who is right?

skipz

I was down at my mothers site on saturday to shoot a few targets with my air rifle when this fella pulled up into the site and gave me a right auld verbal about shooting on club land. At one point he was saying he'd get my gun taken off me.:rolleyes:
I let him go on for a while and then told him he had no right telling me i could not shoot on this land as its my mothers.
He was a complete dick about the whole thing and stormed off in his car.
I went home then and went back a couple hours later and found a sign saying it was land used for that club right next to the enterance of the site.
The land is clearly fenced off from the other fields and i was not shooting outside the fenced area, had he any right in doing this?

Sparks

Unless your mother has signed over the shooting rights exclusively to the club, no.

However, if you're shooting targets with an air rifle and you're not on an authorised range, you're in breach of the Firearms Acts as well.

skipz

Yeah no shooting rights signed over.
Jesus christ, what can you shoot with a air rifle in this country? Its a joke the laws regarding air rifles in Ireland.

Sparks

skipz wrote: »

Yeah no shooting rights signed over.

Then he's in the wrong. Only the owner of the shooting rights can make demands like his.

Jesus christ, what can you shoot with a air rifle in this country? Its a joke the laws regarding air rifles in Ireland.

It's not just air rifles; it's any rifle or pistol, airguns included.

who the fug

Sparks wrote: »

Then he's in the wrong. Only the owner of the shooting rights can make demands like his.

Slightly OT

What about deeds like our farm use to have, which was the Owner of the Property and the Earl of such and such in South Kerry had the shooting & fishing rights

Sparks

I seem to remember that there was some general reclaimation of the shooting rights in such cases a while back, but you'd want to check. This was the thread in question, the idea was that unless the shooting rights were exercised once every 12 years, they reverted to the landowner. But you really need to check with a solicitor about your specific case.

meathshooter1

I had this happen to me a few years back,was on private land that a friend of mine owns and was approached by a man asking me what the f*** did I think I was doing.he went on to say that this was gun club land and get off it, I knew for certain it wasn't.I told this man that IM going nowhere he said he would call the garda I told him to call who he wanted and the lads from the club wont be happy,at that point I asked him his name and he was reluctant to give it but after giving mine I got it out of him and told him I would be speaking to the land owner which I gave a bell to let him know what happened and the name of the chap he wasn't happy.About 30min latter got a call back from the owner who at this point was fuming he got a visit from the garda about me saying that I was pouching pheasants and trespassing he promptly put them straight that I was the one the had 100% permission to be on his lands and no gun club was allowed on his lands.anyway rang the garda myself asked them what happened they rang to say a man with a unlicensed firearm namely me was shooting on there lands and that it was all sorted and that I was fully within my rights.also as far as I know you can still zero you rifle on private lands but target shooting is a no no and can only be done on authorised range.some of these gun clubs think they own the place also the fella who approched me is now no longer a member.

landkeeper

the two sons of our next door neighbour who were away from home for a few years at college were home one christmas , they went out for a shot with the family lab across their own farm and were approached by two men who read the riot act fumed and shouted this and that told them they were shooting gun club land and that they had no right etc etc etc
the two lads then explained who they were and told the two to get the f88k of their farm and not to come back them or any other members of the club who supposedly had the land as club land i'd love to have been a fly on the wall at the next club meeting :cool:

meathstevie

And so the story of the disorganised shambles which is shooting in Ireland carries on.....

Tackleberry.

meathstevie wrote: »

And so the story of the disorganised shambles which is shooting in Ireland carries on.....

A bit of savvy goes a LONG WAY...........

tfox

Sad point that a lot of gun club members seem to miss is that although they may have permission they very very rarely have sole shooting rights !! I know of a couple of Dublin lads that moved down here few years back and joined the local club. When they asked where can they go they got the almost standard reply of " Anywhere you want " !! They dont do themselves any favours !!

homerhop

We have to give every farmer who gave us permission a list of members in our club. If they see names they are not familar with we are asked who they are and where exactly they are living. Before the start of every season we have a meeting to discuss the usual posters, sanctuarys etc and then the chairman will have been in contact with every farmer to see who have given permission to others to shoot their lands. That way we are all aware of what farms we can expect to meet others on and what farms that have given total shooting permission to the club.
I dont know about other clubs around the country but the farmers in my area take an intrest in our club and are very much aware of any release programes we are involved in, and although some of them are not over keen of lads shooting they are quiet clear in stating that our club posters their land and only club members are allowed on it during the season. When they see people they dont know some of the club members will be informed within half an hour that lads have been shooting on their lands.

tfox

homerhop wrote: »

We have to give every farmer who gave us permission a list of members in our club. If they see names they are not familar with we are asked who they are and where exactly they are living. Before the start of every season we have a meeting to discuss the usual posters, sanctuarys etc and then the chairman will have been in contact with every farmer to see who have given permission to others to shoot their lands. That way we are all aware of what farms we can expect to meet others on and what farms that have given total shooting permission to the club.
I dont know about other clubs around the country but the farmers in my area take an intrest in our club and are very much aware of any release programes we are involved in, and although some of them are not over keen of lads shooting they are quiet clear in stating that our club posters their land and only club members are allowed on it during the season. When they see people they dont know some of the club members will be informed within half an hour that lads have been shooting on their lands.

