Student Protest Kicks Off (see video only posts warning)

Scofflaw

1968, perhaps you missed the large warning in bold about posting video only posts. In case you did, here it is again - do not post video-only posts, because you'll be banned. This is a discussion forum, not Youtube.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Di0genes

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

At 3.00 on 1968's posted video. A clearly unconcious student dumped on the footpath by a Garda. Wonder how he came to be unconcious?

'Peaceful dispersement...'?

Thats a excellent question. He could have been minding his own business, he could also have been hitting a garda with a makeshift weapon, either way we don't know so speculating as to whether he deserved to be assaulted is specious at best.

PeakOutput

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI

From 3.40 in is very hard to explain from a Garda perspective. Sit down protesters hit on the head by riot cops.

the so called 'peacefull dispersement' of the march is the rest of the video. Plenty of law abiding citizens getting wallops and in one case a lady and what I assume is her daughter in school uniform is manhandled by a riot cop, and a number of occasions a senior garda rescues protesters from the riot cops.

Apologies if vid was already posted, but its very clear that the Gardaí went in OTT to clear the march after the initial incident.

that video wont load for me for some reason but even though im pretty sure i know what im about to see ill wait till it does to give you a response

Overheal

Sandvich wrote: »

Because there quite blatantly are, sorry. A lot of people aren't saying what they're saying because they've formed a valid opinion, but are as usual working backwards from griping about students or lefties.

Would you begrudge me of picking a side? Im neither a student or an irish resident. And when I say that the anti-AGS arguments in this thread are based on flaccid source material at best, ("rabid attack dogs" lol) what would make you think that I have any sort of agenda? That is, other than trying to keep the facts of the situation objective and honest.

Overheal

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Pointless analagy.

The issue here is that the Cops decided to go in all guns blazing to remove a handful of people from the Dept. Some protesters reacted to that, and the Gardaí then clicked into mayhem mode and battered anyone, troublemaker, protester, passer by or tourist that happened to get within a certain distance of them.

It was disproportionate.

Speaking of bad analogy: Guns Blazing? Really?

How much of this post is unbiased account of fact and how much is colorful imagining?

Laminations

Di0genes wrote: »

Thats a excellent question. He could have been minding his own business, he could also have been hitting a garda with a makeshift weapon, either way we don't know so speculating as to whether he deserved to be assaulted is specious at best.

Regardless of what he was doing, it is not speculation that the garda left an unconscious individual on the sidewalk, quite in breach of their duty of care (and yes I saw that another garda later on came to his aid, so I'm not trying to paint em all with the same brush). Some protesters (I'd suspect SWP and eirigi) were well out of order, but so were some gardai. And again, regardless of what individuals were previously doing, gardai have no right to baton charge and hit with riot shields anyone who is sitting on the ground with both hands up in a defensive pose pleading for calm.

I'm agreeing with gandalf, if individuals were breaking the law and acting violently towards police then they should've been arrested. If I smack you with a stick and then retreat, you can of course apprehend me but if i'm unarmed and pose no threat you should apprehend me with reasonable force, for arrest, not with un reasonable force in retaliation for any previous act. The protest was on the whole peaceful, lets not forget that, and let us not overlook the real reasons people are angry - lack of political accountability, lack of pain sharing, lack of realism among the policial elite (most recent example being Jim McDaids sweetheart payments). The monetary benefit of a ministerial salary in this country totals more than €6 million, and they pontificate about cuts.....not that I dont think cuts are necessary but I'm not going to accept a fat bastard telling me to lose weight.

Hoipefully when the IMF come to slash our services, we'll get some FF throats slashed (figuratively) in the backlash

Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI

From 3.40 in is very hard to explain from a Garda perspective. Sit down protesters hit on the head by riot cops.

the so called 'peacefull dispersement' of the march is the rest of the video. Plenty of law abiding citizens getting wallops and in one case a lady and what I assume is her daughter in school uniform is manhandled by a riot cop, and a number of occasions a senior garda rescues protesters from the riot cops.

Apologies if vid was already posted, but its very clear that the Gardaí went in OTT to clear the march after the initial incident.

What you see very clearly on that video is the way that the same people later being manhandled up from their "peaceful protest" on the pavement are the same people seen rucking the Gardai a couple of minutes earlier at the doors - the ginger-haired guy (who also appears in the cut segment as the 'bleeding student'), the guy with the grey/black camo rucksack, the black jacket guy with the tricolour, green-stripe hoody guy, etc.

Those are the guys forming the knot of "sit-down protestors" that the Gardai have trouble removing outside Bang Cafe - they're not "innocent citizens", they're a group that have chosen to use the protest to make trouble and start a fight with the Gardai, and are relying on the innocent citizens around them for protection. Apart from them, the rest of the crowd clears back from the Gardai quite peacefully.

If we were to go back to the small and quite violent protests earlier in the year, I'm betting we'd see a lot of the same faces.

At the doors and elsewhere, we see other people - not part of this group - asking "those who are protesting peacefully" to sit down, and asking the group to stop making trouble.

There were two demonstrations happening yesterday, a large peaceful protest and a small violent one, with the latter using the former for cover. The Gardai, in so far as they used force, used it against the latter, not the former, and there's no point in claiming that the larger protest was the target of Garda force, because it very clearly wasn't - the Gardai, based on that video, used force only against those who were violent. Cut-scenes showing 'students' who have been whacked on the head so far show those same guys.

cordially,
Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't

gandalf wrote: »

Selectively edited videos mean nothing. As for the unconscious student we have no idea how he became unconscious, we have no idea what behaviour he was engaged in before becoming unconscious. All you are engaged in is speculation. If he was in the Department building he was trespassing and if he resisted being ejected then the gardai were well within their rights to eject him using force.

