New Rules for C class/Amateur/Semi Pro! fights

mmaireland.com

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Agree. There was an email discussion and all were agreed on the new rules format. Shane Thomas of Kokoro put all the data into a table so maybe he might start a thread with the new rules format in it.

Here you go on the rules that everyone involved (around 15 gyms and a good few promoters) agreed on. Effectively; "Semi Pro" no longer exists. We've amateur and pro. Can't wait to get these into play. We've needed amateur with head shots for a long, long time. :cool:

Click Here for Rules

kainer2

Great work, shame this will never happen in the UK

Do these rules kick-in for all Irish events from January 1st

cowzerp

kainer2 wrote: »

Great work, shame this will never happen in the UK

Do these rules kick-in for all Irish events from January 1st

They will on most, The 1st show doing them is on dec 3rd, the fight before xmas then most will follow suit-it's the way forward, i think the UK may follow this too when they see it working.

Daniel2oo9

Cheers For these,was wondering what the rules for me would be.Would The MMA League be taking these D Class Rules with the headshots inc?

bjj-fighter

Daniel2oo9 wrote: »

Cheers For these,was wondering what the rules for me would be.Would The MMA League be taking these D Class Rules with the headshots inc?

No AFAIk.

Daniel2oo9

bjj-fighter wrote: »

No AFAIk.

What?

Professey Chin

Daniel2oo9 wrote: »

What?

AFAIK = As Far As I Know

Learn internets you must young padawan

David Jones

Cheers For these,was wondering what the rules for me would be.Would The MMA League be taking these D Class Rules with the headshots inc?

No MMA league is a whole different level of rules an "E" class if you want to call it.

bjj-fighter

Daniel2oo9 wrote: »

What?

"As far as I know"

cletus

As Far As I Know

Liam_B

Gave the new C Class rules a rattle at the Cork Cage of Combat show with the 6 Oz Gloves 3x3 rounds, they worked well, no complaints about the gloves or rounds from the lads.

Daniel2oo9

Cheers Lads Haha But theres not that many shows being held for teens is there?

bjj-fighter

Daniel2oo9 wrote: »

Cheers Lads Haha But theres not that many shows being held for teens is there?

Nearly every show has teenage fights to open the card.

Daniel2oo9

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Nearly every show has teenage fights to open the card.

Never Knew that.
These Rules are Great.

7daze

Have the promoters putting together cards using this rule set noticed any change in the number of fighters available or the experience level of the fighters?

I'm wondering if the new rules have had any effect on first timers, or relatively inexperienced fighters, jumping into C class competition?

mark.leonard

MMA League Rules are not part of the Class system of rules used in shows, they are a distinct set and are not changing.

The League you have this year you will have next year.

Mellor

New rules look good.
Quick question on weights, do the irish promos group divisions by

• the typical divisions, 155, 170, 185 etc, or
• The nearest whole Kg weight, 70, 77, 84

And whats the tolerance,

pablohoney87

Mellor wrote: »

New rules look good.
Quick question on weights, do the irish promos group divisions by

• the typical divisions, 155, 170, 185 etc, or
• The nearest whole Kg weight, 70, 77, 84

And whats the tolerance,

CAge contender has started using lbs. Id imagine some of the larger promotions will follow. Cage contender gives no allowence. 170 means 170. Most other promotions give a half a kg allowance.

cowzerp

We're Irish so use kg-Lb's are outdated and less accurrate for measuring with, only people who like pounds are owl ones and john ferguson, we don't make allowances for weight either-in saying that the UFC have a lb allowance for non title fights as far as i know..

Mellor

How are lbs any less accurate? Accuracy depends on the scales, the units are no different.
Actually, to the nearest whole number, pounds are more accurate than kg.

I agree with using kg, as its the better unit generally. But not for the reasons you mentioned.

And the allowance isn't a UFC thing, its in the unified rules afaik, makes sense to have on tbh. Two fighters weight in, one is bang on the limit, the other is 50g over, he can't fight?

John Ferguson

pablohoney87 wrote: »

CAge contender has started using lbs. Id imagine some of the larger promotions will follow. Cage contender gives no allowence. 170 means 170. Most other promotions give a half a kg allowance.

The reason that we don't give allowance is that by nature if you tell someone that the can come in a little heavier 9 times outta 10 they will. So what's the point in saying you must be 135lbs but hey never worry come in at 135.5?? I don't see the logic in it it is much more simple to say that's the weight u have to make.

