Formula 1: 2010 Brazilian Grand Prix (Round 18 of 19)

Ghost Train

Surprised by Hamilton stop

Maybe Button will let him past if needed later

Last role of dice for McLaren I guess

amacachi

Forgot they don't wave lapped cars around, ugh.

IM0

Ghost Train wrote: »

Surprised by Hamilton stop

Maybe Button will let him past if needed later

Last role of dice for McLaren I guess

yep they are out of it anyway might as well try something different

Ghost Train

Actually worked ok for McLaren
Must have had window to cars behind

frostie500

Hamilton could be exceptionally dangerous on fresh boots and in P4. This race is far from over.

amacachi

I don't see what's so confusing about what McLaren have done, they've cemented their place and put on fresh tyres for the end of the race so they no worries about excessive tyre-wear etc.

Smart there from Rosberg, last car on the lead lap so was another free pitstop and has lovely super-softs for the last 15 laps.

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

Hamilton could be exceptionally dangerous on fresh boots and in P4. This race is far from over.

Not at all, 9 seconds down across the line, the SC doesn't shake things up without pitstops etc.

amacachi

Has to be a penalty for Alguersari there.

frostie500

amacachi wrote: »

Has to be a penalty for Alguersari there.

THe backmarkers have left a lot to be desired throughout the race havent they?

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

THe backmarkers have left a lot to be desired throughout the race havent they?

Very silly stuff all day.

Ghost Train

Think Massa has been doing a crap job

Should have let Button past instead of trying to fight with the other back marker

IM0

Ghost Train wrote: »

Think Massa has been doing a crap job

Should have let Button past instead of trying to fight with the other back marker

thats very harsh he has done ALOT better than anyone else lapped tbf

Ghost Train

me@ucd wrote: »

thats very harsh he has done ALOT better than anyone else lapped tbf

thought when Webber was lapping him he didn't do a good job... Webber was behind Vettel till Mass got involved earlier in the race. Might have been in an effort to help Alonso but maybe not

Ghost Train

Good weekend for Redbull
Will be interesting to see if Webber has anything to say about it

I suppose we'll have to wait and see if works out for them after the last race

amacachi

Alo: 246
Web: 238 (-8)
Vet: 231 (-15)
Ham: 222 (-24)

Think that's right.

WesternNight

Ghost Train wrote: »

Will be interesting to see if Webber has anything to say about it

Whatever he has to say it won't be said to Vettel!

EvilMonkey

Ghost Train wrote: »

thought when Webber was lapping him he didn't do a good job... Webber was behind Vettel till Mass got involved earlier in the race. Might have been in an effort to help Alonso but maybe not

Wouldn't have anything to do with helping Alonso by making sure Webber didn't catch Vettel too easily?

Massa was grand today would have finished ahead of Hamilton without the pit stop problem, Button was struggling to lap him

So Vettel will have to let Webber by in Abu Dhabi if its finishing the same order as today?
Should have just got it done today, it will be good to have Webber owing you one next year.

Red bull deserve the constructors championship best car all season should have warped the title up ages ago.

amacachi

Just did a quick totting-up there, if they were using the same points system as last year the point would be as follows:

Alonso: 99
Webber: 96
Vettel: 94
Hamilton: 92

Amazingly similar to what there is now, the current points system has made it a little harder for Hamilton and Vettel than it would've been last year but it's made very little difference really.

WesternNight

Christian Horner: "we've backed them equally all year" :rolleyes:

Ghost Train

I guess fair play to Redbull to let it go all the way for both drivers even at the risk of helping out Alonso

Thought Massa as a backmarker could have made it easier for the leaders but since he got no penalties maybe he behaved ok

EvilMonkey

I hate trophies in the shape of sponsors logos, epically when its a piece of cheap recycled plastic! :pac:

Ghost Train

Thought it was interesting to hear that Michael left Nico past towards the end of the race, because he was on older tires. Looks like very competitive between them but must be reasonable working relationship

EvilMonkey

Ghost Train wrote: »

Thought it was interesting to hear that Michael left Nico past towards the end of the race, because he was on older tires. Looks like very competitive between them but must be reasonable working relationship

Cynic in me says if he thought Rosberg would pass him anyway, why not jet him go then tell everyone you let him pass and have Rosberg owe you one.

frostie500

Have to say that was a pretty enjoyable race but it seemed that we kept being robbed a true battle at the front. Webber had great pace at certain stages but kept getting bottled up by backmarkers. Could have been a great fight but it does set things up well for Abu Dhabi.

