Student Protest Kicks Off (see video only posts warning)

Byron85

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

One has to ask: if the Leftist bloc wasn't acting troublesome, why did the Gardaí respond? Tens of thousands of regular students managed to march today without getting into any trouble with the Gardaí. It's quite obvious that this violence was the work of rogues.

One can only imagine what these people would do if they were given some real power. The way in which the hard Leftists conducts themselves politically is reason enough to keep them out of positions in which they might actually have some influence over this country.

As opposed to those on the hard Right? That reminds me of that Bill Bailey joke: "Who'd call a horse Hitler? Hitler coming up on the right, or is it the left?"

I'm "hard Left" apparently but I see myself as more pragmatic than anything else. Were there rogues? Possibly but there were possibly rogues in the Gardai too. They are well known to be rather happy to baton people when they feel the urge. Tie that in with the fact that we have one of the most secretive police forces in the world and it makes for a winning combination.

I'm sorry, but I feel that a sit in on a road or in the Department of Finance is an entirely legitimate form of protest as long as no violence is involved.

As for the person who suggested that the Gardai were "assaulted" by people who threw eggs in their direction, they should really look up the definition of the word. I've been in a few physical alterations over the years. An egg is an egg. Not a boot to the head.

Scofflaw

Byron85 wrote: »

As opposed to those on the hard Right? That reminds me of that Bill Bailey joke: "Who'd call a horse Hitler? Hitler coming up on the right, or is it the left?"

I'm "hard Left" apparently but I see myself as more pragmatic than anything else. Were there rogues? Possibly but there were possibly rogues in the Gardai too. They are well known to be rather happy to baton people when they feel the urge. Tie that in with the fact that we have one of the most secretive police forces in the world and it makes for a winning combination.

I'm sorry, but I feel that a sit in on a road or in the Department of Finance is an entirely legitimate form of protest as long as no violence is involved.

As for the person who suggested that the Gardai were "assaulted" by people who threw eggs in their direction; they should really look up the definition of the word. I've been in a few physical alterations over the years. An egg is an egg. Not a boot to the head.

Here you go - the definition of assault from the "Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997":

2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—


(a) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another, or


(b) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact,


without the consent of the other.


(2) In subsection (1) (a), “force” includes—


(a) application of heat, light, electric current, noise or any other form of energy, and


(b) application of matter in solid liquid or gaseous form.


(3) No such offence is committed if the force or impact, not being intended or likely to cause injury, is in the circumstances such as is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life and the defendant does not know or believe that it is in fact unacceptable to the other person.


(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

Definitely covers throwing an egg at someone, I'm afraid. If throwing the egg causes any actual harm, you're up a notch:

3.—(1) A person who assaults another causing him or her harm shall be guilty of an offence.


(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—


(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to both, or


(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both.

and if it's against a Garda or an emergency services worker, you go up against another notch:

19.—(1) Any person who—
[GA]

( a ) assaults a peace officer acting in the execution of the peace officer's duty, knowing that he is, or being reckless as to whether he is, a peace officer acting in the execution of his duty, or
[GA]

( b ) assaults any other person acting in the aid of a peace officer, or
[GA]

( c ) assaults any other person with intent to resist or prevent the lawful apprehension or detention of himself or any other person for any offence,
[GA]

shall be guilty of an offence.
[GA]

(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable—
[GA]

( a ) having elected for summary disposal of the offence, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to both,
[GA]

( b ) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both.
[GA]

(3) Any person who resists or wilfully obstructs a peace officer acting in the execution of his duty or a person assisting a peace officer in the execution of his duty, knowing that he is or being reckless as to whether he is, a peace officer acting in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence.
[GA]

(4) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (3) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.
[GA]

(5) The provisions of this section are in addition to and not in substitution of any provision in any other enactment relating to assault or obstruction of a peace officer.

So, if one does look up the definition of assault, one finds that it covers egg throwing, and can be more serious if, for example, you manage to hit them in the eye - actually, that's more probably "assault causing serious harm", which is a grade above "assault causing harm".

