Decision to breed Labrador

Cherry Blossom

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Obviously I can't answer for scudzilla, and maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought the idea of spaying after the first litter was fairly straightforward...

Although people who wish their bitch to have pups are willing to take the necessary steps to ensure she does not mate during heat, endure the inconvenience of trying to walk a bitch in heat etc until she is the right age for breeding - once the pups have arrived and they are sure that is all they want, then they are happier to go with the convenience spaying provides and the obvious health benefits such as no pyometra risk.

Again, maybe I'm missing something and it's more complicated than that.

Thanks for clarifying this, yes I did think there might be something more complicated which is why I asked. Personally I think if I owned a breeding bitch I would want to see how the progeny turned out before I would make the decision that I wouldn't breed her again rather than make that decision years in advance.

Cherry Blossom

I'm not sure why you thought you would get flamed for that

ISDW

scudzilla wrote: »

Ok, here goes

We want to breed our dog, when we first got her we didn't know if we would or not, but over the last 12 months she has proved perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc.

Of course we'll get her a full health check before we do anything and if anything is abnormal then we won;t go through with it.

3 very close friends of ours have already said they want a pup, and they are 'doggy' people. We will also keep one for ourself.

When she's had the pups we will get her spayed as 1 litter will be fine.

She's KC registered, will find a stud dog that is also KC, maybe even go across to the UK for a UK Kennel club stud dog

OK, you see to me, thats responsible breeding, you are going to wait until she is mature enough, you will get all the relevant health tests done, and you are already looking for homes. Nothing wrong with that at all, I'm sure that you will also have puppy contracts that they have to come back to you if there are any problems throughout their lives. Trust me, once you raise those puppies for 8 weeks or more, you will insist on the contracts, no way is one of your babies going to have a harsh life:D

Thank you for replying.

Deeanimallover

scudzilla wrote: »

3 very close friends of ours have already said they want a pup, and they are 'doggy' people. We will also keep one for ourself.

How do you know they are going to wait until yours has a litter? Lots of people will say they want a pup but when the reality comes then they change their minds. Also what about the other pups in the litter, will you be prepared to keep on 2 or 3 extra puppies if you cant get a home for them? So you could end up with 4 or 5 dogs.

I hope I dont sound prententious but Im just being straight and pointing out the obvious.

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

How do you know they are going to wait until yours has a litter? Lots of people will say they want a pup but when the reality comes then they change their minds. Also what about the other pups in the litter, will you be prepared to keep on 2 or 3 extra puppies if you cant get a home for them? So you could end up with 4 or 5 dogs.

I hope I dont sound prententious but Im just being straight and pointing out the obvious.

Thats absolutely fine, I get what you're saying, but the advice on here is always to show the dog, to see if its a fine example before breeding. So, if scudzilla showed the dog a few times, and got told it was a good example, how would anything be any different? If she/he is going to do all the relevant health checks for the breed and is waiting until the bitch is mature, and is looking properly for a stud dog, is it any different to showing it first and then doing all these things? Which, seems to be accepted as fine by most people on here.

Yes, I know that there is a huge problem with dumped dogs, including pedigree, IKC registered dogs, but people like a particular breed, so they will always buy that breed of dog, and is it not better that they can get a pup from health tested parents, and where it has been born in a loving family home, rather than from a puppy farm?

I know that as I run a rescue my point of view might seem odd, but as I say, people will always want to buy certain breeds, so I just think its better if there are healthy, well adjusted pups out there for them to buy.

Deeanimallover

ISDW wrote: »

Thats absolutely fine, I get what you're saying, but the advice on here is always to show the dog, to see if its a fine example before breeding. So, if scudzilla showed the dog a few times, and got told it was a good example, how would anything be any different? If she/he is going to do all the relevant health checks for the breed and is waiting until the bitch is mature, and is looking properly for a stud dog, is it any different to showing it first and then doing all these things? Which, seems to be accepted as fine by most people on here.

Yes, I know that there is a huge problem with dumped dogs, including pedigree, IKC registered dogs, but people like a particular breed, so they will always buy that breed of dog, and is it not better that they can get a pup from health tested parents, and where it has been born in a loving family home, rather than from a puppy farm?

I know that as I run a rescue my point of view might seem odd, but as I say, people will always want to buy certain breeds, so I just think its better if there are healthy, well adjusted pups out there for them to buy.