... and dropped him unconcious on a footpath? Are people seriously going to argue that it was good policing?

There is using force to remove a trespasser and there is using force. If he got knocked out 'deservedly' for attacking a Garda, I find it very hard to believe he was not detained.

Like it or not, the Gardaí used a huge hammer to crack a very small nut. There is no justification for throwing missiles at the cops, but there is no justification for them then going on the rampage.

I repeat what I said earlier. Whenever there is an incident, they either go in far too hard or run for their lives. A happy medium when they deal with a protest evenhandedly by targetting those at it as opposed to every tom dick and harry on the street isn't too much to ask

PeakOutput

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI

From 3.40 in is very hard to explain from a Garda perspective. Sit down protesters hit on the head by riot cops.

the so called 'peacefull dispersement' of the march is the rest of the video. Plenty of law abiding citizens getting wallops and in one case a lady and what I assume is her daughter in school uniform is manhandled by a riot cop, and a number of occasions a senior garda rescues protesters from the riot cops.

Apologies if vid was already posted, but its very clear that the Gardaí went in OTT to clear the march after the initial incident.

grand just watched the video

you are either living in cloud cuckoo land or your doing your best at trolling

first of all its a very well edited video id love to see the unedited version

secondly there was no mother and daughter manhandled they were stopped and told they could not go that way simple as that

senior gardai did not make any 'rescues' they were making arrests

the unconcious student is unconcious because they were thrown very forcefully out of the finance building, this isnt shown in this edited video but can be seen very clearly in a couple of the other videos that are up on youtube and i think one of the rte ones shows it aswell

the girl being dragged away by the hair is A)probably not a girl not that it really matters resisting arrest

this is a break away group from the main protest. the main protest had the necessary permits, this group decided to go about and do their own thing and as a result they ruined the actual peacefull protest for everyone. they were no longer a part of the actual protest once they broke off and had no right to be were they were simple as that. if i tell a garda to **** off and throw things at them and attack their horses and attack them(even in your video you can clearly see protesters kicking riot shields etc) i deserve everything i get

there is nothing unreasonable in that video at all and if that is the best that the 'police brutality' brigade can come up with then there isnt alot else that needs to be said

Setun

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Nobody wants to change the current threshold for means testing. They want less money being spent on education.

People assume that means testing actually suits everybody, which is not necessarily the case. In the end it's the lower middle-class families that suffer - they don't qualify for grants etc and they don't necessarily have enough money to put more than one child through the educational system at once. By increasing the fees, these families caught in the middle will have to fork out potentially double, with no further relief from grants. What should these families do? Pick their favourite son/daughter? :rolleyes:

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I personally would take the money that goes on J1 holidays, inter-railing and the gap year in Oz and put that towards their college fees.

This reminds me of the comments yesterday about students using their smartphones to access twitter while complaining about increases in fees. Do people really think that every student is able to afford iPhones and J1s? Yes, most definitely there are students with more money than sense, but it's unfair to assume that every student is in the same situation. Not all the people I knew when I was in college was living a live of sordid holidays and drunken Friday night debauchery.

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I'm not happy that you lumped "work in the local shop" in with emigrate or the dole. Personally, I think too many college students are pretentious ****es who view far too many jobs as beneath them.

Heh, "not happy". I was asking what are the alternatives for those who leave secondary school - not about hierarchies, as you incorrectly suggested. All these jobs are important, but they're not available right now. Would it not be better to invest in third level education now while there are little other alternatives, and hope that in four/five years time we might begin to build up a good stock of highly skilled bioinformaticians (for example ) to attract investment?

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Actually its the opposite. The government is afraid to make the cuts it needs to because its afraid of vocal privileged groups:
Starting salary in Financial Regulator's graduate programme for 2010 (most recent public jobs recruitment) was 30k. Starting salary in private sector professional position 22k.
It boggles the mind.

I'll take that point to an extent, the difference in pay is fairly shocking. But perhaps one of the reasons there has been so much idiotic mistakes over the last decade is because the government etc knew that people will whinge and moan, but not actually cause a visible fuss. At least with people taking to the streets they might actually make them think twice about lumping cuts onto students while (cliché alert...) in the last year there were impressively large expenses claims/retirement packages for various executives and politicians.

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Student fees currently 1.5k p/a. Talk of increasing them to 3k.
You yourself have made it clear in your post that you view professional jobs as far superior to trades, retail etc.
You want to earn the big bucks [sic] in 3/4 years time? Then invest in your education.

Nonsense, you're completely twisting my point to suit your apparent bitterness. I'll repeat this point, hopefully it no longer lacks clarity: I was not suggesting one type of job is more important than the next. When half the country was being built on, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc were all needed - sadly, they're not needed so much any more. And how many students will walk into a retail outlet after their leaving cert and get a job they can rely on? I did invest in my education, and with the assistance of reduced fees at the time (I think the max I paid was approx €1500), I'm now a graduate, and I am incredibly thankful for that.

gandalf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

... and dropped him unconcious on a footpath? Are people seriously going to argue that it was good policing?

Do we know what else is happening in the background. Without that knowledge are you seriously going to call this bad policing?

There is using force to remove a trespasser and there is using force. If he got knocked out 'deservedly' for attacking a Garda, I find it very hard to believe he was not detained.

Again we don't have the full story just an edited "shock" video from someone calling themselves "Trade Union TV". I have a slight feeling they are not un-biased.

Like it or not, the Gardaí used a huge hammer to crack a very small nut. There is no justification for throwing missiles at the cops, but there is no justification for them then going on the rampage.