My race report is available now

Charlie-Bravo

yeah, I think if the backmarkers were allowed to unlap themselves and the true positions line astern behind the safety car would have made the final laps more interesting, and possibly more risker as it would be wheel to wheel rather than just overtaking backmarkers.

I think if Red Bull really wanted the Drivers Championship they would have told Vettle to give the position up. I have a sneaking feeling Reb Bull, due to the out spoken nature of Webber are teaching him a lesson. If he is the better driver, he has to win it on his own with no help from his team mate. The other side of it is that I don't think Vettle would accept such a request.

Vettle just reminds me of Schumacher and Ferrari...it's all about him and the team. I remember when Irvine was at Ferrari, and Schumacher had that accident early on in the season, Irvine had the chance to be the first to take the driver's title but I do really think Ferrari back then held off for Schumacher to do it the next year. Similarly, I think Red Bull do not want to ask Vettle to move over to make the chances better; if Webber wins, they will be happy but not at the expense of upsetting their little protege.

lord lucan

Enjoyed yesterdays race. I had to laugh at Hamilton doing another one of his whiny child acts,"i've no grip,i've no grip"!! He really does throw the toys out of the pram when he's not happy or it's not going for him.

Set up for a cracker in Abu Dhabi,i'm really hoping the top 4 just go for it and throw caution to the wind.

frostie500

lord lucan wrote: »

Enjoyed yesterdays race. I had to laugh at Hamilton doing another one of his whiny child acts,"i've no grip,i've no grip"!! He really does throw the toys out of the pram when he's not happy or it's not going for him

I think Martin Brundle hit the nail on the head with Hamilton's comments of this nature. It doesnt give the team any information on how to solve the problem so it is just Lewis rationalising why he is struggling to overtake someone. I thought it was a great point made by Brundle and one that many, including myself, had overlooked

Cookie_Monster

backmarkers really ruined the race I think. Especially under the safety car, they should be forced to move over so the whole grid can regain correct position, totally ridiculous that they don't and the leaders have to try and pass then at the restart while they're already racing with each other

Oh and that trophy was one of the worst I've ever seen, who the **** want a crappy piece of plastic for winning a race?

Vegeta

frostie500 wrote: »

I think Martin Brundle hit the nail on the head with Hamilton's comments of this nature. It doesnt give the team any information on how to solve the problem so it is just Lewis rationalising why he is struggling to overtake someone. I thought it was a great point made by Brundle and one that many, including myself, had overlooked

It was a good point. I cant remember the exact order of the radio messages, was he told by his engineer to do everything to pass Hulkenberg and then came back on the radio complaining about the lack of grip.

I usually detest whiny bitch drivers but Lewis didn't set me off yesterday.

Thought it was a good race but as others have said it was ruined by back markers, did Webber get under 2 seconds to Vettel at one point? Then they hit the train of 8 drivers and it was race over.

In one way I respect Red Bull for allowing the guys to race and giving no orders but cant help feeling that they handed Alonso the title on Sunday.

How important was that Massa pass now eh?

Ghost Train

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

backmarkers really ruined the race I think. Especially under the safety car, they should be forced to move over so the whole grid can regain correct position, totally ridiculous that they don't and the leaders have to try and pass then at the restart while they're already racing with each other

Oh and that trophy was one of the worst I've ever seen, who the **** want a crappy piece of plastic for winning a race?

Backmarkers ruined it a bit for me too. Would there be any problem with the fia allowing the cars to reorder themselves in race order, so every one on the lead lap could move to the front of the pack and anyone a few laps down most to the back. That way it's a straight fight between all involved. They already have timing info to control the cars pace when safety car comes out, why not a system to tell them to position themselves 2 or three cars forward or back from their current position. Do understand it could turn into one big mess but could give the car one or two laps at the end of the safety car period to do it

Vegeta

LIGHTNING wrote: »

How so? If Alonso throws it off next weekend and Vettel is winning he can win the WC. It made perfect sense for the two RB guys to keep racing, if the same happens next week Vettel will pull over. He would be the biggest selfish git if he didnt do so and any half decent driver would pull over to let his teammate win the WC.

