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An Bord Pleanala overturning large majority of Galway planning decisions

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  • 02-11-2010 5:02pm
    #1
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭


    If my supervisor had to put up with this ratio of contradiction, for any length of time, my ass would be out the door in double time.

    If there are no consequences for incompetence, then we can never expect to have any decent level of muppets exercising their stupidity.


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    #2
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    Gingganggooley wrote: »
    If my supervisor had to put up with this ratio of contradiction, for any length of time, my ass would be out the door in double time.

    If there are no consequences for incompetence, then we can never expect to have any decent level of muppets exercising their stupidity.

    Link / Source ?

    Do people have expectations about muppets exercising stupidity? Surely this is something we don't want. (it's possible you've overloaded my sarcasm detector on this one)


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    #3
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gingganggooley


    http://www.galwaynews.ie/15820-bord-pleanala-overtuning-large-majority-galway-planning-decisions


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    #4
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    Gingganggooley wrote: »
    http://www.galwaynews.ie/15820-bord-pleanala-overtuning-large-majority-galway-planning-decisions

    Thanks for the link... Not surprised really considering some of the zoning ideas that the councils come up with.


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    #5
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Maybe if we could find what the decisions were it'd be easier to understand why they were turned down.


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    #6
    yeehaw
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭yeehaw


    On what planet does 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 qualify as a 'large majority'?


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    #7
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gingganggooley


    yeehaw wrote: »
    On what planet does 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 qualify as a 'large majority'?

    It's sufficent enough to expose the level of incompetence that prevails in that department.


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    #8
    yeehaw
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭yeehaw


    As with anything, you only appeal those decisions that you have a chance of reversing. Can you amend your application between it being rejected by the council and going before an Bord Pleanala?

    whatever way you want to frame it to state it is a large majority is simply wrong if the figures quoted are correct.


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    #9
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gingganggooley


    biko wrote: »
    Maybe if we could find what the decisions were it'd be easier to understand why they were turned down.

    What we would find is that 30-50% of the time yhey are wrong and can continue without any sanctions whatsoever.

    I too would like more transparency, but also a modicum of accountability.


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    #10
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gingganggooley


    yeehaw wrote: »

    whatever way you want to frame it to state it is a large majority is simply wrong if the figures quoted are correct.

    That was the headline pasted from the link. Not mine.


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    #11
    soundbyte
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭soundbyte


    That story is totally wrong, and I can't even be ar$sed downloading the Pleanala report to back myself up.

    What I'm sure it should say is that An Bord Pleanala overturned 1 in every 2 decisions WHICH WERE APPEALED.

    Say 1200 decisions were made, and 10% of these were appealed, that's 120 decisions. If 50% of appeals were successful, then 60 decisions were overturned. That's 5%, not 50%.

    Never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp basic maths.


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    #12
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gingganggooley


    Even if the ratio is from a sample, my point remains the same.

    There are way too many faceless bureaucrats, with too much power, making prosaic resolutions which have profound repercussions for the masses, and yet, when they are challenged and found to be scoring no higher than a C+, are rewarded with permanent residence and immunity from any reform.


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    #13
    dilallio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,728 ✭✭✭dilallio


    Gingganggooley wrote: »
    An Bord Pleanala overturning large majority of Galway planning decisions

    No they haven't - they have overturned 46.8% of Appeals (where people disagreed with the initial Planning Decision), not Decisions.

    I'm afraid that the headline in GalwayNews.ie has got it wrong. Probably another lazy journalist.

    Here is the actual report? If you look at Page 35.

    Galway Co. Council made 2,167 planning decisions in 2009
    122 were appealed.
    57 decisions out of the 122 (46.8%) were reversed.

    That (57 out of 2,167) works out as 2.6% - hardly a large majority.


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    #14
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,967 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Gingganggooley wrote: »
    There are way too many faceless bureaucrats, with too much power, making prosaic resolutions which have profound repercussions for the masses, and yet, when they are challenged and found to be scoring no higher than a C+, are rewarded with permanent residence and immunity from any reform.

    Are planning decisions made by faceless bureaucrats, or by elected councillors? Are there ever situations where elected councillors use political clout to affect planning decisions?

    Do I know someone who voted for the current Galway Co Councillor who was convicted of fraud (against the council, no less) and served a six month prison term, because "sure I had to vote for him, he got my planning for me".


