Ulster has spent a total of God knows how many millions on upgrading all their county grounds, and we're left with Clones to host provincial finals, Breffni Park in Cavan to host neutral games and Government hand outs for a brand new spanking state of the art stadium.

In Leinster you've the same problem, except you have one exceptional stadium in Croke Park, and still we've grounds like Port Laoise crying out for games and kips like Navan and Drogheda. Louth can't get a home game unless it's against Carlow or somebody. The whole things a joke.

Some very fine stadia throughout the country, some far too fine for what they do, and a severe lack of 4/5 proper stadia strategically dispersed throughout the country.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

K-9 wrote: »

Connacht has nice grounds in Castlebar and Salthill, with Hyde Park looking for redevelopment for some strange reason. Markievicz Park in Sligo and the ground in Carrick on Shannon just spent €100's of thousands on upgrading their grounds.

Whats strange about that? Of course they'd be looking for redevelopment, with the change to capacities, the ground has lost the right to host Connacht Finals which were a major boost to the coffers in an era where the county team haven't been doing well. Having said all that, McHale Park and Pearse Stadium are 2 fine grounds and there really isn't a need to redevelop the Hyde right now with the crowds Roscommon are pulling for games, much and all as I'd like to see it happen.

K-9

deccurley wrote: »

Whats strange about that? Of course they'd be looking for redevelopment, with the change to capacities, the ground has lost the right to host Connacht Finals which were a major boost to the coffers in an era where the county team haven't been doing well. Having said all that, McHale Park and Pearse Stadium are 2 fine grounds and there really isn't a need to redevelop the Hyde right now with the crowds Roscommon are pulling for games, much and all as I'd like to see it happen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not singling out any county. Eugene McGee wrote a good piece about it in the Indo todayhere. I'm not blaming any particular county, the GAA have encouraged it, people are willing to put in the time and effort to fund raise for it and want decent facilities, and that's a credit to them.

Without going too off topic, it's at times like this one, it shows how wasteful some of that spending was, Munster a better example than Connacht.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

K-9 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not singling out any county. Eugene McGee wrote a good piece about it in the Indo todayhere. I'm not blaming any particular county, the GAA have encouraged it, people are willing to put in the time and effort to fund raise for it and want decent facilities, and that's a credit to them.

Without going too off topic, it's at times like this one, it shows how wasteful some of that spending was, Munster a better example than Connacht.

All I'm saying is that its obviously going to be any county's prerogative to better their own patch, regardless of how needless that improvement is regarded from the outside.

McGee raises some fair points, Kildare, Waterford and Louth all deserve better stadiums, the fact that Waterford City, in particular, doesn't have a proper ground is a joke.

Mountainlad

Boom__Boom wrote: »

1,477,294 tickets total sold in New Zealand.
They had 133,000 overseas visitors.
Ireland's bid has a supposed forecast figure of 377,000 overseas visitors.
Still would require a whole lot of tickets sold to the natives. How many tickets would the locals buy at prices similar to the prices for England 2015?

I think your bang on asking the important questions here about the viability of it. We can't afford to run a competition like this at a loss.

But at the same time I'd love to see a competition like this held in the Country. It's always a shame to think that we could never host major international sporting competitions so this opportunity would be fantastic.

Just on that one point, do you know how many tickets those international visitors bought collectively in NZ? I would have thought if you made the effort of travelling to the country you'd go to more than one game? I dunno how many on average the tourists would go see but if it was 3-4 then you have at least 1 million sold already. Given it's an historic first I'd say all of Irelands games would be sellout, that would have you well on your way to the 1.5million I would have thought

Boom__Boom

Mountainlad wrote: »

Just on that one point, do you know how many tickets those international visitors bought collectively in NZ?

No idea but I'd agree that the visitors probably are unlikely to travel for just one match.

However as regards these overseas visitors I'd be of the opinion that the World Cup would have a negative affect on the numbers travelling for the 6th Nations in the year before and the year after the World Cup.

I'd imagine that a high percentage of the rugby supporters from England, Wales, Scotland, France and Italy who would normally travel over for a 6 Nations in the season before and after wouldn't bother with the 6 Nations and would come for the World Cup instead. So this would help the Rugby World Cup but have a negative effect on the 6 Nations in terms of tourism/sales of tickets.