Sorry I dont get why you quoted me I was merely pointing out that lots of people will tell you they will take a pup but when the time comes they realise the commitment and change their minds - I didnt say scudzilla shouldnt breed their dog? While I dont really agree with it he/she does seem to know what they are doing but I just found the line about "having 3 people say they want pups" as a little bit naive - no offense scudzilla - but I wouldnt want to be relying on those couple of people - boxers are a very popular breed im sure there are loads of them for sale and those people might get fed up waiting for one of scudzilla's pups and go off and get one somewhere else. But hopefully they have thought about all that!

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

Sorry I dont get why you quoted me

Because I was replying to what you had posted. If Scudzilla had shown the dog a few times, been told it was a good example of the breed, etc, etc, I don't know whether you would have posted the same information? Andreac has used her dog as a stud, she has mentioned this a few times on here, he is a stunning boy, but I don't remember anyone ever saying to her that she and the bitch's owner wouldn't be able to find homes for the pups.

Deeanimallover

ISDW wrote: »

Because I was replying to what you had posted If Scudzilla had shown the dog a few times, been told it was a good example of the breed, etc, etc, I don't know whether you would have posted the same information? Andreac has used her dog as a stud, she has mentioned this a few times on here, he is a stunning boy, but I don't remember anyone ever saying to her that she and the bitch's owner wouldn't be able to find homes for the pups.

I was just offerring scudzilla advice that when people hear the word "puppies" they all want one but when the time comes they may not - thats all!

I wouldnt go breeding a dog just coz 3 people said they will take a puppy and I'll keep one for myself - thats 4 puppies, what about the other 2 or 3 pups the dog might have? I know some people who cant get homes for purebred lab pups and they are giving them away for FREE - if everyone thought or was told their dog is a fine specimen and bred them then we would be in a much worse situation with unwanted pups than we already are.

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

I was just offerring scudzilla advice that when people hear the word "puppies" they all want one but when the time comes they may not - thats all!

I wouldnt go breeding a dog just coz 3 people said they will take a puppy and I'll keep one for myself - thats 4 puppies, what about the other 2 or 3 pups the dog might have? I know some people who cant get homes for purebred lab pups and they are giving them away for FREE - if everyone thought or was told their dog is a fine specimen and bred them then we would be in a much worse situation with unwanted pups than we already are.

I don't think thats why scudzilla said they were going to breed their dog. They have thought about it, think the dog is a good example, will have all the relevant health checks done, and then have one litter. Scudzilla didn't say they were only breeding because 3 people have said they want a pup, at least I didn't read it that way.

But my point still stands, then, do we leave it up to the puppy farmers to breed certain breeds that people want? Or just the people that show their dogs? Would we then end up with all GSDs being roachbacked, because only the ones who do well in shows, to that breed's standard would breed? If a KC registered dog has a great temperament, is a good looking dog, is a healthy dog, and research goes into finding a mate for the litter, then surely those are the kind of puppies that we should be encouraging people to look at?

There are always going to be people who will want to buy a boxer, is it not better to get one in these circumstances, than from someone who keeps the dog in a shed, doesn't do the health checks, and uses the same sire over and over again, who could possibly be related to the dam?

Deeanimallover

ISDW wrote: »

There are always going to be people who will want to buy a boxer, is it not better to get one in these circumstances, than from someone who keeps the dog in a shed, doesn't do the health checks, and uses the same sire over and over again, who could possibly be related to the dam?

Of course it is but Im sure they're are enough legit breeders out there though? I just think in this climate its maybe not the best time to be breeding as people just cant afford to be paying 500 euro for a pup (well some people can) as I said before (and im involved with a rescue too) more and more breeders are finding it very hard to get homes for the pups they have. Reason people buy from puppy farms? They are usually half the price of pups from "proper" breeders so maybe that something that needs to be looked at? Very few people actually give a sh!t about papers or the temperment of the mother etc they just want a good looking dog :rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom

scudzilla wrote: »

Ask all you want but i won't be answering as will only get flamed on here by the 'Do not breed' brigade

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Fair enough, you have clearly made an informed decision.

Apologies for this, it has now become clear why you didn't want to discuss this any further. However that is what the report button is for!

ISDW

Deeanimallover wrote: »

Of course it is but Im sure they're are enough legit breeders out there though? I just think in this climate its maybe not the best time to be breeding as people just cant afford to be paying 500 euro for a pup (well some people can) as I said before (and im involved with a rescue too) more and more breeders are finding it very hard to get homes for the pups they have. Reason people buy from puppy farms? They are usually half the price of pups from "proper" breeders so maybe that something that needs to be looked at? Very few people actually give a sh!t about papers or the temperment of the mother etc they just want a good looking dog :rolleyes:

What do you mean by legit breeders? Do you mean people who show their dogs?