As for KGs vs LBs we use LBs because all of the worlds biggest organizations use them, and if it's good enough for them...

Barry.Oglesby

fightie wrote: »

The reason that we don't give allowance is that by nature if you tell someone that the can come in a little heavier 9 times outta 10 they will. So what's the point in saying you must be 135lbs but hey never worry come in at 135.5?? I don't see the logic in it it is much more simple to say that's the weight u have to make.

As for KGs vs LBs we use LBs because all of the worlds biggest organizations use them, and if it's good enough for them...

In fairness the weight allowance is always to give people some leway with respect to cutting and to allow for some variance in appliances. My scales might have me at 77.2kg but the organisation's might have me at 77.4kg.

By the same token, if it's plain enough that another 30min in the sauna is going to get rid of 200grammes and the fighter is willing to do it, then I think it's best and safest to save him the trip. This obviously doesn't apply if the lad weighs in way overweight.

Thw world's biggest organisations use lbs because in their countries they use an archaic and outdated system of measurement, not because they're better for fighters.

John Ferguson

We open our scales to fighters 2 hours before they weigh-in, this gives them the chance to check and adjust if required.

At the last CC show in Manchester we had 3 fighters complaining about the scales being out, and funny enough they were the 3 who missed weight

It's only fair that if a fighter makes weight that his opponent makes weight too!

Jason McCabe

with regards the new rules I'm finding that a lot of clubs aren't bought into the idea. Especially here in the north.

Maybe the consultation wasn't done properly or signed off properly at the club level

Sid_Justice

The UFC the biggest organisation in the world pay their fighters in Dollars, Fighting.ie ireland's soon to be biggest organisation are going to do the same thing. if it's good enough for the UFC it's good enough for us.

mmaireland.com

Jason McCabe wrote: »

with regards the new rules I'm finding that a lot of clubs aren't bought into the idea. Especially here in the north.

Maybe the consultation wasn't done properly or signed off properly at the club level

Bottom line; we'll be fighting under those rules only. As will many of the "biggest" gyms that supply large portion of fighters. I'm sick to death of attending shows and finding out when we get there what the rules are going to be.

So, it's those rules - or forget it. Ours is not the only gym that feels this way. If shows that agreed to the ruleset are going to fall at the first hurdle instead of make the tough call to stick by their guns - that's their call I guess.

We need a unified rule set. The majority that agreed to this rule set should stick to it. If they do; the minority will follow.

Of course there will be those that don't buy in immediately. It doesn't stop it being the right way to go. Get it up and running guys. I'm sick of changing game plans on the night for each and every show. It's a joke.

cowzerp

Mellor wrote: »

How are lbs any less accurate? Accuracy depends on the scales, the units are no different.
Actually, to the nearest whole number, pounds are more accurate than kg.


I agree with using kg, as its the better unit generally. But not for the reasons you mentioned.

KG can be accurate to .001kg not .1lb that the good scales will give you, my scales is expensive and the type that should be used to weigh in for shows and is seriously accurate, Lbs scales are mainly round numbers, 120lbs instead of 120.3 or whatever.. of course there is some scales that are more accurate but i've never seen 1 at any weigh in bar the boxing and they also use KG..

Kg Is definitely the more accurate system.. you say kg is the better unit, why if its not for more accurate readings..

John Ferguson

Sid_Justice wrote: »

The UFC the biggest organisation in the world pay their fighters in Dollars, Fighting.ie ireland's soon to be biggest organisation are going to do the same thing. if it's good enough for the UFC it's good enough for us.

Lol.... I suppose dollars will be a step up from peanuts

Shane, what Jason is saying about the Northern gyms not buying into the new c class rules was the very point that I kept raising (and others kept ignoring) through out the email discussions we were having. While I agree the new C Class rules are the correct way forward, it needs to be supported by the majority of clubs Ireland wide not just by about 15 out of over 45 clubs.

kainer2

The probs with using KG's is that for 'unified rules' the weight is never right

e.g LW = 155 pounds = 70.3068174 kilograms which is normally taken as 70.3

Then you got the 1 lb allowance which is 454 grams

So it can be confusing, CWFC use KG but i've thought about going back to lbs as it is easier. But that will make things harder for the Euros, as it is a catch 22 situation.

But the two female fights we have on Nov 27th are in lbs as we are bringing over 2 US fighters.