There may actually be a reason we have these laws other than just for the oppression of students.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Wolfe Tone

Ah thats beautiful. Egg on his face now! haha

depaly

I've little doubt that eirigi, and to a certain
extent the SWP, will be well satisfied with
today's violence.

People need to wake up, and ensure that their
justifiable anger is not used by others, for
their own ends.

Don't be sucked into anything silly, lads.
If you end up with a baton to the head, or
some jailtime - it will only be grist to their
mill..... Don't be used......

Look at what the loony left are up to in
Greece at the moment!!!!!

Byron85

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Ah thats beautiful. Egg on his face now! haha

I hate Scofflaw for being ridiculously anal and I hate you for that awesome pun.:mad::D


Either way, it's an egg and my point still stands.

deise go deo

Byron85 wrote: »

I hate Scofflaw for being ridiculously anal and I hate you for that awesome pun.:mad::D


Either way, it's an egg and my point still stands.

Well, as far as I know, eggs were not all that was thrown, Three gardí were injured, or so I have heard.

Sandvich

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Ah, conspiracy theories, got to love that.

There were actual videos shown of this, it's not so much a conspiracy of gards being generally incompetent.

Sandvich

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Intentional provocation is the central part of the extreme protester's toolbox. We've seen it before, we'll see it again: the Gardaí are provoked into responding to some kind of nuisance protester, who will then try to paint himself as some innocent angel being attacked by a bully.

One has to ask: if the Leftist bloc wasn't acting troublesome, why did the Gardaí respond? Tens of thousands of regular students managed to march today without getting into any trouble with the Gardaí. It's quite obvious that this violence was the work of rogues.

One can only imagine what these people would do if they were given some real power. The way in which the hard Leftists conducts themselves politically is reason enough to keep them out of positions in which they might actually have some influence over this country.

Funny how nobody claimed this was a conspiracy theory even though it reads more like one. Hmm.

I'm sure when we're all Freebertarians nothing like this will happen.

muffy

Overheal wrote: »

Weren't they allowed to peacefully protest though? From what I'm reading, things only took a bad turn when the USI/crowd started throwing things at the AGS, and a group of students broke into Finance.
With respect, that sounds utterly unsound. You think protesters will respond to some stranger manhandling them, or cuffing them? how long until people just start beating the pulp out of eachother because they think they're all undercover cops?

I'm sorry but decades of Crowd Control in action stand against your theory.

just to point out the protesters sitting in the Dept of Finance were in there long before any violence erupted

Sandvich

I have to say that a pretty poor tactic is being used here - using (somewhat minimal) violence being used to discredit the protest as a whole.

Generally when we see "riots in the streets", it's not a good thing, but we take it as an indicator that something is wrong with the country. Riots are, not always, but often seen as an almost inevitable reaction to things going horribly wrong.

Yet people in this thread are trying to pass the buck back entirely to the protesters. It's not a sociological reaction, it's just them dastardly hard leftists acting up again.

I don't buy the concerned citizen stance, from the smug undertones in some of these posts I find it hard to believe people really give a toss about someone getting a punch in the face, in fact they practically require it to happen to justify their position.

The Irish people are well whipped and thoroughly dishonest.

AlekSmart

I'm not disputing that there was an element of hijack here. I'm talking about the subsequent reaction from Templemores finest.

Does anybody have stats for how many of "Templemore`s Finest" are third level graduates themselves..?

Sandvich

Denerick wrote: »

As much as I loathe the tea partiers, at least they only shout at rallies, they never engage in violence and are constantly cleaning up all their litter after themselves. Irish loons could learn a lot from American loons.

Uh that's not quite true at all.

http://fromtheleft.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/pittsburgh-cop-killer-obama-scheming-to-take-my-guns/

There's a couple of cases like this, like the guy who went to shoot up the Tides institute because Glenn Beck told him it was a socialist conspiracy.

Also you're still working backwards from the supposed fact that the protest as a whole was violent.