From what I can see they did nothing of the sort. I can only imagine the whinging if the Gardai reacted like the French Police would to people throwing missiles.

I repeat what I said earlier. Whenever there is an incident, they either go in far too hard or run for their lives. A happy medium when they deal with a protest evenhandedly by targetting those at it as opposed to every tom dick and harry on the street isn't too much to ask

Again I see no proof that they attacked every tom dick or harry on the street. They dealt with the front line of a crowd of protesters who were throwing missiles and who were engaged in trespass.

If you put yourself in harms way you should complain when that's exactly what happens.

gandalf

One thing that is very evident from photos I have seen of the whole protest and not the violence by the minority that seems to have eaten up most of the bandwidth about the march is that in the majority of the pictures there is no sign of the SWP banners at all. They are only evident where the trouble is. Clearly the USI have been shafted by this so called political party and the protest was hijacked by their extremist who were hell bent on causing this trouble and then screaming at the top of their voices about the Police brutality that occurred.

thebman

Scofflaw wrote: »

What you see very clearly on that video is the way that the same people later being manhandled up from their "peaceful protest" on the pavement are the same people seen rucking the Gardai a couple of minutes earlier at the doors - the ginger-haired guy (who also appears in the cut segment as the 'bleeding student'), the guy with the grey/black camo rucksack, the black jacket guy with the tricolour, green-stripe hoody guy, etc.

Those are the guys forming the knot of "sit-down protestors" that the Gardai have trouble removing outside Bang Cafe - they're not "innocent citizens", they're a group that have chosen to use the protest to make trouble and start a fight with the Gardai, and are relying on the innocent citizens around them for protection. Apart from them, the rest of the crowd clears back from the Gardai quite peacefully.

If we were to go back to the small and quite violent protests earlier in the year, I'm betting we'd see a lot of the same faces.

At the doors and elsewhere, we see other people - not part of this group - asking "those who are protesting peacefully" to sit down, and asking the group to stop making trouble.

There were two demonstrations happening yesterday, a large peaceful protest and a small violent one, with the latter using the former for cover. The Gardai, in so far as they used force, used it against the latter, not the former, and there's no point in claiming that the larger protest was the target of Garda force, because it very clearly wasn't - the Gardai, based on that video, used force only against those who were violent. Cut-scenes showing 'students' who have been whacked on the head so far show those same guys.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Exactly a video was posted on this thread earlier with a bloody guy we are lead to believe was innocently attacked by the cut video yet the same guy was on RTE on the frontline of pushing on the Gardai.

Misleading videos are misleading is all these videos show from what I can see with people then claiming anyone that sees them for what they are have some other mysterious agenda.

I'd love to know what kind of weird arse agenda that would be. Nobody would support excessive force by the gardai but if people go looking to pick a fight with the gardai, they shouldn't be confused by the gardai defending themselves and trying to restore order.

Laminations

gandalf wrote: »

If you put yourself in harms way you should complain when that's exactly what happens.

The gardai shouldnt be seen as 'harms way'. If I caught a burglar I could engage him, apprehend him, and use reasonable force in defending myself and property. If the burglar retreats and falls in my driveway, when he is crawling on the ground with his hands in the air in a defensive pose, I do not have the right to go on the offensive in retaliation and use excessive force because of his previous violation of my property. Some gardai do appear to have been heavy handed. More arrests all less baton swings should have occured

Laminations

thebman wrote: »

if people go looking to pick a fight with the gardai, they shouldn't be confused by the gardai defending themselves and trying to restore order.

I agree, the gardai should use force in a fight. But when the aggressors (who I have little time for) retreat to seated positions then the situation has changed, it is no longer a fight and the gardai shouldnt use retrospective force in retaliation

Scofflaw

Laminations wrote: »

The gardai shouldnt be seen as 'harms way'. If I caught a burglar I could engage him, apprehend him, and use reasonable force in defending myself and property. If the burglar retreats and falls in my driveway, when he is crawling on the ground with his hands in the air in a defensive pose, I do not have the right to go on the offensive in retaliation and use excessive force because of his previous violation of my property. Some gardai do appear to have been heavy handed. More arrests all less baton swings should have occured

Batons hurt, but rarely cause any permanent damage (having been on the receiving end), and any size of a cut on the head will bleed very spectacularly, even if it's just from a conker landing on you or a rugby boot (again, having been on the receiving end). A criminal record is actually more damaging and more permanent.*

cordially,
Scofflaw

*luckily, I was innocent

gandalf

Laminations wrote: »

The gardai shouldnt be seen as 'harms way'. If I caught a burglar I could engage him, apprehend him, and use reasonable force in defending myself and property. If the burglar retreats and falls in my driveway, when he is crawling on the ground with his hands in the air in a defensive pose, I do not have the right to go on the offensive in retaliation and use excessive force because of his previous violation of my property. Some gardai do appear to have been heavy handed. More arrests all less baton swings should have occured

But in the case of backing up an illegal trespass and occupation of a Government building and with aggression been shown towards the Gardai in the form of pushing them and throwing missiles at them then of course those at the frontline are putting themselves in harms way. Some because that's where they want to be and others because they were stupid and realised too late that they were caught up in the more sinister agenda of others who did not share the same attitude or goals for a peaceful protest of the majority of protesters.

Scofflaw

Laminations wrote: »

I agree, the gardai should use force in a fight. But when the aggressors (who I have little time for) retreat to seated positions then the situation has changed, it is no longer a fight and the gardai shouldnt use retrospective force in retaliation

So, I can fight with a couple of Gardai, and then sit down and wrap myself round a lamppost - and I shouldn't expect any force to be used to detach me?

interesting,
Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't

gandalf wrote: »

Do we know what else is happening in the background. Without that knowledge are you seriously going to call this bad policing?

