Students will be forced to pay 2,500 reg fees (Indo)

bnt

Nice spin-doctoring, there:

• leak the idea of a registration fee increase to €3,000;
• wait for predictable reaction;
• announce an increase to €2,500;
• people go "oh, that ain't so bad".

:cool:

The Waltzing Consumer

gurramok wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. Kids don't go to 3rd level, adults do. Prisoners are adults. There are 2 choices of people who get free education at 3rd level, the prisoners and the 65,000 poor students. The poster chose the former to vent his outrage at free education.

No, people like me who are intelligent and poor. The barrier of cost was removed and there was a level playing field on entry into college with equally intelligent students who had to pay fees. No-one was stupid.

:rolleyes: You have the quite the big ego?

Firstly, whats with that sentence? Two choices of people? You mean "two types of people"?

Secondly, there are more than two types of people who qualify for free education, have you heard of Back to Education?

Thirdly, I mentioned prisoners, because all this talk of fees is a cost-cutting measure, so I think about alternatives before charging all students. One thing I would think of is getting rid of prison education before touching student fees or grants.

Now, please think before you speak.

melekalikimaka

cuts are running across the board, they tried medical cards... everyone kicked up a fuss...now they are hitting education... the deficit is gonna be recovered somewhere, we need to lose our sense of entitlement in this country... asap

The Waltzing Consumer

bnt wrote: »

Nice spin-doctoring, there:

• leak the idea of a registration fee increase to €3,000;
• wait for predictable reaction;
• announce an increase to €2,500;
• people go "oh, that ain't so bad".

:cool:

Exactly, the Student Union look like they have won since it ain't the worse case scenario, the Government have the students off their backs, student union leaders go on to be councillors, tds and and the whole cycle continues.

Mark200

c_man wrote: »

Well if some fees have to be introduced, how would you go about it?

A student loan system or graduate tax, that would not be payable until the student is actually earning enough to afford it.

gurramok wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. Kids don't go to 3rd level, adults do. Prisoners are adults. There are 2 choices of people who get free education at 3rd level, the prisoners and the 65,000 poor students. The poster chose the former to vent his outrage at free education.



No, people like me who are intelligent and poor. The barrier of cost was removed and there was a level playing field on entry into college with equally intelligent students who had to pay fees. No-one was stupid.

I've never heard something so idiotic from someone supposedly so intelligent. You should really quit your attempt to claim that poster was comparing college students to prisoners.

southsiderosie

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Exact same with Swedish and Finnish people I lived with before. They just left the country.

There needs to be an EU-wide way to deal with this, given that there is an open labor market. At a minimum, in Ireland there should be a way to link up and track loan repayments with the UK.

That said, not charging fees has the same result: students may emigrate to work, and the government has now subsidized the training of another country's workforce.

Mark200

southsiderosie wrote: »

There needs to be an EU-wide way to deal with this, given that there is an open labor market. At a minimum, in Ireland there should be a way to link up and track loan repayments with the UK.

That said, not charging fees has the same result: students may emigrate to work, and the government has now subsidized the training of another country's workforce.

The thing is that even if 20% of graduates emigrate to avoid repaying their loans, that still means the Government are making an 80% saving on college fees.

gurramok

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: You have the quite the big ego?

Firstly, whats with that sentence? Two choices of people? You mean "two types of people"?

Secondly, there are more than two types of people who qualify for free education, have you heard of Back to Education?

Thirdly, I mentioned prisoners, because all this talk of fees is a cost-cutting measure, so I think about alternatives before charging all students. One thing I would think of is getting rid of prison education before touching student fees or grants.

Now, please think before you speak.

No ego thanks Those on BTEA are poor, so no 3rd category.

Why you so against the fees anyway? You never said so. All that the taxpayers ask is to contribute to your 3rd level education, how hard is that when its affordable to the families who can pay?

Mark200 wrote: »

I've never heard something so idiotic from someone supposedly so intelligent. You should really quit your attempt to claim that poster was comparing college students to prisoners.

It was a very odd post that the poster posted, free education for the underprivileged should not be touched as I believe in equal opportunities without a barrier of cost preventing intelligent poor kids reaching their potential.