Sandvich

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

If he is breaking the law refusing to move you arrest him. Not crack his head open.

There were several students with head and facial injuries today. Its clear from the videos that these were inflicted by a Garda batton.

This is the crux of it for me - regardless of what has happened, you can't endorse police brutality directly or indirectly and expect people to consider you a reasonable citizen.

Even if what was done was illegal, you don't beat the **** out of them for it. If they're caught breaking the law they should be charged and arrested. Bashing someone DOWN does nothing to help them up. This isn't Life on Mars.

Sandvich

gandalf wrote: »

Seriously how can anyone say that a selective clip is proof of anything. We do not know or see the events that preceeded the clip. Either engage in discussion here or save those type of posts for After Hours.

Your side keeps saying this, but you have even less proof.

Sandvich

creativedrinker wrote: »

I was there today when this happened, people were sitting on the road chanting we shall not be moved. No violence involved, then when the cops backed off they stood again....

Then the riot police came in and people sat, Someone flung a Garda hat in the air and it was like a starting flag, the cops just started swinging at the people... They started to back off and the cops stoped for a few mins... Then again they started again waking whoever was in their way... Me and others were backed down a alley across from the building to get away from the cops hitting us, then they came down with dogs after us n made us come out behind the riot police where bottles ect were flying.. Loads of people were freaking out wanting to go the other way but we were forced into the crowd again where more people were hit.

When we were going out some journalist was taking pics from behind the police, 2 cops grabbed her and started dragging her away, one hit her,

It was crazy... The police just turned into animals... If the students had weapons or were fighting it would be a bit more acceptable but there was nothing but a few chants...

I see protests like that being more of a success than walking up a street but I still don't think it will work thanks to buffo bailing out his friends in the banks... The bankers responsible should be locked up!!!!

I've more inclined to believe words like this of someone who was actually there than some armchair conservative moaning about students.

cushtac

jock101 wrote: »

Known mentally ill man!:rolleyes: With a short range shotgun, they could have easily shot him in the leg or arm! Not execute him! Amateur thugs!

1. They did shoot him in the legs, it just happened to kill him.

2. I wonder if you'd dismiss the dangers of a shotgun so readily if it was being fired at you.

thebman

Most if not all the videos here posted show are half way through incidents with the prior part of how the police ended up in that situation being removed.

Only an idiot would believe such video's to be indicative of what was going on TBH.

Even if someone looks like they were a peaceful protester, they could have moments before the video started (in the cut out part), have been violent protesters that then dived back into the peaceful crowd.

It doesn't prove anything unless you see full unedited footage and so far nothing looks liike it didn't have the early parts cut out on this thread TBH and I've watched most of them, read most of the posts and seen the videos on rte.ie.

I have to go with the police did their jobs TBH.

AlekSmart

Innocent gadai strike again. The private army of the untouchables strikes again towards the small man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWact...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Vzw...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-7lT7Wb1GY

Innocent men and women, smashed in the head with batons, kicked in the face and attacked from anything to horses to dogs cruelly abused.

Scumbag gardai the lot of them.

From viewing the vid`s supplied by TAHT, I`d be far more concerned about the Gardai`s training and use of tactics on the day.

Just look at the positioning of the members in Merrion Row....From what I can see they are actually hemmed in on all sides by Student Protesters.

Now the VAST majority of these bore no ill-intent to the Gardai,BUT,in a Public Order situation an individual Garda has little or no time to make his/her mind up on that point.

Time and Time again when I see recordings of Garda Public Order situations I see the Gardai themselves in far more danger than the protesters.

There is little doubt that the line between the Civic Gard and the Gendarmerie approach is being strained here at long last.

What will probably happen IF the Students (and other disaffected groups) keep up the pressure is that the Government will be forced to ratchet up the Gardai`s Public Order Tactics and many peoples will not like that one bit.

I still use the Ceaucescu Helicopter flit from Bucharests Govt Buildings as the template most likely being viewed by Brian Cowen and Co Ltd.

What happens,for example,if the Gardai`s pay and conditions are revised down and further ?