EDIT: Never mind I made a balls of that post.

All things considered, reliability, driver error etc if I were a team boss I would rather have Webber 1 point behind than the current situation.

frostie500

I think its commendable that Red Bull didnt emply team orders but it's a shortsighted decision that could easily come back to bite the team. While Vettel is still in contention his hopes are hanging by a thread-he needs Alonso to finish outside the top four(not likely barring mechanical problems) and instead of Webber needing just a win he now has to rely on Alonso finishing below third. It's a can of worms that could have been easily avoided by telling Vettel to allow Webber past.

Below is a link to a post on my site that might of interest. It also goes into one of the possible situations that could arise if Alonso does retire.

Red Bull wins the Brazilian battle, could could have cost itself the war

Myrddin

lord lucan wrote: »

Enjoyed yesterdays race. I had to laugh at Hamilton doing another one of his whiny child acts,"i've no grip,i've no grip"!! He really does throw the toys out of the pram when he's not happy or it's not going for him.

Set up for a cracker in Abu Dhabi,i'm really hoping the top 4 just go for it and throw caution to the wind.

frostie500 wrote: »

I think Martin Brundle hit the nail on the head with Hamilton's comments of this nature. It doesnt give the team any information on how to solve the problem so it is just Lewis rationalising why he is struggling to overtake someone. I thought it was a great point made by Brundle and one that many, including myself, had overlooked

Brundle is indeed right, but the guy is only human too. It must be hugely frustrating to see the opposition pull away while your struggling with understeer, & trying to fight for the championship at the same time. It's rationalisation, frustration, anger, & disappointment all in one go. Button had big grip issues too, so it's not purely a 'Hamilmoan'. Its like a desperate plea shrouded in seething anger at the car & it's lack of consistency.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If he stoppped wrecking his tyres as soon as he gets them he might stop getting huge amounts of understeer.

He's a racer, there were two races left for the title...I'd expect him to gun it. Would you really expect him to sit back & let the title slip without a fight?

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

He's a racer, there were two races left for the title...I'd expect him to gun it. Would you really expect him to sit back & let the title slip without a fight?

Gunning it is what cost him the 2007 title, and a chance with this one with the DNFs in Italy and Singapore, though the Singapore one wasn't really his fault.

Myrddin

It's all easy to say from the comfort of a chair. I highly doubt if any of us were sitting at the wheel of that McLaren with two races to go & a big lead to make up, that we'd be thinking strategically. The car is lacking downforce/grip, even Button who is superb at minding his tyres has been struggling with tyre wear & lack of grip. It was either gun it & hope for the best, or mind your tyres accept defeat & be happy he was a championship contender. I don't think he's that kind of driver really.

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

It's all easy to say from the comfort of a chair. I highly doubt if any of us were sitting at the wheel of that McLaren with two races to go & a big lead to make up, that we'd be thinking strategically. The car is lacking downforce/grip, even Button who is superb at minding his tyres has been struggling with tyre wear & lack of grip. It was either gun it & hope for the best, or mind your tyres accept defeat & be happy he was a championship contender. I don't think he's that kind of driver really.

It is easy for us to say, but other drivers seem to be able to keep their heads and think logically during a race.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

It is easy for us to say, but other drivers seem to be able to keep their heads and think logically during a race.

Well Alonso & the RB's are comfortable in the hunt, so you won't see steam until the weekend. Button was too far downfield in Korea to see steam & effectively saw him out of the hunt. Hamilton was just lying in the spot between keeping contention & dropping out...thats why he drove over the limit. Nobody else is in the hunt, so any steam you see from the rest is purely race-by-race.

frostie500

EnterNow wrote: »

It's all easy to say from the comfort of a chair. I highly doubt if any of us were sitting at the wheel of that McLaren with two races to go & a big lead to make up, that we'd be thinking strategically. The car is lacking downforce/grip, even Button who is superb at minding his tyres has been struggling with tyre wear & lack of grip. It was either gun it & hope for the best, or mind your tyres accept defeat & be happy he was a championship contender. I don't think he's that kind of driver really.

He's one of the highest paid drivers on the grid, and a world champion, so he should be capable of making his tyres last throughout a race. Schumacher was one of the most aggressive drivers in history but he also knew that the fastest way to the flag wasnt always driving flat out. I'm surprised with Hamilton though because at some stages this year we have seen a newfound maturity

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You can drive hard without wrecking your tyres, plenty of other drivers on the grid managed to do it over the weekend.

