Decision to breed Labrador

Eviledna

I hope that the dog experts here could give us some advice. My sister has a 5 month old chocolate lab female who is pedigree. We know she'll be coming into heat in the coming months and she has to make the decision whether to neuter her or breed her in a while when she's mature.

My sister's husband has some experience breeding labs from his youth, but they are looking for advice, essentially a pro vs con of breeding a labrador.

They didn't get her to breed her originally, she is a pet. But as she reaches maturity they are not sure what to do. They are concerned about the increased risk of cancer with breeding her, but would definitely have good homes for her pups to go to.
They wouldn't be breeding her straight away, but would love some advice from those who have been through this before, as they are responsible pet owners and love their pet.

To breed or not to breed, that is the question!:)

primavera85

if shes not a good working dog or successful show dog
(and i dont mean agricultural or exemption dog shows either, im refering to championship or breed shows)
dont even think about breeding her. too many pet owners breeding sub-standard dogs. place is flooded with them.

mymo

Everyone loves their dogs and wants the best for them, and we all like the idea of a little pup from our dog, that would be just the same as our wonderful much loved pet, but the reality is very different.
She should be an excellent example of the breed, judged by experts (not just someone who breeds or owns the breed), temperament should be excellent as should health.
The cost of the health tests for the dog (eye tests, hipscore, etc) are quite high, add to that the cost of feeding the bitch and raising the pups, vet costs, chipping and registering, and that really adds up if you do it right(and if you don't do it right, it shouldn't be done).
Then there's the time involved in raising the pups, cleaning, trying to find good homes that won't get fed up and send the dog to the pound, and the health risks to the bitch.
I know someone who lost their bitch and 3 of the 5 pups she had(they died one by one over 3 weeks, after the mother died, despite the couple doing everything they could to save them), the other 2 they saved and kept but it cost them over €1000 in vet bills, replacement milk, food etc, and nearly their sanity raising them, to end up with two pups. They were broken hearted losing their bitch and then the pups over the weeks. They will never do it again.
Please consider everything involved, also the benefits of spaying(less risk of certain cancers, etc)


Just to add, be aware she could have 10 or more pups, its the upper end of litter size but possible, people will say they'll take one, but when it comes down to it they often back out. Also what if they get fed up, or can't manage the dog anymore and it gets sent to the pound?
How would they feel about that?

Stella2010

A quick glance at this weeks Buy and Sell alone would answer that question for me personally......
Serious amount of overbreeding of dogs going on in Ireland.
Unless the dog is of high show / working standard and the puppies are booked in advance then no ..

http://www.buyandsell.ie/search/adv_search?search_term=labrador&search%5Bcategory%5D%5Bid%5D=188&search_options%5Bprice_min%5D=&search_options%5Bprice_max%5D=&county%5Bid%5D=

Eviledna

Thank you all for the replies so far. Some of you mentioned the increased risks of cancer involved in breeding...does anyone have more information about that?

Also, if she was to spay, what is the best time to do it?

moving_home

She is only 5mths and even if she comes in heat at 9mths that is too young to breed. AFAIK it is recommended that a bitch is at least 2 before having her first litter.
There is a lab down the road from me - unneutered and let have her first litter at 9mths and the poor dog is destroyed. It stunted her growth and everything

dahat

Eviledna wrote: »

Thank you all for the replies so far. Some of you mentioned the increased risks of cancer involved in breeding...does anyone have more information about that?

Also, if she was to spay, what is the best time to do it?

spay at 6 months old.........

cancer is very common is breeding bitches over 7,mammary cancer i believe.

moving_home

Eviledna wrote: »

Thank you all for the replies so far. Some of you mentioned the increased risks of cancer involved in breeding...does anyone have more information about that?

Also, if she was to spay, what is the best time to do it?

Most vets recommend spaying at 6mths to reduce risk of cancer. my pup was done at 6mths and bounced back within a day.

mymo

Its not from having a litter, more from not spaying as far as I know.
Higher risk of certain cancers, mammary being one.
Best time to spay depends on who you ask, most vets recommend early, before first heat, some say wait until the dog matures, 18months or so.
It's really best ask the vet and see what they say, get all the facts.
I got my girl done at 6months, as she came into heat early (5 months, vet warmed there was an increased risk of shorter heat cycles and higher risk of cancers)and where I live there are many roaming dogs, I had them waiting at the gate and my daughter couldn't go out as the dogs chased her when they smelt the bitch off her. I had to go out into the back garden with the dog to make sure a dog didn't get in while she was toileting.
I couldn't even walk my male dog as the dogs could smell the bitch off him.