At what point does Brian Cowen & Company expect Garda loyalty to start to breakdown ?

Will there be enough Loyal Members left to keep the Gates of Leinster House dúnta whilst the Aer Corp Helicopter lifts Brian and his pals off the roof and into exile off the coast of Offaly...?

This State is royally banjaxed,and no amount of protesting and baton-weilding can disguise the bare facts of Bankruptcy and what is coming down the tracks with it`s horn blowing...The Hairshirt Express ! :eek:

Meanwhile The Gards need to get themselves some Tactics before they find themselves in real difficulties !!!!

PS: I wonder if our Students will be consulting with their UK bretheren who might be said to have a bigger bone to chew with their (Coalition !) Government after yesterdays Good News Day over there ??

Scofflaw

Sandvich wrote: »

Your side keeps saying this, but you have even less proof.

Sandvich, how about you don't assume there are "sides" here, but rather just people with opinions?

moderately,
Scofflaw

Nehaxak

From what I've seen of all the videos out there, the Gardaí were actually very reserved in their approach and it's quiet clear that some of the students complaining have never even seen the Gardaí in full swing to quell disturbances or protests that have got out of hand.

I've seen the Gardaí where I live quell full on mini riots in the past here, including those involving running gun battles between gangs and it's never taken them any more than 20 minutes to bring it all under control. Fast, professional, extremely violent but every time totally warranted and every time they've brought the situations under complete control within minutes of them taking action.

Those students got off VERY lightly at that march, considering the childish egg and bottle throwing that was going on that was aimed at and was goading the Gardaí intentionally.

If you can't make your points without resorting to violence then you've no chance looking for sympathy from the general public when the Gardaí have to do their job and stop you.
The country is on the verge of utter collapse and if there were any large group organised and intent enough, they'd be thinking of forcibly ejecting FF from government and would probably get a large public support for their actions - hence the Gardaí are on alert for any such possibilities, as I'm sure the army are too and hence the escape tunnels that run under the Dáil are open, serviced and security employed along same in case they're needed.
Don't en-flame the Gardaí who are already on edge and just out doing their job - they're only human and just like you have to put up with the cuts in wages, resources or whatever being imposed by shítty politicians who've ruined this country with their intentional incompetence.

I wouldn't even bother protesting against FF any more, their party is finished and they know it. Go complain and protest against the opposition parties for doing little or nothing to force FF out of power because they themselves haven't got the balls to put any of their own solutions forward to deal with the mess and are instead just content to let the country sink under FF so they can always in the future put the blame squarely at their feet, rather than step up and step in now to sort the shít out themselves.
Out of all of the opposition parties, the one that could now have done the most damage to FF to force them out, is SF with their recent court action over the by elections in Donegal (or lack of even).

You'll grab a bigger headline and get more support if you protested against FG and Labour for sitting on their fat lazy arses just watching the ship sink.

Scofflaw

Sandvich wrote: »

I've more inclined to believe words like this of someone who was actually there than some armchair conservative moaning about students.

Eyewitness accounts are, in fact, notoriously unreliable, particularly in any confused crowd situation. If someone in the crowd doesn't see anything thrown at the police, then all that proves is that they didn't see anything thrown at the police - but that can be because they weren't looking at the time, weren't looking in the right direction, couldn't have seen it from their vantage point, didn't understand what they had seen, etc, which is why single witness accounts are very poor testimony.

If someone is in a public order situation that gets ugly, and they didn't see what started it, then the best that can be said for the explanation that "the Gards just went mental" is that they're honestly reflecting their personal and subjective experience of events, admittedly from a prejudiced position that assumes the Gardai are willing to act without provocation in public order situations.

However, absence of evidence is, as they say, different from evidence of absence - and in this case we have other eye-witness accounts which do include the throwing of things at the Gardai.