I know some people argue we should go to 70, 77, 84, 93 exact but i think that will cause probs too

cowzerp

kainer2 wrote: »

I know some people argue we should go to 70, 77, 84, 93 exact but i think that will cause probs too

Why would it?

kainer2

cowzerp wrote: »

Why would it?

Because they aren't the unified weight classes? Plus we work in MMA and everything we do is a drama ?

M-1 use 70-76-85 with no allowance and i know they struggled to get decent US imports at 1 time. Especially at WW/76.

Also i like the 1lbs/454 gram allowance for all but Title fights, and someone did say that it's in unified rules too, but in the USA it can vary from State to State

cowzerp

kainer2 wrote: »

Because they aren't the unified weight classes? Plus we work in MMA and everything we do is a drama ?

M-1 use 70-76-85 with no allowance and i know they struggled to get decent US imports at 1 time. Especially at WW/76.

Also i like the 1lbs/454 gram allowance for all but Title fights, and someone did say that it's in unified rules too, but in the USA it can vary from State to State

In reality there is no unified rules in MMA, most organisations have there own minor differnces, instead of .454g make it a .5kg allowance, simples..

All that matters is people know what there getting into, kg is the way RIR is and will stay.. i am not going back in time for the yanks.

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

In reality there is no unified rules in MMA, most organisations have there own minor differences

Valid point! And that is the very reason there won't be and in my opinion is no need for a governing body. Each promotion is in effect it's own body. It is then for the coaches to read the rule set from a promotion and then decide if they are happy to put fighters on it

Barry.Oglesby

Jason McCabe wrote: »

with regards the new rules I'm finding that a lot of clubs aren't bought into the idea. Especially here in the north.

Maybe the consultation wasn't done properly or signed off properly at the club level

The initial discussion took place on here. This is a public forum and while not everyone posts on it or reads it, everyone was encouraged to pass the word on and tell people about it.

Then the email went out. I explained that I didn't have everyone's mail, so could people add who they didn't see. People were added, the discussion went on (at great length!) and there was ample opportunity for people to get on board with their opinions at that stage. A lot of people watched but didn't contribute to that discussion, and as far as I'm concerned if you knew about it but didn't object, then that must mean you were fine with it.

Now if someone missed it, I'd be happy enough to hear their views, especially if they were left out of the original discussion, as they may have something to say on the matter that might change people's minds, but I doubt it. We thrashed it out pretty comprehensively.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy with the new rules, and I'm happy to let my fighters fight under them in any show that has agreed to use them and only them. I won't be providing fighters for anything other than the new A, B or C class of fights.

Mellor

cowzerp wrote: »

KG can be accurate to .001kg not .1lb that the good scales will give you, my scales is expensive and the type that should be used to weigh in for shows and is seriously accurate, Lbs scales are mainly round numbers, 120lbs instead of 120.3 or whatever.. of course there is some scales that are more accurate but i've never seen 1 at any weigh in bar the boxing and they also use KG..

Kg Is definitely the more accurate system.. you say kg is the better unit, why if its not for more accurate readings..

I'm honest not sure if you are taking the piss with the above.
Kg is better as a unit for a number of reasons, he biggest being the whole SI systems using if as a base for other units, density, force etc, just to clear why I think its better?

But accuracy? the units have no impact on accuracy. It's the scales that is accurate (or unaccurate), the scales doesn't care what unit you use. It's calibrated either way. Any decent scales (hell even the cheap ones) have a option for selecting units. So if it was accurate to 1 grams (.001kg) its accurace doesn't change when you change the unit to lbs.

Also for clubs that have no tolerance, if a fighter weighted in at 76.001 do you not let him fight? :rolleyes:

Barry.Oglesby

I'm posting here as I don't want to take away from the Chaos 8 thread which should be about fights not rules.

@Jason- my ridiculous comment came about because basically what we're talking about here is wearing or not wearing a pair of soft shinpads. Your show used the larger gloves for C anyway so quite literally, two pieces of soft material and calling the match D class is the difference between having a unified ruleset or not. That, to me, is ridiculous.

The whole idea of the discussion was so that there could be a common, unified set of rules for the benefit of fighters, fans and coaches and ultimately for the future development of the sport in Ireland. Now it seems all we gained from our work was to create even more confusion, and an additional class of fight to further complicate an already misunderstood sport.