Will this knock-on effect be included in any viability study?

RoyalCelt

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Compare that to here, where the GAA is the owner of all the stadiums and that without the GAA's co-operation the bid is completely dead in the water, I can see the IRFU/rugby authorities having to fork over a serious chunk of change to use the various stadiums. As such as a GAA fan I can see it being a positive for the GAA - they will be getting a set fee and it won't matter to the GAA whether 5,000 or 50,000 turn up for matches.

However as a tax-payer, I'm very wary of the government being asked to contribute tax-payers money on the basis of very airy-fairy "it will be good for the country/the economy/tourism" down the line. I could easily see some government minister signing away millions of tax-payer money because they got decent seats in the Aviva for a few 6 nations games on the basis of very little hard evidence but on simple castles-in-the-air build-it-and-they-will-come PR guff from the IRFU knowing that when the time comes to actually foot the bill they would be long gone from office.

At least if the GAA get a ton of cash 90% of it goes into paying Irish people to upgrade stadiums used by Irish people and the rest (of the 90%) goes straight to the clubs and counties around this island.

So if the GAA makes say 50 million from this and the tournament loses 30 million over-all the net effect is still good.

Pdiddy1604

bamboozling wrote: »

We're having a debate over on the Rugby forum about Ireland hosting the 2023 Rugby World Cup. Obviously GAA stadiums would have to be used with the 5 I was looking at
Croker,
Semple Stadium in Thurles at 53,000
McHale Park in Castlebar 42,000
Pearce stadium in Galway 34,000.
Páirci Úi Caoimh in Cork 60,000 planned expansion
along with Ravenhill, RDS, Aviva, Thomond, Musgrave and Windsor Park..

What I want to know is how you fans would feel about such a move. The inter county season would need to start a month earlier and be finished by the end of August so that's no exactly a cataclismic change. Would you like to see it happen or would you be against it and why. Would the authorities make it happen or have we still not come that far yet. Would palms need to be greased to the tune of maybe 10 million.

I'm only a casual follower of GAA and would like to know what the hard core GAA fan would feel of such a move. Floor is open.

I've no problem with the GAA letting their grounds to be used for the World Cup but as far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be 3 venues in Dublin and especially not 2 in walking distance of each other. The RDS is not among the top 15 stadiums in the country and shouldn't be considered as a venue. The fact that its not able to accommodate Leinster's bigger fixtures should say it all.

The Lost Sheep

Pdiddy1604 wrote: »

I've no problem with the GAA letting their grounds to be used for the World Cup but as far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be 3 venues in Dublin and especially not 2 in walking distance of each other. The RDS is not among the top 15 stadiums in the country and shouldn't be considered as a venue. The fact that its not able to accommodate Leinster's bigger fixtures should say it all.

Don't see an issue with RDS. There is plans to develop the stadium and it will then def be amongst the top stadiums in the country. 3 stadiums in Dublin would be fine with games spread out across different days,
The fact Leinster don't play their biggest 2/3 games a year there is irrelevant and the size of the RDS would be perfect for the smaller games in the pool stages.

melekalikimaka

Pdiddy1604 wrote: »

I've no problem with the GAA letting their grounds to be used for the World Cup but as far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be 3 venues in Dublin and especially not 2 in walking distance of each other. The RDS is not among the top 15 stadiums in the country and shouldn't be considered as a venue. The fact that its not able to accommodate Leinster's bigger fixtures should say it all.

for the smaller less popular games, I think a central location like RDS is a rugby hub would be better, you aint gonna get 20k travelling to waterford for a Georgia/Spain game... you'd possibly fill the RDS tho

Boom__Boom

RoyalCelt wrote: »

At least if the GAA get a ton of cash 90% of it goes into paying Irish people to upgrade stadiums used by Irish people and the rest (of the 90%) goes straight to the clubs and counties around this island.

So if the GAA makes say 50 million from this and the tournament loses 30 million over-all the net effect is still good.

The English Rugby Union apparently had to promise to pay the IRB £80m to secure the competition. Something like £30m of this is guaranteed by the English government. That's close enough to €100m. I'd imagine the vast majority of that €100m will be going out of England. Looking at those kind of numbers it becomes very hard to see the proposed Irish bid making any sort of economic sense.