One can reasonably either discount all eye-witness testimony, or one can reasonably base one's views on all the available testimony, but one cannot pick and choose one's eye-witness testimony.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Di0genes

PanchoVilla wrote: »

This was an intentional act by the Gardaí and the government to intimidate the general public and deter future protesters from taking action. It happens all the time and usually it works. Do you remember the Reclaim the Streets demo a few years back where Gardaí violently attacked peaceful protesters? The organizers decided not to hold any more demos because of the fear of more police brutality.

Now this is complete bollocks. There was a demonstration against police brutality days after the may day protest. There was a other reclaim the streets the August bank holiday weekend that same year. And other the next may bank holiday. I think they kept going for about three years afterwards.

Di0genes

20Cent wrote: »

Remember the reclaim the streets incident. A Gard bashing some kid in the middle of Dame St on the 6 O'Clock news. No case against him. The Guard I mean.

In every instance the Garda were forced to admit that they used force, and in one instance a Garda (the infamous Robocop) was forced to admit that he used excessive force.

In ever instance the Garda were acquitted by the jury. And looking at this thread, I'm not surprised. All it takes is one or two jurors with the same attitude as some of the posters on this thread, (filthy hippies deserved a good kicking) and the Garda gets off.

Whats never mentioned is that there were 20 plus civil suits taken against the Garda, and pretty much every one was settled on the steps of the four courts for in and around 30k apiece. The Garda knew that there's no way they could get away with those cases.

I should know, I shot the video footage, and testified against every Gardai.

gandalf

Sandvich wrote: »

Your side keeps saying this, but you have even less proof.

What side. If you read some of my other posts you will see that I clearly state that the students have a right to protest and a legitimate gripe to protest regarding the so called hike in "registration" fees (the government should just call them fees at this stage).

The fact is the protest was hijacked by a minority of extremist who just wanted to cause trouble and unfortunately what I would class as an otherwise well behaved, successful and large protest has been besmirched by the actions of this minority.

Lenny Lovett

I was chatting to my Niece and her friend last night - both first year students at UCD - and they said they were horrified by the behaviour of many of their fellow Students yesterday. They said that many of those on the parade were drunk and drugged and saw lots of them - not political activists but students - throwing stuff at the Guards. She said that they were encouraged to gather stuff on the way up to Nassau St to throw at the Guards after. She was also saying that some of these guys were behaving like louts in town before and after the parade. Her conclusion is that she wouldn't have anything to do with student marches again. The Gurads should have wheeled out the water cannon.

I'm no fan of the Government or their recent policies but taking out ones anger on the Gardai is not the answer. They're doing a job and doing it well.

20Cent

If people want to sit in the road whats the problem?
Leave them there let them have their protest no need to batton charge them.
Guards totally over reacted as usual. Getting some practice in for future protests I reckon.

Di0genes

20Cent wrote: »

If people want to sit in the road whats the problem?
Leave them there let them have their protest no need to batton charge them.
Guards totally over reacted as usual. Getting some practice in for future protests I reckon.

Disruption of traffic on a busy city street, and disruption of work in the department of Finance are big deals.

Lenny Lovett

20Cent wrote: »

If people want to sit in the road whats the problem?

Well, maybe it has something to do with the fact that obstructing a public highway is against the law?:rolleyes: I would've thought our "Future Leaders" would have the cop on to realise that...

20Cent wrote: »

Guards totally over reacted as usual. Getting some practice in for future protests I reckon.

So the Guards should just turn a blind eye to all offences and public disorder should they? You're gas!:rolleyes:

20Cent

Di0genes wrote: »

Disruption of traffic on a busy city street, and disruption of work in the department of Finance are big deals.

Not in my opinion.
Not worth cracking someones skull over.

20Cent

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Well, maybe it has something to do with the fact that obstructing a public highway is against the law?:rolleyes: I would've thought our "Future Leaders" would have the cop on to realise that...

So the Guards should just turn a blind eye to all offences and public disorder should they? You're gas!:rolleyes:

Sitting on the road. So what. Divert traffic for a few hours problem solved.
Laying in with battons is a lot worse.

Lenny Lovett

20Cent wrote: »

Sitting on the road. So what. Divert traffic for a few hours problem solved.
Laying in with battons is a lot worse.