Whatever he did or didn't do, he clearly required medical attention, and fair play to the Garda who eventually got him out of there with the help of another protester. It is not, under any circumstances, appropriate policing to drop an unconcious person on a footpath and walk away. No ifs. No buts.

gandalf wrote: »

If you put yourself in harms way you should complain when that's exactly what happens.

So being at a protest where Gardaí are present is now 'harms way'? Do me a favour.

This entire incident stemmed from the tactical response to a small number of protesters in the side lobby of Finance. They were sitting down and surrounded by uniformed Gardaí. It is clear they are going nowhere and not a tangible threat. Someone then decided to call the horses and riot cops to clear the road to deal with that occupation. It all escaleted from there.

Would it not have been easier for a group of uniformed Gardai to remove the occupiers? Why call in the shocktroops for that?

PeakOutput

Laminations wrote: »

I agree, the gardai should use force in a fight. But when the aggressors (who I have little time for) retreat to seated positions then the situation has changed, it is no longer a fight and the gardai shouldnt use retrospective force in retaliation

they didnt use force in retaliation

they used force to make an arrest

the people in question resisted arrest, force continued to be used until the people being arrested were under control. when they were it stopped. this is shown clearly in the 'shock' video

OhNoYouDidn't

Scofflaw wrote: »

So, I can fight with a couple of Gardai, and then sit down and wrap myself round a lamppost - and I shouldn't expect any force to be used to detach me?

interesting,
Scofflaw

Of course you should. But you shouldn't expect riot cops, Gardai on horses and vans driving at you...

No-one is disputing the Gardaí's 'right' to deal with trespassers and people throwing things. What is being argued is that there was a deliberate decision made to put on a large show of force that was wholly unsuitable to the situaton that they met.

Remember, the missiles began when the horses charged the crowd....

OhNoYouDidn't

PeakOutput wrote: »

they didnt use force in retaliation

they used force to make an arrest

the people in question resisted arrest, force continued to be used until the people being arrested were under control. when they were it stopped. this is shown clearly in the 'shock' video

No-one in the lobby of Finance got arrested.

They used force to remove them and then threw them back into the crowd.

If it isn't a serious enough incident to warrent an arrest, it isn't serious enough to charge into a crowd on horseback.

Sandvich

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No-one in the lobby of Finance got arrested.

They used force to remove them and then threw them back into the crowd.

If it isn't a serious enough incident to warrent an arrest, it isn't serious enough to charge into a crowd on horseback.

Exactly. I'm tired of people acting all Horf Dorf I'm so much more mature than you pesky Stoodents, when they can't even resolve basic ideas like this.

The actions of the Gardaí are not internally consistent. That means they're illogical.

I don't think it's fair to blame the Gardaí as a whole but there is undoubtedly a very unprofessional and unfair element to the way they deal with these things.

PeakOutput

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Whatever he did or didn't do, he clearly required medical attention, and fair play to the Garda who eventually got him out of there with the help of another protester. It is not, under any circumstances, appropriate policing to drop an unconcious person on a footpath and walk away. No ifs. No buts.

as i said already and which you conveniently ignored the unconcious person was thrown out of the finance building(very very roughly) just like the rest of the protesters he then laid on the ground for about 30secs maybe a minute with people around him and then when the gardai realised he was unconcious they went back to him to help. simple as that, you can see it for yourself in the videos if you could be bothered.

So being at a protest where Gardaí are present is now 'harms way'? Do me a favour.

being in a group of thugs attacking the gardai is being in harms way.

This entire incident stemmed from the tactical response to a small number of protesters in the side lobby of Finance.

wrong

this entire incident stemmed from the decision of a group of people to split from the actual protest and do their own thing like they own the place. who do they think they are?

They were sitting down and surrounded by uniformed Gardaí. It is clear they are going nowhere and not a tangible threat.

sorry i didnt realise you were there? as far as i have seen there are no videos of inside the finance offices

Someone then decided to call the horses and riot cops to clear the road to deal with that occupation. It all escaleted from there.

again factually incorrect. obviously the riot squad and the mounted police were on call and in the vicinity already seen as there was such a big garda presence throughout the day. when people were not responding to garda orders they were called in to prevent more people entering the building. the uniformed gardai then went about removing the protesters from the building, which they obviously resisted(fair enough if you believe in something like that i can understand that you want to resist) and that led to the violent ejection of the protesters(which is also fair enough imo) the people outside then reacted in a totally unacceptable way attacking gardai(this is not disputable its on the videos for everyone to see) it is then perfectly reasonable for the riot squad to go about dispersing the crowd

Would it not have been easier for a group of uniformed Gardai to remove the occupiers? Why call in the shocktroops for that?

they did, the 'shocktroops' didnt remove any of the protesters in any of the videos iv seen and you seem hellbent on filling in the gaps to suit your own agenda

the videos(even the anti police ones) show nothing out of line

PeakOutput

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No-one in the lobby of Finance got arrested.

i wasmt refering to the lobby i was refering to your video were the people are sitting down and what you think is a rescue by senior gardai is occuring

They used force to remove them and then threw them back into the crowd.

If it isn't a serious enough incident to warrent an arrest, it isn't serious enough to charge into a crowd on horseback.

they didnt charge into the crowd on horseback as a result of that incident, the video posted shows that happened way way later after a long period of restraint while being pelted with missiles

you can try and twist what i said any way you want but it wont work iv seen all of the videos posted so far showing all the different angles and all the different incidents you are refering to and it was an ever evolving situation that had peaks and troughs in action all the way threw from both sides and the gardai showed a huge amount of restraint throughout the entire event from the videos.

Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course you should. But you shouldn't expect riot cops, Gardai on horses and vans driving at you...

No-one is disputing the Gardaí's 'right' to deal with trespassers and people throwing things. What is being argued is that there was a deliberate decision made to put on a large show of force that was wholly unsuitable to the situaton that they met.

Remember, the missiles began when the horses charged the crowd....

You really should actually watch the video - which rather clearly shows things being thrown at the horses well before they pushed forward. Horses "charging the crowd" didn't happen at all - they walked forward to push the crowd back.

Perhaps it's my eyesight - but can you actually not see things being thrown at the horses pretty much right from the start of that video, before the cameraman focuses on the ruck at the door? The white things flying through the air? Are they UFOs? Video glitches?

As to the riot police arriving - sorry, but that's a minute or more into the video, and has to be taking place after the sit-down inside the Dept of Finance. They'll have been on standby, and they don't appear until after the violence round the door - and on balance I would consider riot police an appropriate response to the ruck around the door.

amused,
Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't

PeakOutput wrote: »

as i said already and which you conveniently ignored the unconcious person was thrown out of the finance building(very very roughly) just like the rest of the protesters he then laid on the ground for about 30secs maybe a minute with people around him and then when the gardai realised he was unconcious they went back to him to help. simple as that, you can see it for yourself in the videos if you could be bothered.

So the Garda who dumped a lifeless, unconcious person on the ground and walked away behaved professionaly and properly? Will you get a grip.

PeakOutput wrote: »

this entire incident stemmed from the decision of a group of people to split from the actual protest and do their own thing like they own the place. who do they think they are?

Lets go back a level and blame Lenihan for angering the students in the first place. If the incident wasn't serious enough to arrest anyone for, it wasn't serious enough to deploy horses and riot cops.

PeakOutput wrote: »

sorry i didnt realise you were there? as far as i have seen there are no videos of inside the finance offices

1968's video shows them in the lobby chatting to the cops.

PeakOutput wrote: »

again factually incorrect. obviously the riot squad and the mounted police were on call and in the vicinity already seen as there was such a big garda presence throughout the day. when people were not responding to garda orders they were called in to prevent more people entering the building. the uniformed gardai then went about removing the protesters from the building, which they obviously resisted(fair enough if you believe in something like that i can understand that you want to resist) and that led to the violent ejection of the protesters(which is also fair enough imo) the people outside then reacted in a totally unacceptable way attacking gardai(this is not disputable its on the videos for everyone to see) it is then perfectly reasonable for the riot squad to go about dispersing the crowd

The riot vans clearly pull up and they get out. They weren't standing beside the building, they were called. The horses were not in the middle of Merrion St, they were called.

The situation was contained. A tactical decision was taken to send riot cops clear the area for the removal of the protestors. I can't think of any logical reason for that other than to escalate the situation. If you think this is how it should have been done, well thats your lookout.

Overheal

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If it isn't a serious enough incident to warrent an arrest, it isn't serious enough to charge into a crowd on horseback.

Which is why we didn't see horses charging into a crowd...

Laminations

Scofflaw wrote: »

So, I can fight with a couple of Gardai, and then sit down and wrap myself round a lamppost - and I shouldn't expect any force to be used to detach me?

interesting,
Scofflaw

Thats not what I'm sayting. Firstly, the gardai should incapacitate you during the 'fight', afterwards they lose the justification of using force. Secondly, if you did that, while you were wrapped around a lamppost I'd expect the gardai to go in with cuffs and drag you off with them for arrest, not beat you off to get you to move.

Funnily enough, I'm generally in favour of a heavy handed garda response, and would have loved to see baton charges against the thugs that ruined O Connell Street during the Love Ulster parade - but if those thugs, on seeing the gardai rush at them, dropped to the ground and held their hands up, I wouldn't accept the guards then beating the snot out of them, and they would be people I dispise

PeakOutput wrote: »

they didnt use force in retaliation

they used force to make an arrest

the people in question resisted arrest, force continued to be used until the people being arrested were under control. when they were it stopped. this is shown clearly in the 'shock' video

If this were true then there should have been more arrests - and there SHOULD have been more arrests.

Force continued to be used until the people not being arrested moved on, thats more accurate.

Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

Lets go back a level and blame Lenihan for angering the students in the first place.

The violence round the door, and the removal of the protestors outside Bang Cafe, have nothing to do with the students.

Seriously, look at the video you posted. Are you telling me that the people the Gardai have difficulty removing are not the same people involved in the ruck at the door?

cordially,
Scofflaw

MagicSean

Laminations wrote: »

Regardless of what he was doing, it is not speculation that the garda left an unconscious individual on the sidewalk, quite in breach of their duty of care (and yes I saw that another garda later on came to his aid, so I'm not trying to paint em all with the same brush). Some protesters (I'd suspect SWP and eirigi) were well out of order, but so were some gardai. And again, regardless of what individuals were previously doing, gardai have no right to baton charge and hit with riot shields anyone who is sitting on the ground with both hands up in a defensive pose pleading for calm.

I'm agreeing with gandalf, if individuals were breaking the law and acting violently towards police then they should've been arrested. If I smack you with a stick and then retreat, you can of course apprehend me but if i'm unarmed and pose no threat you should apprehend me with reasonable force, for arrest, not with un reasonable force in retaliation for any previous act. The protest was on the whole peaceful, lets not forget that, and let us not overlook the real reasons people are angry - lack of political accountability, lack of pain sharing, lack of realism among the policial elite (most recent example being Jim McDaids sweetheart payments). The monetary benefit of a ministerial salary in this country totals more than €6 million, and they pontificate about cuts.....not that I dont think cuts are necessary but I'm not going to accept a fat bastard telling me to lose weight.