Wisco

The risk of cancer - at least mammary tumours- increases with each heat as it has to do with hormones. Spay before the first season and it's almost 100% certain to prevent that type of cancer, the risk goes up a bit with the first 2 or 3 seasons. Obviously, because the uterus and ovaries are removed, you also prevent uterine and ovarian cancer, along with preventing pyometras, which is a condition where the uterus becomes infected (more common in middle aged to older bitches). Most of the time, surgery is required to resolve pyometras, and the bitch would be a higher surgical risk as well as she will be pretty sick by the time the condition is diagnosed in most cases.
But overall, look at all the ads for pups in the paper, donedeal, whatever. There are plenty of pups out there and plenty more are put to sleep every year becuase they get surrendered to the pound. So unless you're willing to do all the veterinary pre-mating/suitability checks, and have homes lined up even before breeding, please, please, please, consider spaying her.

boomerang

My biggest worry with breeding her is her hips - Labs are so prone to hip dysplasia and arthritis now. You'd really want to have her parents' hip scores and have her hip scored herself when she's fully grown before you make any decision. One of the reasons they say it's better to wait until the bitch is at least two before breeding from her is that by then any hereditary diseases will begin to show... Definitely don't breed her for another 18 months, if you do go down the breeding road.

But to be honest OP, it's a big ordeal for the dog (labour lasts up to two days!) and the country is flooded with unwanted Labradors - the pounds and rescues really are full of them. Unless you have good homes lined up for a litter that could be up to seven pups or more, then I'd just enjoy her and leave well enough alone - have her spayed soon.

TooManyDogs

Hi OP, all advise given is good, and my opinion would be to spay her and enjoy her. If you do decide to breed her I'd advise to make sure you have at least 14 or 15 homes lined up, she'll likely have 7 or 8 pups and it's amazing how many people who tell you they'll take a pup then change their mind when the pup is actually born. The rescue I volunteer with is finding it very hard to home lab or lab x pups never mind adult dogs, and most of them end up going to lab rescue charities in the UK. At the moment in Ireland the dogs getting homes quickly are small dogs, not as many people looking for larger dogs.

dvet

I'm a vet and personally would spay & neuter all of my dogs at 6 months, no question asked. Not only does it help to prevent the sad situation of unwanted dogs, the health benefits are huge. (The risk of mammary cancer increases with every heat that a bitch has, as well as with pregnancy...and pyometra is one of most common causes of death for older unspayed bitches - 2 great reasons to spay ASAP!)

By the way, thanks to the OP for bringing this up. All bitch owners should read this thread - some really good advice has been given here.

lrushe

If they are looking to breed their bitch I would start by enrolling her some ring craft classes as the first port of call would be to start showing her to see if she is a good example of her breed as there is no need to breed unless you are adding something exceptional to a breed, I think most of us like to believe our dogs are perfect but putting them up against their peers will confirm this.:)
Then when the bitch is fully grown (2 years) I would get her hips and elbows scored to make sure she wasn't going to pass on any genetic problems to her pups. I would also have her eyes and heart examined too for the same reasons.
Assuming all is going well showing and all health test are clear, I would start looking for a suitable stud to complament the bitch who had also been shown or worked and had the relevant health clearance.
Personally I find it easier to spay and enjoy my dogs for what they are but wouldn't condemn anyone for breeding if they are willing to do it responsibly and I believe doing the above is the responible route to take when breeding, just my opinion!

Deeanimallover

Dont breed - get her spayed! You only have to look at all those ads on donedeal etc to see the amount of pups on offer - also Im sure you will notice that the price of them seems to have come down which is an indication that people are not buying as much as they were a couple of years ago - and thank god for that!

Ive come across a few people the last couple of months trying to "get rid" of puppies - one guy had 3 chocolate lab pups and was giving them away free as he had hard enough time charging for them - thankfully he saw sense and is getting his dog spayed.

Another guy I heard of was going around asking people to take a lab pup or else "he would have no option but to drown her" I really hope he wasnt serious :mad:

Also the amount of pedigree pups being handed in to shelters coz the owners cant afford to look after them as they are stuck with them.

And last but not least surely the health benefits alone would be enough of a reason to get her spayed

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

If they are looking to breed their bitch I would start by enrolling her some ring craft classes as the first port of call would be to start showing her to see if she is a good example of her breed as there is no need to breed unless you are adding something exceptional to a breed, I think most of us like to believe our dogs are perfect but putting them up against their peers will confirm this.:)

Normally I would totally agree with you, but with a working breed such as the lab, I don't think that the dog needs to be judged by a show judge to see if its a good example of the breed. Show labs and working labs are very different to each other. I do agree that the dog should be a good example of the breed though, whether its from the show or working side of the breed.

I love labs, but unfortunately they do get dumped in their masses every year, so I would recommend that you spay her and save yourself the heartache of trying to find great homes for your pups.

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

Normally I would totally agree with you, but with a working breed such as the lab, I don't think that the dog needs to be judged by a show judge to see if its a good example of the breed. Show labs and working labs are very different to each other. I do agree that the dog should be a good example of the breed though, whether its from the show or working side of the breed.