Well if you're a student/future leader, I can sleep soundly knowing my future is in safe hands...:rolleyes:

20Cent

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Well if you're a student/future leader, I can sleep soundly knowing my future is in safe hands...:rolleyes:

I'm not a student anyway. Still hitting people with battons is the last resort imho. Rolleyes all you like.

gandalf

Di0genes wrote: »

Disruption of traffic on a busy city street, and disruption of work in the department of Finance are big deals.

Not to mention that missiles are being thrown from the crowd, it doesn't matter that its being perpetrated by a minority in the crowd the whole crowd has to be dealt with and dispersed at that stage. Unfortunately if members of that crowd refuse to comply with the instructions from the Gardai force has to be used.

Stabshauptmann

Daddio wrote: »

Ridiculous.

Why the anti-student sentiment? Do people want a drop in the number of skilled workers in the Ireland?

Yes actually.

The accounting, legal, actuary, architecture bodies etc have all been increasing their fail rates in an effort to reduce the number of qualified professionals in their fields because there simply isn't work.

Do they want a higher percentage of their taxes being directed towards the student grants authority?

Nobody wants to change the current threshold for means testing. They want less money being spent on education.

Do they want to have to contribute more money to their children's education?

I personally would take the money that goes on J1 holidays, inter-railing and the gap year in Oz and put that towards their college fees.

What's the alternative for people leaving education after secondary school? Tradespeople are hardly required - feck all building being done. Work in the local shop? Go on the dole? Leave the country?

I'm not happy that you lumped "work in the local shop" in with emigrate or the dole. Personally, I think too many college students are pretentious ****es who view far too many jobs as beneath them.

At least there is some group keep the Irish government on their toes. If they fear large scale protests like this in anticipation of further unfair cuts, perhaps they won't make as much stupid mistakes.

Actually its the opposite. The government is afraid to make the cuts it needs to because its afraid of vocal privileged groups:
Starting salary in Financial Regulator's graduate programme for 2010 (most recent public jobs recruitment) was 30k. Starting salary in private sector professional position 22k.
It boggles the mind.

Student fees currently 1.5k p/a. Talk of increasing them to 3k.
You yourself have made it clear in your post that you view professional jobs as far superior to trades, retail etc.
You want to earn the big bucks [sic] in 3/4 years time? Then invest in your education.

Primary education is a right, secondary education the mark of a civilised country, third level education is a privilege / commodity.

It wasn't me!

If elements of the protest wish to present an anti-authority front by attacking the arm of the state responsible for maintaining order, then the entire protest is going to be dispersed with authority and alacrity. That's just how it's going to go and it's extremely important that that be the result.

20Cent

It wasn't me! wrote: »

If elements of the protest wish to present an anti-authority front by attacking the arm of the state responsible for maintaining order, then the entire protest is going to be dispersed with authority and alacrity. That's just how it's going to go and it's extremely important that that be the result.

Charming.
Like the Gov are doing such a great job at the moment.
Knocking teenage girls unconscious in the street, good work fellas.

ISP_dude

If I was still a student, I'd be pee'd off. Not only will they be paying more fees, but when they graduate they'll most likely be hitting the dole queues.

Still, shame the SWP hijacked the student protest. It's a pity the students can't just have a protest about college fees without the SWP getting involved. WTF have the SWP got to do with it anyway? They seem to use these student protests as a recruitment fair...

It wasn't me!

20Cent wrote: »

Charming.
Like the Gov are doing such a great job at the moment.
Knocking teenage girls unconscious in the street, good work fellas.

Yes, charming indeed. Pragmatism isn't pretty and life isn't fair. When we have an election, get rid of the government then. Rioting in the streets? What has that achieved here? The Gardai operate on the basis that enforcing the peace is the imperative. They didn't start the trouble yesterday. Nobody would have gotten a smack had there not been crowd aggression.