Chuchoter

This is the wrong time to hike up fees, when there are no part time jobs for students to help pay them. Back along in the celtic tiger it would have been fine because if you wanted a job you could have one, now there is nothing.:(

flash1080

token56 wrote: »

I dont think its actually a bad thing. It might actually make some people question why they are going to college and if the course they are doing is the right one for them. Rather than having Mammy or Daddy pay for them to go and enjoy 3 or 4 years of socializing and a few exams twice a year and get a job completely unrelated to their degree afterwards.

I know this is a huge generalization but its still an issue which this might help stem.

What's wrong with socialising, sitting exams, and getting a job completely unrelated to their degree?

melekalikimaka wrote: »

cuts are running across the board, they tried medical cards... everyone kicked up a fuss...now they are hitting education... the deficit is gonna be recovered somewhere, we need to lose our sense of entitlement in this country... asap

Disagreeing with college fees doesn't equal having a sense of entitlement.

The Waltzing Consumer

gurramok wrote: »

The outrage that students have to pay for their own education!:rolleyes:

gurramok wrote: »

You clearly have a problem with people getting free education.

gurramok wrote: »

No. I was a poor student who did not have to pay fees as thats how the system is set up to help people like me who are intelligent(:D) to get into college without having a cost barrier.

They are poor though and thats how the system is set up.

gurramok wrote: »

A student loan system should be setup in the absence of middle class families not paying their way.

gurramok wrote: »

Of course he kindly forgot about the 65,000 non-criminals who get free education.:mad:

gurramok wrote: »

No, people like me who are intelligent and poor. The barrier of cost was removed and there was a level playing field on entry into college with equally intelligent students who had to pay fees. No-one was stupid.

gurramok wrote: »

how hard is that when its affordable to the families who can pay?

It was a very odd post that the poster posted, free education for the underprivileged should not be touched as I believe in equal opportunities without a barrier of cost preventing intelligent poor kids reaching their potential.

You have a very odd personality, you love ranting on about being poor, you gloat about getting in for free to college then you moan that middle class people should pay so scroungers like yourself can get a free ride.

The only equal opportunity you seem to be interested in is everyone else should pay for you. All your posts contradict each other in some way :P

Dear child, please grow up and stop trolling.

southsiderosie

Mark200 wrote: »

The thing is that even if 20% of graduates emigrate to avoid repaying their loans, that still means the Government are making an 80% saving on college fees.

Oh, I'm not arguing against fees; I think it was foolish to abolish them in the first place. I think you are right in theory, but I know that the EU is pushing for more convergence among universities (so people's qualifications are portable) so it would make sense to also coordinate on student loan debt.

orourkeda

Boo Hoo students.

Get a job you freeloading cants

ILA

southsiderosie wrote: »

Oh, I'm not arguing against fees; I think it was foolish to abolish them in the first place. I think you are right in theory, but I know that the EU is pushing for more convergence among universities (so people's qualifications are portable) so it would make sense to also coordinate on student loan debt.

Of course that suits their super-state agenda.

southsiderosie

ILA wrote: »

Of course that suits their super-state agenda.

I am generally a Euro-sceptic, but it does not make sense to have an open labor market without some kind of mechanism for handing 1) recognition of qualifications and 2) transfers of financial obligations. They've coordinated somewhat on welfare payments, why not in these other areas?

In addition, if there was some kind of accreditation transfer mechanism, Irish universities could really benefit, since there is such a premium put on English. If universities set up professional masters programs that were more open to international students, and those students knew that they could take their degrees elsewhere, then their higher fees could help subsidize more Irish students. A lot of US universities do this - the PhD students (i.e. the ones who do the research) don't pay a cent, and the undergraduates are heavily subsidized (and limit the number of international students), but the Masters programs charge a fortune, and that helps subsidize everyone else.

ILA

I would be opposed anything that allows loans to follow people from one state to another. However, the suggestion does have some merits.

gurramok

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

You have a very odd personality, you love ranting on about being poor, you gloat about getting in for free to college then you moan that middle class people should pay so scroungers like yourself can get a free ride.

The only equal opportunity you seem to be interested in is everyone else should pay for you. All your posts contradict each other in some way :P

Dear child, please grow up and stop trolling.

Oh dear, I asked you a question on your solution for paying fees and this is what you spout?

How is a poor student a scrounger then? Nice way to label 65,000 students as scroungers :eek:

ILA

gurramok wrote: »

How is a poor student a scrounger then? Nice way to label 65,000 students as scroungers :eek:

I personally reckon a large amount of grant (ie: so-called poor and destitute scobes) receivers are scroungers and the reason why the third level sector is claiming funding difficulties.