Hoipefully when the IMF come to slash our services, we'll get some FF throats slashed (figuratively) in the backlash

No Garda would pick up an unconscious person and dump them. The unconsciousness no doubt happened during the journey out of the building, wether ir was injury or just panic we don't know, and as soon as it was noticed she/he was unconscious they assisted her.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

... and dropped him unconcious on a footpath? Are people seriously going to argue that it was good policing?

There is using force to remove a trespasser and there is using force. If he got knocked out 'deservedly' for attacking a Garda, I find it very hard to believe he was not detained.

Like it or not, the Gardaí used a huge hammer to crack a very small nut. There is no justification for throwing missiles at the cops, but there is no justification for them then going on the rampage.

I repeat what I said earlier. Whenever there is an incident, they either go in far too hard or run for their lives. A happy medium when they deal with a protest evenhandedly by targetting those at it as opposed to every tom dick and harry on the street isn't too much to ask

Rampage? The Gardaí will always go in hard in a riot situation. All police forces will. Once a situation escalates to that level all resources are used to quell it as soon as possible. If they don't they run the risk of being overrun. You should do some research on the topic of quelling riots and you will see what I mean.

PeakOutput wrote: »

the girl being dragged away by the hair is A)probably not a girl not that it really matters resisting arrest

I think it was a backpack or hood under the hair. There was a picture of it somewhere else that shows this. May have been RTE.

thebman wrote: »

Exactly a video was posted on this thread earlier with a bloody guy we are lead to believe was innocently attacked by the cut video yet the same guy was on RTE on the frontline of pushing on the Gardai.

Misleading videos are misleading is all these videos show from what I can see with people then claiming anyone that sees them for what they are have some other mysterious agenda.

I'd love to know what kind of weird arse agenda that would be. Nobody would support excessive force by the gardai but if people go looking to pick a fight with the gardai, they shouldn't be confused by the gardai defending themselves and trying to restore order.

i once saw a video on Indymedia of a riot outside Baldonnell aerodrome. In the video the cameraman asked an arrested fella "Did they beat you?" The arrested fella replied "No, the cuffs are a bit tight". Within 30 minutes this part had been removed from the video. I've been sceptical of any posted videos since then.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course you should. But you shouldn't expect riot cops, Gardai on horses and vans driving at you...

Seems a perfectly reasonable expectation in a riot.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No-one is disputing the Gardaí's 'right' to deal with trespassers and people throwing things. What is being argued is that there was a deliberate decision made to put on a large show of force that was wholly unsuitable to the situaton that they met.

The large show of force was after the trouble started.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Remember, the missiles began when the horses charged the crowd....

Not according to any video i've seen.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No-one in the lobby of Finance got arrested.

They used force to remove them and then threw them back into the crowd.

If it isn't a serious enough incident to warrent an arrest, it isn't serious enough to charge into a crowd on horseback.

In a riot the aim of a police force is to arrest ring leaders, enforce order and disperse crowds. If you try and arrest everyone in a riot who breaks the law you would have very full cells very quickly and the riot would last for days.


To me this was a clear situation where the troublemakers decided to attack Gardaí when they outnumbered them by about 50 to 1 like cowards. Then the Gardaí responded in force and the troublemakers got upset. Lets not forget that three uniformed Gardaí were injured, one of which sustained a broken nose, before the riot police entered the fray. I fail to see what part of this protest was peaceful.

PeakOutput

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So the Garda who dumped a lifeless, unconcious person on the ground and walked away behaved professionaly and properly? Will you get a grip.

it wasnt lifeless now was it? no reports of anyone dieing now was there? im not the one who needs to get a grip. im not going to criticise the police about that without knowing why the person was uncoscious, on the surface it looks bad no problem admitting that.

Lets go back a level and blame Lenihan for angering the students in the first place. If the incident wasn't serious enough to arrest anyone for, it wasn't serious enough to deploy horses and riot cops.

by the way i dont actually believe this trouble was caused by students even if they did make the retarded decision to do their own thing instead of taking part in the proper protest, there are definitely people there who are jsut there to cause trouble and i dont think they are students

1968's video shows them in the lobby chatting to the cops.

that video was deleted i think so i cant see it but ill take your word for it. what do you think they were talking about? the fact that they were breaking the law and as police they are obliged to stop them from doing so? and if they dont follow the garda directions further action(removal by force) will be taken? does that sound like the probable conversation to you?

The riot vans clearly pull up and they get out. They weren't standing beside the building, they were called. The horses were not in the middle of Merrion St, they were called.

no argument there they were in the area in case there was trouble, there was trouble.

The situation was contained.

you think a group of uniformed police surrounded by angry protesters is a contained situation? it isnt a beat cops job to control crowds, its the riot squads job.

A tactical decision was taken to send riot cops clear the area for the removal of the protestors. I can't think of any logical reason for that other than to escalate the situation.

so let me get this straight. a member of the gardai deciding that the situation isnt bad enough and needs to be escalated / made worse and then all the other gardai follow that person and deliberately escalate and antagonise the protesters into attacking them. you think that sounds more logical then a bunch of hooligans causing trouble any chance they get?

if the gardai were just itching for action why was there no trouble at the main protest were there was 20,000 or so protesters?