Di0genes

ISP_dude wrote: »

If I was still a student, I'd be pee'd off. Not only will they be paying more fees, but when they graduate they'll most likely be hitting the dole queues.

Still, shame the SWP hijacked the student protest. It's a pity the students can't just have a protest about college fees without the SWP getting involved. WTF have the SWP got to do with it anyway? They seem to use these student protests as a recruitment fair...

Hijacking legitimate anger is the SWP's Raison d'être. Get young idealistic students early in fresher week, and get them signed up, use them as glorified paper boys and girls, to sell their rag, Within a few weeks they get fed up with "politics" and give up. The SWP is the most harmful organisation for young left wing student politics in this country.

AlekSmart

I was chatting to my Niece and her friend last night - both first year students at UCD - and they said they were horrified by the behaviour of many of their fellow Students yesterday. They said that many of those on the parade were drunk and drugged and saw lots of them - not political activists but students - throwing stuff at the Guards. She said that they were encouraged to gather stuff on the way up to Nassau St to throw at the Guards after. She was also saying that some of these guys were behaving like louts in town before and after the parade. Her conclusion is that she wouldn't have anything to do with student marches again. The Gurads should have wheeled out the water cannon.

Sound Man Lenny Lovett,your niece describes the basic ingredients of a midweek nights Bus Travel along the N11 corridor passing UCD Belfield.

The essentials are almost identical,especially the Drink,Drugs and Loutish behaviour.

In our case however the Water Cannon would be more necessary to clean out the Bus after Na Mhicleinn have departed to further indulge in the accquisition of yet more Drugs,Drink and a top-up of Loutishness from a nearby ATM.

I have no problem admitting that it`s not ALL students,but it is my experience that the numbers involved in the regular displays of semi-retarded savagery have increased year on year.

Stabshauptmann makes a rather good point here too....

I personally would take the money that goes on J1 holidays, inter-railing and the gap year in Oz and put that towards their college fees.

A relatively short list to which I would apend...Drink (Lots of),Drugs and Nightclub Cover Charges...

I'm not happy that you lumped "work in the local shop" in with emigrate or the dole. Personally, I think too many college students are pretentious ****es who view far too many jobs as beneath them.

I`m not sure that many of the Student`s who respond on Boards recognize the damage that is being done to their case by the sizeable amount of "pretentious****es" referred to by Stabshauptmann.

The studious students who actually enroll to study and achieve their personal goals appear to be fighting a losing battle with the Barbarian`s who see "College" as a form of work-avoidance ?

Sandvich

The Irish really have become such little people.

Sandvich

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sandvich, how about you don't assume there are "sides" here, but rather just people with opinions?

moderately,
Scofflaw

Because there quite blatantly are, sorry. A lot of people aren't saying what they're saying because they've formed a valid opinion, but are as usual working backwards from griping about students or lefties.

Eyewitness accounts are, in fact, notoriously unreliable, particularly in any confused crowd situation.

So what's reliable then?

20Cent wrote: »

If people want to sit in the road whats the problem?
Leave them there let them have their protest no need to batton charge them.
Guards totally over reacted as usual. Getting some practice in for future protests I reckon.

Exactly. But apparently sitting on the street is now violent protest.

I firmly believe that the people in this thread complaining about student violence are in some cases thoroughly disgusting people, as they don't care about violence at all, after all it's okay for the Gards to use it.

PeakOutput

havnt read the whole thread maybe its been said already

any videos iv seen have shown the police to be very restrained and the students as the aggresors

one student in one of the rte videos can clearly be seen hitting riot police with id say a 6ft long piece of wood and doing it repeatedly as projectiles were being thrown at the police

i understand that this was a breakoff part of the protest and i think the main protest went off fine.

i also understand that trouble makers could have hijacked the protest with the intention of causing trouble

but i am ashamed that those people were up there trying to represent me and this is what happened. once violence starts(attacking gardai with sticks for example) then anyone who dosnt want to be associated with that behavioru should leave. if they dont they only have themselves to blame for the consequences

gardai were spot on from everything iv seen, if new video emerges ill reevaluate

OhNoYouDidn't

PeakOutput wrote: »

gardai were spot on from everything iv seen, if new video emerges ill reevaluate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI

From 3.40 in is very hard to explain from a Garda perspective. Sit down protesters hit on the head by riot cops.

the so called 'peacefull dispersement' of the march is the rest of the video. Plenty of law abiding citizens getting wallops and in one case a lady and what I assume is her daughter in school uniform is manhandled by a riot cop, and a number of occasions a senior garda rescues protesters from the riot cops.