Cherry Blossom

Deeanimallover wrote: »

Of course it is but Im sure they're are enough legit breeders out there though?

Just on this point I have to say that the evidence on this forum is to the contrary. The number of people who post here looking for advice because they are looking for a reputable breeder of whichever breed and find it impossible to find one far outweigh the number of posts from people considering breeding an IKC registered dog. Then you consider how many of those will actually follow up on it any further, this is probably very few.

I didn't see where Scudzilla said he was going to charge €500 for the pups either? For all we know he may give them away to properly vetted 5 star homes.

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

So, if scudzilla showed the dog a few times, and got told it was a good example, how would anything be any different?.

The difference would be instead of it being the owners opinion that their dog is "perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc." it would be fact.
Look most people have a breed that they love, that breed was formed around a standard, an expectation if you will of what was wanted or needed from that breed, so why would you not want to make sure you are continuing that standard after all it is what made the breed you love.
It is my opinion that everyone thinks their dogs is the best as the saying goes "every mother goose thinks their young is a swan" alot of people are afraid that if they show they will be told otherwise, if they weren't then why wouldn't they want to show off this perfect dog they have?
As I have said before if you breed without complying with the breed standard you don't love the breed you just love your own dog.

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

The difference would be instead of it being the owners opinion that their dog is "perfect in every way, her temperament, looks etc." it would be fact.
Look most people have a breed that they love, that breed was formed around a standard, an expection if you will of what was wanted or needed from that breed, so why would you not want to make sure you are continuing that standard after all it is what made the breed you love.
It is my opinion that everyone thinks their dogs is the best as the saying goes "every mother goose thinks their young is a swan" alot of people are afraid that if they show they will be told otherwise, if they weren't then why wouldn't they want to show off this perfect dog they have?
As I have said before if you breed without complying with the breed standard you don't love the breed you just love your own dog.

But breed standards change, why is that, if the breed is perfect as it is? I know that the poor old gsd gets brought up time and time again, but seriously, how on earth did the breed standard change to what we see in show rings today? I would rather have a GSD with a straight back from a working kennel, even if it was white, than a show one with a roach back, that conforms to breed standard.

Why is a white gsd unacceptable in a show ring? If you put two gsds together and they throw a white, I don't understand why there is anything 'wrong' with that dog, its born as its meant to be surely? I understand certain things, in sibes, sometimes a pup with a wooly coat can be born, and shouldn't be bred from, that makes sense, they can overheat more easily while working. But what is wrong with a white GSD?

But also, as I've said on another thread somewhere, someone can have a breed that is fairly uncommon, so shows that dog and gets lot of firsts and possibly bobs, but only because there isn't much competition. But to me, that doesn't mean that it is a great example of the breed at all. Yet, it would be acceptable amongst most people for them to breed that dog. Or, the politics of showing, a dog from a certain kennel may become a champion because of who owns it, how much extra would that add onto the price of a puppy, or to its reputation? but does it really mean anything? Can a lot of the show dogs compete in their field as working dogs if necessary? I'd say no, because show dogs and working dogs from the same breed often are poles apart.

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

But breed standards change, why is that, if the breed is perfect as it is? I know that the poor old gsd gets brought up time and time again, but seriously, how on earth did the breed standard change to what we see in show rings today? I would rather have a GSD with a straight back from a working kennel, even if it was white, than a show one with a roach back, that conforms to breed standard.

Why is a white gsd unacceptable in a show ring? If you put two gsds together and they throw a white, I don't understand why there is anything 'wrong' with that dog, its born as its meant to be surely? I understand certain things, in sibes, sometimes a pup with a wooly coat can be born, and shouldn't be bred from, that makes sense, they can overheat more easily while working. But what is wrong with a white GSD?

But also, as I've said on another thread somewhere, someone can have a breed that is fairly uncommon, so shows that dog and gets lot of firsts and possibly bobs, but only because there isn't much competition. But to me, that doesn't mean that it is a great example of the breed at all. Yet, it would be acceptable amongst most people for them to breed that dog. Or, the politics of showing, a dog from a certain kennel may become a champion because of who owns it, how much extra would that add onto the price of a puppy, or to its reputation? but does it really mean anything? Can a lot of the show dogs compete in their field as working dogs if necessary? I'd say no, because show dogs and working dogs from the same breed often are poles apart.