MagicSean

Laminations wrote: »

Thats not what I'm sayting. Firstly, the gardai should incapacitate you during the 'fight', afterwards they lose the justification of using force. Secondly, if you did that, while you were wrapped around a lamppost I'd expect the gardai to go in with cuffs and drag you off with them for arrest, not beat you off to get you to move.

That would be a very dangerous arrest to attempt due to the thousands around you.

Laminations wrote: »

If this were true then there should have been more arrests - and there SHOULD have been more arrests.

Force continued to be used until the people not being arrested moved on, thats more accurate.

Riot police don't make individual arrests. When they are called in it means the situation has escalated to a riot. In a riot individual arrests no longer matter because the goal of the police force has changed to one of protection.

Laminations

k_mac wrote: »

That would be a very dangerous arrest to attempt due to the thousands around you.

This is the problem, the thousands around were mostly peaceful, they would have appreciated the arrest and removal of the bad elements - you are now painting them as if they would have all attacked the gardai. If someone beside me threw a rock at a guard (not that I was there), I'd be happy for them to be dragged off, I'd be less happy if the gardai hit out randomly in response to anti social elements


Thats all I'll say. This issue, and consequently this thread is irrelevant and pales in comparison to the real problems in this country. We should be focusing our wrath towards FF and the political classes that call for cuts while sucking on the blood of this country. Who cares about what transpired between the gardai and a minority violent element of a protest, it is overshadowing the real issues. Its a sideshow when you consider our budget deficit, the looming dire budget, the awful banking strategy and the entitlements of the senior CS and politicians in this country

Overheal

Laminations wrote: »

This is the problem, the thousands around were mostly peaceful, they would have appreciated the arrest and removal of the bad elements - you are now painting them as if they would have all attacked the gardai. If someone beside me threw a rock at a guard (not that I was there), I'd be happy for them to be dragged off, I'd be less happy if the gardai hit out randomly in response to anti social elements

In response to Gardai advancement rather, students sat and chanted that they would not be moved.

How do you perform arrests in that environment, just step over people? Then you'd have rabble saying the Gardai trampled innocent women and such.

You're correct though, the particulars of this protest/riot incident are just minutiae. What about the Student Fees, the By-Elections, the Constitutional violations? Those will still exist tomorrow; this isolated event is already done with.

billy the squid

The likes of Eirigi are a threat to our democracy, who is going to want to hold a demonstration if these thugs are going to show up every time?

MagicSean

Laminations wrote: »

This is the problem, the thousands around were mostly peaceful, they would have appreciated the arrest and removal of the bad elements - you are now painting them as if they would have all attacked the gardai. If someone beside me threw a rock at a guard (not that I was there), I'd be happy for them to be dragged off, I'd be less happy if the gardai hit out randomly in response to anti social elements


Thats all I'll say. This issue, and consequently this thread is irrelevant and pales in comparison to the real problems in this country. We should be focusing our wrath towards FF and the political classes that call for cuts while sucking on the blood of this country. Who cares about what transpired between the gardai and a minority violent element of a protest, it is overshadowing the real issues. Its a sideshow when you consider our budget deficit, the looming dire budget, the awful banking strategy and the entitlements of the senior CS and politicians in this country

It's hard to explain the concept of mob mentality and how a peaceful mob can turn violent in seconds because of one person or one act. It's really something that has to be seen to be truely believed. It is something which is always in the mind of police in protest situations.

Laminations

Overheal wrote: »

In response to Gardai advancement rather, students sat and chanted that they would not be moved.

How do you perform arrests in that environment, just step over people? Then you'd have rabble saying the Gardai trampled innocent women and such.

With cuffs, not batons, and thats if you think sitting down in protest is an arrestable offence. Leaving aside for the minute that some, if not all of these sitdown protesters, were been violent in the moments prior to their sitdown, imagine if they weren't. Should you be arrested for just sitting down in protest?

PeakOutput

Laminations wrote: »

This is the problem, the thousands around were mostly peaceful

just to be clear there were not thousands around any part of this incident


this was a break away group of what looks like 100 / 150 protesters most of which were peacefull despite their stupid decision to join this group

and guess what? most of them got away with absolutely no physical harm

a small number of people in this group were attacking police officers and the other peacefull protesters seemed oblivious to this as they chanted shame on you and peacefull protest and the police attacked / injured and arrested a small number of people out of the group. there was no mass attack on the group were every got a box or a club no matter what they were doing. people who were on the front line with the gardai, while the gardai were being attacked, got hurt, tough ****.

PeakOutput

Laminations wrote: »

With cuffs, not batons, and thats if you think sitting down in protest is an arrestable offence. Leaving aside for the minute that some, if not all of these sitdown protesters, were been violent in the moments prior to their sitdown, imagine if they weren't. Should you be arrested for just sitting down in protest?

there are avenues open to people who want to protest. these avenues were made fully available to these people by the arrangement of a massive protest with all the necessary permits, roads were closed etc etc. these people chose to not avail of these legal avenues of protest therefore they have no right to complain when the law enforcers of the land enforce the law and tell them to move

i disagreed with the aims of the protest

i dont disagree with their right to protest

i dont even really disagree with their actions of illegally occupying the finance building. but if you are going to do that you have to be prepared to accept the consequences and the gardai removing you is one of those consequences

i do disagree with this bleeding heart bull**** people were attacking gardai. this group was meant to be in dublin representing me in an organised peacefull march and protest. they chose to not do that and they suffered the consequences and they deserved it

Overheal

Laminations wrote: »

With cuffs, not batons, and thats if you think sitting down in protest is an arrestable offence. Leaving aside for the minute that some, if not all of these sitdown protesters, were been violent in the moments prior to their sitdown, imagine if they weren't. Should you be arrested for just sitting down in protest?