I started the mail but I don't represent anyone but myself, so I can only speak for me and my team. I have sacrificed a bit by committing to these rules- I will have less fighters on larger shows for example- and I'm sure others will feel the same way, and now it seems we're into "I'm alright Jack" territory. The "do whatever rules you want" craic is exactly the type of thing everyone wants to avoid. To be frank, it's ****ing depressing that we were so close to agreement and now it's out the window, and to the readers of this board and anyone who hears about this, we look like muppets who can't tie our own shoes. We can't even agree on what rules to fight under.

I'm going to cut it short here as there's an elephant in the room and the angrier I get here the closer I get to typing it.

Jason McCabe

I think we can get agreement. It's just that some people were not in the discussion.

These are people who like it or not carry a lot of clout and have some of the best talent in the country fighting out of their gyms.

I think its important that a bit more time is given to the issue and we don't all start spitting our dummies out of the pram.

D class is pretty much what Davy P does at the ramble so it should not be a major issue as Rod and Marty Walker's clubs compete there.

I can't really say where Chum Sut or GBNI are on the whole matter. I think they like using the shooto amateur rules.

Mrs Lynch

I am not a promoter nor a coach but I still entitled to my view

I think in general rules are good but am not over the moon with some of them. I think it was a great achievement to get togather (with majority) of coaches/ promotions to sort out but at the end of the day it was not all of them! Therefore they are not unified rules, merely guidelines which some chose to accept others can work around and its a credit that they can imo!

As long as no fighter or club in this country is disadvantaged surely working around "rules" is OK??? Clubs shudnt be isolated because they didnt sign-up as at the end of the day there is no governing body to request it be mandatory nor is any one club better than the other regardless.

Urs
x

Pontificatus

After all the progress that was made in the initial discussion, it now appears to be going backwards. I thought the principle behind the unified set of rules was to make it easier for fighters once they reach the top A class level to fight on bigger international shows. Not only that but it makes it easier for spectators to understand the ruleset because it is the same from promotion to promotion.

Can anyone explain how a fighter is disadvantaged by the suggested rulesets? I dont see how any class of fighter whether its A, B, C or D (old c class with shin pads) are disadvantaged by the ruleset.

Perhaps the clubs that are not happy with the rules could give their thoughts and suggested amendments so an agreement can actaully be reached. Hopefully its not a case of 'just because'

Mellor

Mrs Lynch wrote: »

I am not a promoter nor a coach but I still entitled to my view

Of course

I think in general rules are good but am not over the moon with some of them.

Which ones and why?

As long as no fighter or club in this country is disadvantaged surely working around "rules" is OK??? Clubs shudnt be isolated because they didnt sign-up as at the end of the day there is no governing body to request it be mandatory nor is any one club better than the other regardless.

What would you consider working around the rules as?

Barry.Oglesby

If anyone can explain to me how any club or fighter is disadvantaged by the new rules I'm all ears.

Martin Walker

I dont think there are any disadvantages with the proposed rules.
Four progressive well structured steps from Novice to Pro.

I think from talking about this the last time when we had a "meeting" in Antrim the main problem some people have is with the "new C-Class" rules.
From what i picked up some clubs dont like the idea of an Amateur fight having head-shots on the ground. I can understand that. Maybe you should get paid for fighting under such rules. The very subject was brought up the last time by Gallo Roberto and was meet then with a resounding no.

On a side note. Any proposed changes to rules will have to be presented to ALL promoters and coaches. Not just a portion. Not everyone reads this little forum. And to crack on and try to push through changes will breed resentment. People will huff.
Plus if the rules are agreed to two of the "bigger" Promotions will not take them on.
Cage Wars will use there rules no matter what.
Clan Wars get there rules from ISKA. I would say they will stick with them.

But the main thing right now is for people to stay calm and not spit there dummies out. Its got this far. No need to stop because youve all hit a kerb.

Just what i think.

David Jones

I personally dont think this debate should be back on here. As Barry said the email discussion was there, I would say those who were missed were in the minority, perhaps there were some silent voices who for some reason didnt want to get involved for whatever reason. They should probably email Barry or I am also happy to take ideas and opinions on board from those who were missed or who didnt speak up and pass them to everyone else in the discussion.

No disrespect to casual posters and fans, but the future rules of MMA in this country, whilst you might have an opinion on them, should not be determined on an internet forum.

cowzerp

David Jones wrote: »

I personally dont think this debate should be back on here. As Barry said the email discussion was there, I would say those who were missed were in the minority, perhaps there were some silent voices who for some reason didnt want to get involved for whatever reason. They should probably email Barry or I am also happy to take ideas and opinions on board from those who were missed or who didnt speak up and pass them to everyone else in the discussion.