    Grr...


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    #15
    Gingganggooley
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Gingganggooley


    JustMary wrote: »
    Are planning decisions made by faceless bureaucrats, or by elected councillors? Are there ever situations where elected councillors use political clout to affect planning decisions?

    Do I know someone who voted for the current Galway Co Councillor who was convicted of fraud (against the council, no less) and served a six month prison term, because "sure I had to vote for him, he got my planning for me".


    Grr...

    Fair point. It stinks from more than one perspective.


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    #16
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    JustMary wrote: »
    Are planning decisions made by faceless bureaucrats, or by elected councillors? Are there ever situations where elected councillors use political clout to affect planning decisions?

    Yeah - just look around you!
    Planning decisions are made by officials, but can be 'swayed' by elected representatives or 'knowledgeable consultants'. dis is ireland y'see.
    Cllr Josie Conneely applied to have some of his own lands in Clifden rezoned for development even though there was no demand for housing in the area. He abstained from the vote himself and his fellow councillors voted for the rezoning against the wishes of locals and council managers
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/councillor-succeeds-in-getting-his-own-land-rezoned-1720306.html


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    #17
    galwayfellaBETA
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭galwayfellaBETA


    snubbleste wrote: »
    Yeah - just look around you!
    Planning decisions are made by officials, but can be 'swayed' by elected representatives or 'knowledgeable consultants'. dis is ireland y'see.
    Cllr Josie Conneely applied to have some of his own lands in Clifden rezoned for development even though there was no demand for housing in the area. He abstained from the vote himself and his fellow councillors voted for the rezoning against the wishes of locals and council managers
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/councillor-succeeds-in-getting-his-own-land-rezoned-1720306.html

    Another fine example of FF doing what they do best.... that is looking after themselves.

    Regarding An Bord Pleanala.... imho its a good thing that someone can call a halt to some of the useless development that goes on... the country would be in a much better place if we had more of it.


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    #18
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,967 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    snubbleste wrote: »
    Planning decisions are made by officials, but can be 'swayed' by elected representatives or 'knowledgeable consultants'. dis is ireland y'see.
    Cllr Josie Conneely applied to have some of his own lands in Clifden rezoned for development even though there was no demand for housing in the area. He abstained from the vote himself and his fellow councillors voted for the rezoning against the wishes of locals and council managers
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/councillor-succeeds-in-getting-his-own-land-rezoned-1720306.html

    Do you see the contradiction in what you've written?

    AFAIK, the officials make recommendation, based on the fit between the application and the district plan (or whatever) approved by the councillors.

    But at the end of the day, the elected councillors are the ones who make the final decision, by voting. These decisions should be based on the officials recommendations, but sometimes aren't, for reasons which you're well familiar with to be sure, to be sure!

    Happy to hear that I'm wrong ... but if not, don't go blaming council staff for decisions made by the folks you elect.


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    #19
    md12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭md12


    I have to agree with the op. Most people won't pay the 220euro it costs to appeal a decision. Its only when people see the council make a ridiculous decision that they feel strongly enough to appeal.Most applications are fairly straightfoward as regards local development plans etc. 46% of appealed decisions being overturned is a testament to the stupidity of some of the planners in this country. I see the same thing going on in offaly co co. having a bit of pull with the local councillor or TD seems to be the order of the day. The planner gets leaned on and he grants the planning for Joe Bloggs. The planner saves face and then the original objector is 220 out of pocket because the planner doesn't have the b*lls to make the right call.


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    #20
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    md12 wrote: »
    I have to agree with the op. Most people won't pay the 220euro it costs to appeal a decision. Its only when people see the council make a ridiculous decision that they feel strongly enough to appeal.Most applications are fairly straightfoward as regards local development plans etc. 46% of appealed decisions being overturned is a testament to the stupidity of some of the planners in this country. I see the same thing going on in offaly co co. having a bit of pull with the local councillor or TD seems to be the order of the day. The planner gets leaned on and he grants the planning for Joe Bloggs. The planner saves face and then the original objector is 220 out of pocket because the planner doesn't have the b*lls to make the right call.

    Or the planner refuses an applicant permission on the basis of x,y,z. But recommends (directly or indirectly) a planning consultant who would help the applicant improve or modify x,y,z. This costs money. Then the applicant re-applies for permission again and it is granted. This costs money.


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