The GSD is perfect example of where health testing and showing or working should go hand in hand, there is no way those GSD with buckled back legs are passing health tests.
White GSD are unaccepted in the show ring because GSDs were developed to herd sheep on snow covered mountains, white dogs were hard to see and direct as they blended into their background therefore it is considered a fault.
Breeds have to start somewhere in the show ring, if it is a rare breed and a dog wins alot of titles because there aren't that many representations for that breed then it is the best example of the breed available at the time. A responsible breeder will then try to build on that foundation by sourcing a stud or bitch that will compliment the faults their dog might have, sourcing genes internationally if necessary and try to produce a next generation that is as close to the breed standard as possible. No dog is ever going to match 100% to the breed standard, it is something to strive towards. That said Labs and Boxers don't fall into that category, there are plenty of specimens to pit their dogs against to prove they should be breed from so really that is a moot point in this particular thread.
The breeder of one of my dogs runs a small operation, he owns and shows just 3 dogs yet he placed well in Crufts this year, by your logic he shouldn't have had a chance because of show politics and the fact that he is not a big kennels or widely known, yet he did.
One thing I will agree on though is the mix of working and confirmation titles, I like to know a dog can work as well as look good. When my Dad bred GSD (20+ years ago) his dogs had a mix of obedience, agiltiy and confirmation titles, many imported from Germany where they take their dogs health v.seriously and I think by far this is the best way forward in breeding dogs. His dogs not only looked like what a GSD should but they were fit to work.
Like I said before I don't condemn anyone from breeding but if you are going to breed then show that you are going to add something special to the current population of dogs out there, if not there is no need for anyone to breed at all.

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

The GSD is perfect example of where health testing and showing or working should go hand in hand, there is no way those GSD with buckled back legs are passing health tests.
White GSD are unaccepted in the show ring because GSDs were developed to herd sheep on snow covered mountains, white dogs were hard to see and direct as they blended into their background therefore it is considered a fault.
Breeds have to start somewhere in the show ring, if it is a rare breed and a dog wins alot of titles because there aren't that many representations for that breed then it is the best example of the breed available at the time. A responsible breeder will then try to build on that foundation by sourcing a stud or bitch that will compliment the faults their dog might have, sourcing genes internationally if necessary and try to produce a next generation that is as close to the breed standard as possible. No dog is ever going to match 100% to the breed standard, it is something to strive towards. That said Labs and Boxers don't fall into that category, there are plenty of specimens to pit their dogs against to prove they should be breed from so really that is a moot point in this particular thread.
The breeder of one of my dogs runs a small operation, he owns and shows just 3 dogs yet he placed well in Crufts this year, by your logic he shouldn't have had a chance because of show politics and the fact that he is not a big kennels or widely known, yet he did.
One thing I will agree on though is the mix of working and confirmation titles, I like to know a dog can work as well as look good. When my Dad bred GSD (20+ years ago) his dogs had a mix of obedience, agiltiy and confirmation titles, many imported from Germany where they take their dogs health v.seriously and I think by far this is the best way forward in breeding dogs. His dogs not only looked like what a GSD should but they were fit to work.
Like I said before I don't condemn anyone from breeding but if you are going to breed then show that you are going to add something special to the current population of dogs out there, if not there is no need for anyone to breed at all.

Do you know, after I posted that I thought about the snow and the white sheep, and the dog blending in:D

No, I didn't say that someone with a small, not very well known kennel couldn't do well, in fact, maybe not being that well known would help. I've never shown, so I could be way off the mark, I'm just going on what I hear people saying at shows. The breed standards are subjective anyway aren't they? I've heard people say that theres no point in them being there on a particular day when they see who the judge is, and I also know people who have entered a show, and then not bothered travelling when they hear who the judge is. Not because of any politics, but because they know what 'type' of dog that judge prefers, and their dog isn't it. Yet their dog will conform to breed standard.

Just something you said earlier, I don't think that all of my dogs are the best, I love them all, but I know that they have faults. One of mine is a fantastic working dog, but is too big for the breed standard, and his tail curls too much. Now I'm not that worried about his size, because comparing him with the older standards, he would probably have been okay, but his tailset may indicate an issue with his back or hips, so I totally understand that part of the standard, and in fact when I got him hipscored it was very bad, so he was neutered straight away. So I do appreciate certain aspects of breed standards, but I just think that we have to bear in mind who sets the standards, and amends them.