College has been the best cure for my lefty view on the world. I'm steadily moving to the right of Hitler and the Left of Genghis Khan.

MitchKoobski

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Even if I succesfully get my grant application accepted for next year, they won't cover €3000 or €2500 or whatever they want to increase it to. I worked full-time for this summer to give myself some money as a backup for the year, working full-time next summer wont net me the €2500 or €3000 I'll need. I'll have to drop out of college.

Eh?
I thought the grant paid the reg fee. Pretty sure it did...

stovelid

Put it like this, if you think having a college eduction will make you financially better off (in say, 15 years time) than the majority of people who don't, then pay for the privilege.

If you don't - or you don't think it's worth it - then just don't go to college.

flash1080

orourkeda wrote: »

Boo Hoo students.

Get a job you freeloading cants

The idea is to get an education, acquire skills, and get a job.

stovelid wrote: »

Put it like this, if you think having a college eduction will make you financially better off (in say, 15 years time) than the majority of people who don't, then pay for the privilege.

If you don't - or you don't think it's worth it - then just don't go to college.

They will pay for it when they pay income tax when they're working in jobs after they graduate.

MitchKoobski

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh?
I thought the grant paid the reg fee. Pretty sure it did...

Went in to ask the VEC about it already, they said it was already debated on whether or not they would cover the €1500 when it was previously increased. Now that its going up again I was told they wont cover the full €3000, half of it at most given that the grant is also going to be cut in the budget. Woman I spoke to in there was pretty helpful but couldn't give me a definite figure on what they would cover.

MitchKoobski

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Went in to ask the VEC about it already, they said it was already debated on whether or not they would cover the €1500 when it was previously increased. Now that its going up again I was told they wont cover the full €3000, half of it at most given that the grant is also going to be cut in the budget. Woman I spoke to in there was pretty helpful but couldn't give me a definite figure on what they would cover.

Oh I see, I had just found this table too:

Income Limits for Standard Grant - 2010


No of Dependent Children 100% Main & Full Registration Fees 75% Main & Full Registration Fees 50% Main & Full Registration Fees 25% Main & Full Registration Fees Part Tuition Fees 50% for Post Grad Courses only and Full Registration Fees **
Less than 4 €41,110 €42,235 €44,720 €47,205 €51,380
4 - 7 €45,165 €46,415 €49,145 €51,880 €56,460
8 or more €49,045 €50,400 €53,360 €56,320 €61,295

Yuck it's lost its formatting
oh well, fingers crossed for you


lol I just saw:

Be at least 17 years of age on or before 1st January 2010 and in the case of the Post Leaving Cert Scheme be at least 16 years of age on commencement of the course - LONG ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATES FOR STUDENTS MUST BE SUPPLIED

Don't think they enforced that one too strictly

stovelid

flash1080 wrote: »

They will pay for it when they pay income tax when they're working in jobs after they graduate.

I wasn't aware that only college graduates pay income tax?

Hank_Jones

Personally, I think this is awful.
I am currently getting no grant and work 4 days a week in order to sustain my rent and food, barely getting by.
€1000 euro would add up to 6 or 7 weeks of money used for these things.

Not everyone gets a grant.

I also find it rather amusing that there are probably people on here who got free college education, yet seem to be all for raising fees...
Sure it's grand, you already got your "free" college education...

The Waltzing Consumer

gurramok wrote: »

Oh dear, I asked you a question on your solution for paying fees and this is what you spout?

How is a poor student a scrounger then? Nice way to label 65,000 students as scroungers :eek:

Child, I do not wish to talk to you further on this thread, everything up to now has been trolling and despite many posters pointing out the obvious errors in your posts, you continue trolling.

All the best!

flash1080

stovelid wrote: »

I wasn't aware that only college graduates pay income tax?

I didn't say that only college graduates pay income tax.

gurramok

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Child, I do not wish to talk to you further on this thread, everything up to now has been trolling and despite many posters pointing out the obvious errors in your posts, you continue trolling.

All the best!

Many posters?:rolleyes: Maybe your trolling by refusing to debate questions and calling names to anyone who got free education.?