Apologies if vid was already posted, but its very clear that the Gardaí went in OTT to clear the march after the initial incident.

OhNoYouDidn't

Di0genes wrote: »

Disruption of traffic on a busy city street, and disruption of work in the department of Finance are big deals.

There was no traffic, it had been diverted for the protest as part of their permission to march.

MagicSean

Sandvich wrote: »

Because there quite blatantly are, sorry. A lot of people aren't saying what they're saying because they've formed a valid opinion, but are as usual working backwards from griping about students or lefties.



So what's reliable then?



Exactly. But apparently sitting on the street is now violent protest.

I firmly believe that the people in this thread complaining about student violence are in some cases thoroughly disgusting people, as they don't care about violence at all, after all it's okay for the Gards to use it.

It doesn't work like that. Let's say two lads were beating the **** out of you and a Garda was coming over to help you. Now lets say that just as the Garda arrives they stop and start whistling and say they were being peaceful. You think the Garda should let them on their way? Standing still doesn't make you innocent.

OhNoYouDidn't

k_mac wrote: »

It doesn't work like that. Let's say two lads were beating the **** out of you and a Garda was coming over to help you. Now lets say that just as the Garda arrives they stop and start whistling and say they were being peaceful. You think the Garda should let them on their way? Standing still doesn't make you innocent.

Pointless analagy.

The issue here is that the Cops decided to go in all guns blazing to remove a handful of people from the Dept. Some protesters reacted to that, and the Gardaí then clicked into mayhem mode and battered anyone, troublemaker, protester, passer by or tourist that happened to get within a certain distance of them.

It was disproportionate.

OhNoYouDidn't

At 3.00 on 1968's posted video. A clearly unconcious student dumped on the footpath by a Garda. Wonder how he came to be unconcious?

'Peaceful dispersement...'?

MagicSean

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI

From 3.40 in is very hard to explain from a Garda perspective. Sit down protesters hit on the head by riot cops.

the so called 'peacefull dispersement' of the march is the rest of the video. Plenty of law abiding citizens getting wallops and in one case a lady and what I assume is her daughter in school uniform is manhandled by a riot cop, and a number of occasions a senior garda rescues protesters from the riot cops.

Apologies if vid was already posted, but its very clear that the Gardaí went in OTT to clear the march after the initial incident.

I saw noone whacked on the head. I saw no man-handling of any woman. i saw her path been blocked and she was told she couldn't take her car out. Did you watch your own video?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Pointless analagy.

The issue here is that the Cops decided to go in all guns blazing to remove a handful of people from the Dept. Some protesters reacted to that, and the Gardaí then clicked into mayhem mode and battered anyone, troublemaker, protester, passer by or tourist that happened to get within a certain distance of them.

It was disproportionate.

That's not how it goes in your video. From 50 seconds onwards you can see stuff been thrown at the Gardaí and the horses. Then you move on to people throwing stuff and kicking at the Gardaí in front of the building. These same people then sit down as if they have been absolved of all sin and wonder why the Gardaí pick on them.

gandalf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

At 3.00 on 1968's posted video. A clearly unconcious student dumped on the footpath by a Garda. Wonder how he came to be unconcious?

'Peaceful dispersement...'?

Selectively edited videos mean nothing. As for the unconscious student we have no idea how he became unconscious, we have no idea what behaviour he was engaged in before becoming unconscious. All you are engaged in is speculation. If he was in the Department building he was trespassing and if he resisted being ejected then the gardai were well within their rights to eject him using force.