Its an interesting discussion, and I'm sure we could have a very animated evening over a couple of pints batting it back and forth;)

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

Do you know, after I posted that I thought about the snow and the white sheep, and the dog blending in:D

No, I didn't say that someone with a small, not very well known kennel couldn't do well, in fact, maybe not being that well known would help. I've never shown, so I could be way off the mark, I'm just going on what I hear people saying at shows. The breed standards are subjective anyway aren't they? I've heard people say that theres no point in them being there on a particular day when they see who the judge is, and I also know people who have entered a show, and then not bothered travelling when they hear who the judge is. Not because of any politics, but because they know what 'type' of dog that judge prefers, and their dog isn't it. Yet their dog will conform to breed standard.

Just something you said earlier, I don't think that all of my dogs are the best, I love them all, but I know that they have faults. One of mine is a fantastic working dog, but is too big for the breed standard, and his tail curls too much. Now I'm not that worried about his size, because comparing him with the older standards, he would probably have been okay, but his tailset may indicate an issue with his back or hips, so I totally understand that part of the standard, and in fact when I got him hipscored it was very bad, so he was neutered straight away. So I do appreciate certain aspects of breed standards, but I just think that we have to bear in mind who sets the standards, and amends them.

Its an interesting discussion, and I'm sure we could have a very animated evening over a couple of pints batting it back and forth;)

It's true judges do have their preferred 'type' but in order for a dogs to become a champion he/she must earn I think it's 40 Green Star points under 3-4 different judges depending on the shows (if my memory serves me), if a dog is picked out to this degree by different judges, to me, that would suggest a common agreement that the dog merits the titles it wins.

It's not that I think you yourself think your dogs are perfect, in reality our views aren't miles apart, but some people can't see the wood for the trees therefore I think there should be a yard stick to measure what perfection is and that's where the breed standard comes in, it's something to strive for but it should not foresake the health of the dog.

Indeed myself I have 2 pedigree dogs who I think are beautiful and have the best personalities. I've had people ask for pups from them but I know myself they don't come next to near their breed standard so they have been spayed and neutered. Do I think they are any less of a dog because of that, less beautiful, less of a joy to be around, less worthy of being my pet, absolutely not, I just believe they shouldn't be bred from.

If by that I sound pretentious, well then I guess that's just the hat I'll have to wear.

By the way mines a tall, frothy Budweiser if you're buyin'

andreac

Hey Irushe, the system is changed now. Its 7 Green Stars now under 7 different judges with 1 being one after the dog is 15 months old.

Some people say this system is easy to make up champions esp in lower numerical breeds but in the higher number breeds like boxers, rotties etc its quite hard, so i count myself very lucky to have made up a champion with my first rottie:D

Your posts are fantastic by the way, very knowledgeable and put across very well.:)

lrushe

andreac wrote: »

Hey Irushe, the system is changed now. Its 7 Green Stars now under 7 different judges with 1 being one after the dog is 15 months old.

Ahhh I see, I haven't been around a show ring in about 15 years so I guess I'm a bit out of date
Hoped to get back into it again with my Rottie girl but time restraints have prevented me so far, if I haven't got to it by next July I'll just spay her and concentrate on some fun agility instead.
I take my hat off to anyone who does get their dog their championship, it takes real hard work and committment.

Deeanimallover

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I didn't see where Scudzilla said he was going to charge €500 for the pups either? For all we know he may give them away to properly vetted 5 star homes.

He didnt. I was just saying in general and yes he may want to just give them away but my point yet again is there is too many pups being born, purebred or otherwise and not enough homes for them.

portgirl123

this is of topic but why cant a dog be spayed when there been showing?

andreac

portgirl123 wrote: »

this is of topic but why cant a dog be spayed when there been showing?

No they cant, they have to be entire, both dogs and bitches, but obviously it would be easy enough to show a spayed bitch as you cant tell unless you went looking for a scar.
Males testicles are checked in the ring when they are being shown.

siobhano

Hi as someone who has worked in rescue for over 20 years and in a vet clinic since 1989 let me tell you the reality is,
A, she will have to have at least 4 heat cycles as the recommended breeding age is 2+ that means blood for 7-10 days and then the chance to become pregnant until day 19-21 depending on breed of dog
B Breeders never tell you about the bad things that happened, the still born's the c-sections, the deformities etc
C A good breeder will take back the pups if things don't work out, are you planning to do this.
The dogs health, is really important, you can stop conditions such as pyometra, which can kill an un-spayed female
I hope this helps,you make the right decision

lrushe

portgirl123 wrote: »

this is of topic but why cant a dog be spayed when there been showing?

The point of showing is to prove that your dog comes as close to the breed standard as possible which includes dogs who can breed, infertility would be a fault.