So you can offer no solution to the fees problem other than to call 65,000 students scroungers(including myself), brilliant.

stovelid

flash1080 wrote: »

I didn't say that only college graduates pay income tax.

While I hate the commonly held notion on here that income tax is like deployable income (as in I pay my taxes and don't want them used for A and , I think third-level education is a tricky one.

If you get a college eduction, you have a far better chance of getting a decent job and subsequently, a life of non-poverty and opportunity - fr you and your children.

As the way to college (for many reasons) if blocked (or at least far, far more difficult) for many people in society and that college does confer considerable privilege and opportunity: as well as a broadened mind and personal enjoyment, I would tend to agree that college should be means-tested and privately funded by those who can pay (without bleating about being cash-strapped because of high mortgages and other elective lifestyle choices) and a decent grant system provided to help those unable to pay.

Mars Bar

Oh well, it's now a rubber stamped fact that I would be doing the 4th year add on even if I wanted to.
Hope I find a job so I can finally be independent and let my parents put my sister through her next 2/3 years in college.

KnifeWRENCH

People who can't afford this registration fee are more than likely receiving the grant anyway and therefore won't have to pay it. The only people I'd feel sorry for really are those who are just above the cut-off point for the grant; an extra €1000 per year won't be easy for some.

But at the end of the day, money has to come from somewhere. It's unfortunate, but if it'll go some way to fixing the economy (I'm skeptical about that, but let's say for now that it will) then it's a necessary evil.

dr.bollocko

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Dear child, please grow up and stop trolling.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Child, I do not wish to talk to you further on this thread, everything up to now has been trolling and despite many posters pointing out the obvious errors in your posts, you continue trolling.

All the best!

gurramok wrote: »

Many posters?:rolleyes: Maybe your trolling by refusing to debate questions and calling names to anyone who got free education.?

Can we please get back to topic and leave out the accusations of trolling, childishness etc. from here on out thanks folks.

orourkeda

orourkeda wrote: »

Boo Hoo students.

Get a job you freeloading cants

lol what jobs? they will emigrate for work and now for college.
In UK they will get their fees paid and might actually have a chance at getting a part time job to support themselves.

Meanwhile Ireland will get poorer and poorer. Bit by bit we remove each possible flicker of hope for a recovery. Good luck with a recovery this decade without graduates. We already have enough apprentices.
http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006756.shtml
1 in 8 were construction workers or are now unemployed construction workers. We need to retrain these people. They need to become graduates.

stovelid wrote: »

Put it like this, if you think having a college eduction will make you financially better off (in say, 15 years time) than the majority of people who don't, then pay for the privilege.

If we have better skills here we stand a chance at investment and that means a better economy for everyone hence the argument that society benefits from graduates and both graduates & society should pay their share of the costs involved. The benefits are already shared.

ILA

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

But at the end of the day, money has to come from somewhere. It's unfortunate, but if it'll go some way to fixing the economy (I'm skeptical about that, but let's say for now that it will) then it's a necessary evil.

God I hate this attitude. "Ah sure, we may get up, dust ourselves off and carry on" after being deliberately guided into a cement wall.

I didn't cause this situation. I'm sick of a (perhaps even an entire form of) government that doesn't represent my interests, dictating how much people should pay for education, petrol, alcohol, etc. and the alternatives in our current system are no different and equally unrepresentative ,whether Fine Gael, Labour, Green or Independent, and always will be.

stovelid

stovelid wrote: »

I wasn't aware that only college graduates pay income tax?

There is also the fact that a large majority of people who don't go to college do an apprenticeship which they spend a large amount of time in fas getting paid, having their accommodation paid etc. So that's another large chunk of society who are being very hippocratical if they call for fees to be re-introduced as the money they received is no different than that paid in fees except they get it into their hands.

Overall taking college graduates and trades people and others that have received government grants/funding that leaves quite a small percentage of society who can actually complain about some of their tax money going towards college fees and the majority of these people are just bitter and cant comprehend that the percentage of their tax which goes towards fees is tiny in comparison with all the other things funded by tax payers money.

Mr Benevolent

Make them pay if it means better standards. I'd gladly pay to go to college if it meant getting an excellent education. Irish third level facilities/lecturers/opportunities are mediocre at best.

Merzbow

This is just screwing over the middle class yet again, with the lower class being exempt, and the upper class either a) misdeclaring their own income and being exempt, or b) having enough money not to care about the increase.