No disrespect to casual posters and fans, but the future rules of MMA in this country, whilst you might have an opinion on them, should not be determined on an internet forum.

Well said Dave, I added a number of our Nothern coaches onto the discussion and i find it hard to believe that most did not know the debate was going on, either here on on e mail, they could have said there piece and still can, its not an us against them situation and should nopt become that either.. We all have the common goal of improving Irish MMA and the new rules structure will certainly improve the top level Standard down the line, for the people not ready to do them rules yet, throw on a pair of shin pads and drop knee's to the head and your in business.. so most who have yet to comment seem to like this idea anyway so i dont see the issue. They have yet to complain on a forum or personally so i dont even know if they do have issues.

Mellor

Martin Walker wrote: »

I think from talking about this the last time when we had a "meeting" in Antrim the main problem some people have is with the "new C-Class" rules.
From what i picked up some clubs dont like the idea of an Amateur fight having head-shots on the ground.

Then fight D class if that's the case

Martin Walker

Mellor wrote: »

Then fight D class if that's the case

If only it was that easy.

cowzerp

Martin Walker wrote: »

If only it was that easy.

Why would'nt it be Martin?

its just a matter of putting on Shin pads, the new C class will ease people into GnP against lower opposition instead of going up in standard and having new rules to contend with..

I dont care who follows what rules as if we all get defensive there will be many splits but 1 thing i will say is the 1's who go the new route will have a major advantage when they debut at pro and are already used to GnP and not in a panic about something new to contend with.

Martin Walker

cowzerp wrote: »

Why would'nt it be Martin?

its just a matter of putting on Shin pads, the new C class will ease people into GnP against lower opposition instead of going up in standard and having new rules to contend with..

I dont care who follows what rules as if we all get defensive there will be many splits but 1 thing i will say is the 1's who go the new route will have a major advantage when they debut at pro and are already used to GnP and not in a panic about something new to contend with.

Dont get me wrong here. As ive said before i think the new rule set is the way to go.

But you know the people involved here Paul. Lets not beat about the bush. Weve been here before. Unless everyone sits down and talks it out properly it will be hard to get agreement. Some sides just dont like or want the "New" Rule sets.

I hope it works i really do. But no-one can make a Promoter or Coach do anything they dont want to do.

cowzerp

Martin Walker wrote: »

Dont get me wrong here. As ive said before i think the new rule set is the way to go.

But you know the people involved here Paul. Lets not beat about the bush. Weve been here before. Unless everyone sits down and talks it out properly it will be hard to get agreement. Some sides just dont like or want the "New" Rule sets.

I hope it works i really do. But no-one can make a Promoter or Coach do anything they dont want to do.

Agreed on this but in anything in life, 100% agreement should not be needed, in saying this-i dont think promotions should have rules forced on them as long as there not endangering people, im going with the agreed rules and think with time it will become the norm, as it is i think once people know what there showing up to do and refs do too and the rules are not crazy then im not going to be panicking..

In England a while ago for example pride rules where going to be brought into a promotion, i would not believe that would be good for the future of Irish MMA and would not put fighters forward for a show doing that.

Finian123

i dont like the idea of headguards for u16s ??
was lookin forward 2 gettin into the cage myself after xmas but now am not to intersted because of da headguards.
i thought headguards were really just for amaetur boxing ? i think it takes away mma from the cage if ur wearin a headguard u come in with a big knee or right hand that wud do good damage but the guy dosent feel it because he was wearing a head guard and how wud the ground work never tried it with 1 on but something i will try soon any advice comments feel free to give me ur opinion on the subject
thanks in advance

Mellor

Finian123 wrote: »

i dont like the idea of headguards for u16s ??
was lookin forward 2 gettin into the cage myself after xmas but now am not to intersted because of da headguards.
i thought headguards were really just for amaetur boxing ? i think it takes away mma from the cage if ur wearin a headguard u come in with a big knee or right hand that wud do good damage but the guy dosent feel it because he was wearing a head guard and how wud the ground work never tried it with 1 on but something i will try soon any advice comments feel free to give me ur opinion on the subject
thanks in advance

Head guards is really always going to be the case for u16s, they are children's amatuer fights
There is no way it would be allowed to fly without it.
you'll have to wait until you are older, if you are serious about it you'd be a fool not to give it a go because of head guards. The guy who has been fighting for 2 years with a head guard is at a huge advantage over you if you decide to give it a go (without a guard) at 18