Sounds like a well run club, wish they were all like that :-)

homerhop

God at times i wonder, but at the end of the day we as a club have to be realistic and are very much aware that we only have permission to shoot on the lands and that any inappropriate actions by club members will have a knock on effect and lads do get a bollicking if they step out of bounds. Thankfully we have a chairman who is a die hard shooting man who is a good driving force in the club and gets on well with the majority of land owners. When run right a club can have a good release programe and good shooting as long as members dont blaggard it.

No6

If a landowner has the shooting rights of their lands there is no mention made of it on the folio, if they do not have them it is mentioned on the folio. A lot of land which was formerly land comission may not have sporting (shooting) or fishing rights. I believe the landowners can get them back if the rights have not been excercised within the last 12 years but they have to apply to the land registry to do this. It therefore also is reasonable to assume that unless xyz gun club is shown on a folio as having the shooting rights then then xyz gun club dosn't have exclusive rights to shoot on it as the holder of the sporting rights (normally the owner) may have given their permission to others!!

cavan shooter

I have been a long standing member of a couple of gun clubs, but i also have permission to shoot on Farmers land that I know. There is one farmer who will allow anyone to hunt his land with permission, gun club or other once youve manners.

Two years ago I was verbally hasseled by members of a gun club which I am in but these lads never turn up at meetings etc:mad:

i dont think its the gun club per sae I think its individuals and in all walks of life you will find ar$e holes

skipz

cavan shooter wrote: »

i dont think its the gun club per sae I think its individuals and in all walks of life you will find ar$e holes

Yeah i agree 100% with you, that lad that gave out to me was just being a prick. I know a few lads in the club he's from and they would have handled the situation a lot better then him.

meathshooter1

+ 1 on that but you will always get one gobs$$$e

pedroeibar1

I cannot find the relevant act to see what constitutes a range, but IMO a guy firing an air rifle at a target in his own field is not likely to be prosecuted (unless he was shooting carelessly - where he would be open to charges on ‘ the dangerous discharge of a firearm’)

As for shooting rights, the position is very simple: to be legally sure of a right to shoot over a particular farm, you need to check for that farm. When the old estates were broken up, some farms were transferred with sporting rights(SRs), others were not. In some cases the retention of the SRs went across the board, in others it was on a farm-by-farm basis.

Even those who should know better have fallen foul of the law – Coillte has had to back off on two areas I know of in Co. Kerry, where they purported to lease the forestry shooting but did not own the SRs.

If a farmer has the SRs he can give a permission or as many of them as he likes. Best to get it in writing – if another person has it in writing, you would be in an inferior position without similar.

I and a friend shoot (snipe & woodcock) over some land owned by farmer friends (my mate does some lamping for them) but they do not have the SRs. The owner of the SRs (over several thousand acres) does not shoot, but this season has leased them to an outsider. My mate recently was ‘found on’ and has already received a solicitor’s letter telling him he will be prosecuted for poaching should he be caught again.
P.

tfox

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I cannot find the relevant act to see what constitutes a range, but IMO a guy firing an air rifle at a target in his own field is not likely to be prosecuted (unless he was shooting carelessly - where he would be open to charges on ‘ the dangerous discharge of a firearm’)

As for shooting rights, the position is very simple: to be legally sure of a right to shoot over a particular farm, you need to check for that farm. When the old estates were broken up, some farms were transferred with sporting rights(SRs), others were not. In some cases the retention of the SRs went across the board, in others it was on a farm-by-farm basis.

Even those who should know better have fallen foul of the law – Coillte has had to back off on two areas I know of in Co. Kerry, where they purported to lease the forestry shooting but did not own the SRs.

If a farmer has the SRs he can give a permission or as many of them as he likes. Best to get it in writing – if another person has it in writing, you would be in an inferior position without similar.

I and a friend shoot (snipe & woodcock) over some land owned by farmer friends (my mate does some lamping for them) but they do not have the SRs. The owner of the SRs (over several thousand acres) does not shoot, but this season has leased them to an outsider. My mate recently was ‘found on’ and has already received a solicitor’s letter telling him he will be prosecuted for poaching should he be caught again.
P.

A friend of mine has the shooting rights of a lot of bogland, farmland, and forestry. This was part of a family estate that was broken up by the land comission long time back but the family held onto the sporting rights. He does not exercise his rights on the farmland as a point of goodwill with the owners but the bogland and forestry is excellent snipe, woodcock and fallow country and I'm lucky enough to enjoy it We make a point of not shooting pheasants as the local gunclub release a lot on ground nearby, again all in the name of goodwill as there are those that would grumble bout " 'im in the big 'ouse playing lord of the manor ! "

Coilte own the forestry and have tried there best to get his rights taken off him as they obviously know the value of the stalking but he has fought them all the way, at considerable expense !!