In the McLaren?

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

In the McLaren?

It's happened before this season when Button could manage them and Lewis couldn't, it's also happened the other way when Button way overdrove his car trying to get heat into his tyres. Hamilton seems to just have no internal modulator, it's all or nothing and that's it.

Also it's not just this season I'm talking about, look at Italy I think last year when he had a podium in the bag and on the last or second last lap smashed his car up.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

it's all or nothing and that's it.

Agreed, & that shows he still has some maturing to do. I just think it's a bit short-sighted the way Hamilton is in the firing line, when in fact the tyres on both McLarens went off, one at the hands of a really good tyre minder. It's easy to blame the agressive driver for it, but it's clearly not the only problem.

Vegeta

EnterNow wrote: »

Agreed, & that shows he still has some maturing to do. I just think it's a bit short-sighted the way Hamilton is in the firing line, when in fact the tyres on both McLarens went off, one at the hands of a really good tyre minder. It's easy to blame the agressive driver for it, but it's clearly not the only problem.

The car is fundamentally too slow and that's it.

Hamilton (and Button in this race) could probably have driven more conservatively and saved the tyres for a bit but he was trying to catch 3 faster cars/drivers. He had to push to do this and in doing so the tyres didn't last.

Rock and a hard place. If the car had the performance he wouldn't have to dog the thing and the tyres would last.

Saying that there are race engineers sitting in the comfort of a chair and people back at the factory, they could tell him to take it a little easier to preserve tyres. I don't think it would have mattered here though as the top 3 would just pull further away if he went into tyre saving mode.

It's a compromise between drive hard, catch and overtake. When you get in front your tyres might not be best but the guy behind is in dirty air now and will find it tough to get past. OR protect tyres, but if the pace isn't there and the leaders are pulling away when you are both saving tyres then what can you do really

EvilMonkey

EnterNow wrote: »

Agreed, & that shows he still has some maturing to do. I just think it's a bit short-sighted the way Hamilton is in the firing line, when in fact the tyres on both McLarens went off, one at the hands of a really good tyre minder. It's easy to blame the agressive driver for it, but it's clearly not the only problem.

Easier to blame the car. The tyres were ok for what they needed at that point. He was faster than the cars behind the ones he need to build a gap from to get the pit stop without being stuck behind them. Did he want them to pit him early and put him into traffic? Because i remember another race they did that and he couldn't overtake and came over the radio saying it was a stupid idea.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I dont think the McLaren is slow, its better on some tracks than the RB6 and the Ferrari.

It's visibly slower than the RB6 & the Ferarri in the hands of Alonso. It's not slow per se, but its nowhere near where it needs to be in terms of pace.

frostie500

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I dont think the McLaren is slow, its better on some tracks than the RB6 and the Ferrari. The problem is that the Red Bull was untouchable this weekend and no amount of pushing by the McLarens was going to catch them.

Great point Lightning, none of the leading cars are slow. Its just that in a season as competitive as this we all notice shortcomings from both teams and drivers. With the pressure on everyone it is understandable that we have seen driver and team errors. Brazil suited the Red Bull more than the McLaren just as McLaren had an advantage at certain races. It's a shame for us that Lewis had his DNFs-especially Spain and Hungary-but its a similar story for all the contenders-each has somewhere that cost them points that with them could see a totally different championship table. fascinating season on so many levels because of this competition and in my mind at least we've gained a great insight into the psyche of each leading driver

lord lucan

Anyone else think that Andrea Stella(Alonso's race engineer) sounds like the Count from Sesame st.? I do be in stitches laughing every time he comes on the radio!




Fernando,there are TWO cars in front of you AH AH AH AH AH!:D

Ghost Train

McLaren seem to be fine in a straight line but they're just not generating the downforce or grip in the higher speed corners

Ferrari seem to be closer to RedBull in the races but qualifying shows they're still a bit off

amacachi

I'm wondering if Button's tyres did go off yesterday, I thought he just pitted early to get out of the pack

amacachi

I also have to question where McLaren will be going from here with Button and Hamilton. Button is known to be poor at car set-up and I've not heard any praise for Hamilton in that regard either. Have they got a decent test driver?