The middle class families are the ones contributing the most and the only ones who can really save the economy, by being in employment, paying the most tax and not receiving a cent from the state. No medical cards, no rent allowance, no jobseekers allowance, nothing. Contributing tens of thousands to the economy through PAYE, PRSI, VAT, etc. But sure lets f**k them over again.

Dudess

Fees definitely should be reintroduced I think - but (in an ideal world) with a means testing scale comprising far more layers than last time around. I think the point "Education is a right" is moot. Primary and secondary education are, but not third level, seeing as it's not essential for/not availed of by many, whereas the first two are. Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money as it is.

Professional Griefer

And away they all go to Dublin tomorrow to protest about it. As a student myself it will be a bit of a pain. But I agree with them coming back in.

The best thing is, those going up tomorrow are all just getting drunk and marching through Dublin. Can't wait to see the media slaughter us for the lads going ALL the way up to Dublin to get drunk, take the day off college, and make a fool of us all.

hotmail.com

Dudess wrote: »

Fees definitely should be reintroduced I think - but (in an ideal world) with a means testing scale comprising far more layers than last time around. I think the point "Education is a right" is moot. Primary and secondary education are, but not third level, seeing as it's not essential for/not availed of by many, whereas the first two are. Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money as it is.

Is second level essential? Perhaps up to the age of 16, after that I'm not so sure.

I wonder how many of the opponents of this potential increase went to private secondary schools?

ferrete

listen it should be fees for all or free for everyone none of this grant crap
i no students with parents driving mercs new audis and landcruisers an getting the grant. and where others are working day and night and having their study stuffer and never going out wit no grant as their parents are in debt etc and have to pay their own way this is a joke free for all or grant for no1

Dudess

hotmail.com wrote: »

Is second level essential? Perhaps up to the age of 16, after that I'm not so sure.

I wonder how many of the opponents of this potential increase went to private secondary schools?

A lot, no doubt. I do find that ironic: willingness to fork out for private school fees/tuition centres/grinds, but outrage at third level fees.

No, the leaving cert isn't essential if you want to do an apprenticeship/work in some sectors like retail (although not across the retail board) and manufacturing.

Little Acorn

Aren't we always being told though, that a third level degree is essential these days?

Sheeps

Don't give a ****. Not a student anymore.

Dudess

ferrete wrote: »

listen it should be fees for all or free for everyone none of this grant crap

Why is it crap? It's essential for some.

i no students with parents driving mercs new audis and landcruisers an getting the grant. and where others are working day and night and having their study stuffer and never going out wit no grant as their parents are in debt etc and have to pay their own way

Well more stringent means testing would (in theory anyway) eliminate the likes of the above. I can't see how your recommendation of fees across the board or no fees across the board would be fairer...

maninasia

gurramok wrote: »

Guess the following are scum too? :eek:



3,000 is not enough to charge for, it should be alot higher. In the UK, you have to pay up to 30kstg for some medical courses. http://www.qmul.ac.uk/international/feesfinance/

Some things never change, as usual the hard working families get done and dolers and people who hide taxable income get the grant. About time a government backed loan system came in and grants were abolished

Dudess

Little Acorn wrote: »

Aren't we always being told though, that a third level degree is essential these days?

Yeah, we're told it by the likes of career guidance teachers, but it's not really true unless you're working in a sector that actually requires a third level qualification - many sectors value work experience though over qualifications.

hotmail.com

I think students can get grants if their parents are retired, regardless of what pension the parent is on (can anyone confirm if this is still the case?). Crazy policy.

The protests are not taken seriously by many students and having seen a few of them, they are usually led by people from the leafy areas of the southside of Dublin. That said, it's important that they protest and are allowed to protest.

maxxie

keeping the population further in debt widening the rat race! SOUND!!

Im joining a tribe in the amazon

Little Acorn

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, we're told it by the likes of career guidance teachers, but it's not really true unless you're working in a sector that actually requires a third level qualification - many sectors value work experience though over qualifications.

Yeah I agree with you there that I think work experience is more likely to be valued over qualifications in a lot of jobs,
but what about people just out of secondary school with no experience?
Job places are so competitive now, that it is highly unlikely that some employer will just take a chance and employ them, when they have others who have a qualification and/or good experience.
They have to get something to improve their employment prospects.