I do agree and personally I like a mix of working and confirmation titles on a working breed, however as the OP seemed new to the world of breeding so I was trying to make the steps as simplistic as possible

Xiney

I have a labrador.

He was found by the side of the road at four months of age.

This is what he looked like back then:




Trust me - the world (particularly Ireland) does not need any more labrador breeders right now, there are already enough idiots dumping puppies they decide they don't actually want.

Eviledna

Oh Xiney, he's gorgeous! How could anyone abandon him?

Thank you so much everyone for your input and advice, it has really opened my eyes to the complexities of breeding and alot of the cons (very few pros really!).

It's given the folks alot to think about and they too say thanks for all the advice.

When you get a beautiful bitch pup I guess it's anthropomorphic to consider breeding before you make the decision on spaying. If it were a human child, we'd think "oh itsn't my creation just the perfect child, and she too will one day have beautiful, intelligent children". To "steralize" (how we'd term it) the pup seems to be almost cruel, and for women we naturally equate it with a hysterectomy, which has many negative connotations.

However it's clear that it is only kind to the pup to spay her, despite our natural instincts. Perhaps there is a factor of human qualities projected upon dogs that has us in this situation of too many pups, too few homes?

scudzilla

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

All the advice here applies to the OP's dog and labs in general, I think the reasons not to breed her have been clearly explained and no-one has been pretentious about it.

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

How is it pretentious? Can I ask why you want to breed her? What hereditary problems do Boxers have? Will you get all the health checks done?

ppink

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

All the advice here applies to the OPs dog and labs in generally, I think the reasons not to breed her have been clearly explained and no-one has been pretentious about it.

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

friend of mine told me she was doing the same with her rottweiler, allegedly it makes the female dog calmer. sounds like a wives tale to me as i cannot find any scientific proof of that.

scudzilla

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

All the advice here applies to the OPs dog and labs in generally, I think the reasons not to breed her have been clearly explained and no-one has been pretentious about it.

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

ISDW wrote: »

How is it pretentious? Can I ask why you want to breed her? What hereditary problems do Boxers have? Will you get all the health checks done?

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

ppink

scudzilla wrote: »

We have a 12month old Boxer, KC registered

We will be letting her have a litter when she's 2 1/2 - 3yrs old, why all the negativity about breeding?

Seems some real pretentious people here lately with the "OOOOOH, if she's not a champion or a show dog don't breed her"

We're letting her have 1 litter then will be getting her spayed and thats that

Reading this I did think there was anything pretentious. It can seem so at times i think but the advice here was twofold first being the health of the dog and second to preserve the breed, which is ligitimate or else in 50 years it will be all mutts.

dvet wrote: »

I'm a vet and personally would spay & neuter all of my dogs at 6 months, no question asked. Not only does it help to prevent the sad situation of unwanted dogs, the health benefits are huge. (The risk of mammary cancer increases with every heat that a bitch has, as well as with pregnancy...and pyometra is one of most common causes of death for older unspayed bitches - 2 great reasons to spay ASAP!)

By the way, thanks to the OP for bringing this up. All bitch owners should read this thread - some really good advice has been given here.

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

Fair enough, you have clearly made an informed decision.

ppink

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

Is there much point in getting involved on a discussion forum then? .

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

ppink wrote: »

Is there much point in getting involved on a discussion forum then? .

Exactly what I was going to ask, why post it in a discussion forum, if you don't want to discuss it?

Miss Lockhart

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Can I ask you why you are going to have your boxer spayed after the first litter? Genuinely curious as I have always wondered what the reasoning was behind this particular line of thinking?

Obviously I can't answer for scudzilla, and maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the idea of spaying after the first litter was fairly straightforward...

Although people who wish their bitch to have pups are willing to take the necessary steps to ensure she does not mate during heat, endure the inconvenience of trying to walk a bitch in heat etc until she is the right age for breeding - once the pups have arrived and they are sure that is all they want, then they are happier to go with the convenience spaying provides and the obvious health benefits such as no pyometra risk.

Again, maybe I'm missing something and it's more complicated than that.

lrushe

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here

Hey I get 'flamed' all the time, but I still let my opinion stand up and be counted. You know the old saying "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

scudzilla

Ok, here goes

We want to breed our dog, when we first got her we didn't know if we would or not, but over the last 12 months she has proved perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc.

Of course we'll get her a full health check before we do anything and if anything is abnormal then we won;t go through with it.

3 very close friends of ours have already said they want a pup, and they are 'doggy' people. We will also keep one for ourself.

When she's had the pups we will get her spayed as 1 litter will be fine.

She's KC registered, will find a stud dog that is also KC, maybe even go across to the UK for a UK Kennel club stud dog