yog1

am i right in thinking that if you own the shooting rights on a piece of land and do not own the land itself, (e.g farmer who does't own the shooting rights to his own land) can the farmer stop you from shooting it by not giving you permission to be on the land,

tfox

yog1 wrote: »

am i right in thinking that if you own the shooting rights on a piece of land and do not own the land itself, (e.g farmer who does't own the shooting rights to his own land) can the farmer stop you from shooting it by not giving you permission to be on the land,

As far as I know ( I'm no leagal eagle and am open to correction ) if you own the sporting rights you have the right of access to hunt and pursue game.

yog1

tfox wrote: »

As far as I know ( I'm no leagal eagle and am open to correction ) if you own the sporting rights you have the right of access to hunt and pursue game.

what about vermin, does the owner of the land have the right to shoot vermin even if they don't own the shooting rights, or can the owner of the shooting rights access the lands to shoot vermin if they don't have permission to be on the land

tfox

yog1 wrote: »

what about vermin, does the owner of the land have the right to shoot vermin even if they don't own the shooting rights, or can the owner of the shooting rights access the lands to shoot vermin if they don't have permission to be on the land

As vermin goes I'm afraid I'm not sure. As there is only one case I'm familiar with and as said he doesnt exercise his rights on farmland as a point of goodwill towards the farmers. I cant imagine any holder of sporting rights not allowing the landowner to control vermin when it would be in his own interests too ?

But as a legal point I cannot say what is correct on this matter, maybe someone else more informed can enlighten us :rolleyes:

pedroeibar1

If you have the SRs it follows that you have the right to enter onto land to exercise them. Reputedly there were a few cases - one supposedly in N. Kerry - about not having a right to bring dogs onto the SR property but nobody has been able to identify that case for me.

Vermin is not game, which is what is covered under the SRs. Not a lawyer, but I believe a landowner is within his rights to shoot vermin on his land and thus those rights would be assignable. Any SRs owner should welcome people who do vermin control, as it helps their game population.

TFox’s mate with the SRs seems very enlightened, that’s the way to go. Pity too many others don’t share that view and f~@k it up for others.
It is down to common sense, if a SR owner is a total sod he deserves everything he gets. I looked up all this stuff years ago when I thought I could get the rights around me and get a club going, but the owner had his head in a dark place. By getting the wrong side of everyone in the community he has lost more salmon, deer, hares, woodcock and pheasant to poaching than he himself could shoot in a lifetime. Allow a few local kids a day or two on the river and he would assure its future. And I will run any foreigner his new lessee brings onto my place, small as it is.
Rs,
P.

Half-cocked

One farmer I do a pit of vermin control for has to go round his land every year pulling down shooting preserved signs that the local club puts up on his land without his permission!

BigDuffman

Same experience here I was out on the family land. (We have a farmer who runs our land for us and he lets the club / hunt go through the land. So the locals wouldn't know me.)

I was taking out some clays and a chappie rolls up in a land rover. Starts going on about how this is gun club land etc etc

As the chap didn't know me from adam, I politely informed him that the family did in fact own the land. Even after I identified myself he still continued on saying that I would still need permission for the gun club to shoot on it as I'm not a member of the club.

Still being patient with the fool, I apologised and asked if I was interrupting a club shoot. As there'd be no need for me to be a pr!ck if a club had been using the land or had planned to that day.

He persisted, I retired to the car to ask our land manager if he had sold the land without us knowing!!! Meanwhile chap is huffing and puffing about putting signs about shooting preserved signs up.

At end of my patience with the fool I asked him to get the fcuk off my land and not to return or think about putting unauthorized signage on the land. Still in two minds as to get on to the club. But every organization is bound to have an ar$ehole, but the muppet in question should really get priorities right and avoid hassling land owners who can as easily revoke permission!

cavan shooter

I cant believe :eek:that there appears to be such a large amount of arrogant fk hds in this country that dont realise that you get to hunt and shoot based on good will of the farmer/man that owns the land.:mad:

I would go to the club and tell them your pulling th permission unless you get an apology.:(

homerhop

We are having trouble atm with neighbouring club posting land we have permission for. Our chairman was beside one land owner when he called the other clubs chairman, telling them that they did not have permission to poster his lands, that it was our club he had given permission too. Told the guy to take their signs down to which he was informed they would not.So at the moment we have a full time job as they are going around pulling our signs down.

mightyabhabelle

we have little Club badges that we carry visibly for the club... different colours each year so we know who is a member and who isnt. Landowners family get the same but our club makes a policy to get to know them. Some simple rules are to be followed in these cases...

1) DONT approach a man with a gun in an aggressive manner... the odds are not stacked in your favour, even if he is a member or not

2) Never bite the hand that feeds you, so dont go mouthing to people you dont know but let you shoot their land when they dont know you.

3) Its up to you to get to know the land owners and not the other way around.

4) If in doubt introduce yourself, get their name, move on and if necessary report it.

OK I know I'm preaching to the converted but I also want you to know that I have all the shooting rights in Meath, handed down by high kings, who knew my fathers, fathers, mothers, best friends, neighbour.. so stay of my land you shower of planters... lol :D

Steyr243Hunter

In regards to putting signs up without permission, possibly littering?