You misunderstand my post: douchebag throws a rock at the gards. Gards advance. In response to gards advancing, 100 students choose to sit down and have a protest not knowing they're getting in the way of arresting the rock throwing douchebag.

So my question again is how do the Gardai go off an arrest that douchebag with a hundred people in the way who refuse to move?

uprising2

Stinicker wrote: »

I would gladly lay my life on the line to defend this country and my ancestors fought (in the War of Independence) and died (murdered playing GAA). I am not the type that is afraid of courts or the Gardai and I would kill for freedom and am prepared to die if Ireland needs me in war or times of trouble; How many cowards in this country can say the same thing and mean it?

If this country must descend into all out war against the cowards of Gardai then so be it.

It sickens me that it took Sinn Fein to directly challenge this illegal Government in court in an attempt to restore democracy to the people. Where are Fine Gael and Labour?

This is the same situation we are facing as our ancestors faced 100 years ago under oppression and no representation .

Poccington wrote: »

I swore an oath to this country, did you?

So you go ahead and try overthrow the Government by force, there's a couple of thousand people who swore the same oath as I did that'll make sure your grand plan falls flat on it's face.

Thankfully, you'll do nothing more than talk tough on an Internet forum so all's well that ends well etc.

Poccington wrote: »

Why would I ask Irish lads in the BA about an oath I swore?

The DF wouldn't be able to stop them?

I'm gonna go ahead and say we could.

With all due respect Poccington, when more people get as angry as Stinicker there won't be an awful lot you can do.

Anyway you swore an oath to this country, did you swear an oath to help drag the country down?, did you swear an oath to the bankers?, its the people who make this country, not the bankers and elites, your happy to enforce orders from elites and help in the pillage of the nation you claim to protect.

It's won't be only all student hippies either, I've seen garda run for their lives a few times growing up in Finglas, and the more this "austerity" takes from the people the more angry they become.

Overheal

uprising2 wrote: »

With all due respect Poccington, when more people get as angry as Stinicker there won't be an awful lot you can do.

Anyway you swore an oath to this country, did you swear an oath to help drag the country down?, did you swear an oath to the bankers?, its the people who make this country, not the bankers and elites, your happy to enforce orders from elites and help in the pillage of the nation you claim to protect.

It's won't be only all student hippies either, I've seen garda run for their lives a few times growing up in Finglas, and the more this "austerity" takes from the people the more angry they become.

It's not about upholding corruption it's about defending the country from a state of anarchy and chaos. Violent government overthrows do NOT bring about stability to a country. And if it were to happen, watch when all of the foreign embassies close up and all the foreign employees get the hell out of dodge, because it'll be some time after such an event that the International Community will recognize whatever takes shape as the legitimate government of the Republic of Ireland. Thats if history is to be believed. Not that fighting a violent coup d'etait not might ever work out in the end, but you can't say with any certainty how many would die and how long it would take to reach that point. As it stands the Gardai don't know that either. The army doesn't either. And they'll be there to make sure that doesn't happen. They'll be there to make sure that if the government is overthrown that it's done by pen and paper.

gandalf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So being at a protest where Gardaí are present is now 'harms way'? Do me a favour.

This entire incident stemmed from the tactical response to a small number of protesters in the side lobby of Finance. They were sitting down and surrounded by uniformed Gardaí. It is clear they are going nowhere and not a tangible threat. Someone then decided to call the horses and riot cops to clear the road to deal with that occupation. It all escaleted from there.

Would it not have been easier for a group of uniformed Gardai to remove the occupiers? Why call in the shocktroops for that?

If you are going to quote me then quote what I said fully and not extracts to suit your agenda please!

This is the exact quote again.

They dealt with the front line of a crowd of protesters who were throwing missiles and who were engaged in trespass.

If you put yourself in harms way you should complain when that's exactly what happens.

Overheal

Also worth noting that this wasn't a protest to overthrow government, but a protest to overthrow a registration fee hike.

AlekSmart

Going on that Video I would suggest that Gingers do not make the best Anarchists....If I were that lad I`d invest in a nice restrained mousey colour.....:)

Lockstep

Friend of mine posted up this:

British students discuss fees with the government

Irish students discuss fees with the government

20Cent

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Friend of mine posted up this:

British students discuss fees with the government

Irish students discuss fees with the government

Imagine Irish students getting to quiz Brian Cowen.
No chance.

Poccington

uprising2 wrote: »

With all due respect Poccington, when more people get as angry as Stinicker there won't be an awful lot you can do.

Anyway you swore an oath to this country, did you swear an oath to help drag the country down?, did you swear an oath to the bankers?, its the people who make this country, not the bankers and elites, your happy to enforce orders from elites and help in the pillage of the nation you claim to protect.

It's won't be only all student hippies either, I've seen garda run for their lives a few times growing up in Finglas, and the more this "austerity" takes from the people the more angry they become.

Why can't we do anything about it? Is there some secret stash of weapons that civvie's have been keeping for a rainy day? The DF has dealt with far worse riot situations than anything happening these days.

I swore an oath to stay loyal to Ireland and the Constitution. You think I'm happy with the state this country is in? Or what people have done to it? However, if you think that the standing Army of this country should stand by and in a make believe scenario, allow people to attempt to overthrow a Government using violence, fair play to you.

Thankfully, most sane people would agree that such a notion is truly ridiculous.

Poccington

20Cent wrote: »

Imagine Irish students getting to quiz Brian Cowen.
No chance.

He'd probably be half cut getting out of bed anyway.