Panasonic TG4/TV3 Sound?

fat-tony

They are defined in the PAT, not SDT PID

Service ID 1103 - TV3
ES PID 1203 MPEG audio - Language eng
ES PID 1213 MPEG audio - Language nar

as a comparison:

Service ID 1101 - RTÉ One
ES PID 1201 MPEG audio - Language eng
ES PID 1211 MPEG audio - Language nar

maxg

It should be possible to run the dvb-t part in irish mode. Converting from G10B to G10L and reverting back to G10B without a reset could be a alternative.

G10B

Is it a coincidence that audio problem occurs only on the channels that do not transmit digital text (TV3, TG4 & 3e) or could there be a correlation?

Sponge Bob

Only RTE 2 broadcasts MHEG5 text, RTE1 broadcasts 'basic' digital text

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Only RTE 2 broadcasts MHEG5 text, RTE1 broadcasts 'basic' digital text

All RTÉ channels display MHEG-5 text with a compatible TV. RTÉ 1 (and TV3, TG4 & 3e) also carry traditional teletext for non-compatible MHEG-5 receivers. The Saorview spec gives priority to MHEG-5 over traditional text if available.

watty

Some TV sets if setup is wrong or firmware is incompatible will show teletext on RTE1, TV3 and TG4 and MHEG5 on the other Channels.

As "The Cush" says any TV compatible with spec will show MHEG5 on all channels.

The LG xxLD450 and xxLE450 and some other compatible LG models have an extra option if Ireland is Country to make Teletext or MHEG5 the default. If MHEG5 is default and there is no MHEG5 at all on the Transmission (e.g. Analogue or France) it will show Teletext.

On Digital the Teletext and MHEG5 are not actually "in" any of the channels. They are separate data streams on the same Multiplex or Transponder. So unlike Analogue, you could design a GUI that had Teletext from any channel in the Multiplex in one half of screen and ANY channel in a window that is also in the Multiplex.

A single MHEG5 stream is used for all Channels at present. TV3 and TG4 could add their own applications.

G10B

just to clarify,
The on screen banner on g10 shows "txt" on RTE1, RTE2 & RTE News now. TV3, TG4 & 3e don't display "txt". It may be coincidence that the channels without "txt" have audio issues. Before TG4 started having this audio issue was it flagged/transmitting text differently?

PS.
If user selects a programme from epg for timer (even from TV3, TG4 or 3e) when the tv switches to the timed programme the audio works fine.

Sponge Bob

G10B wrote: »

If user selects a programme from epg for timer (even from TV3, TG4 or 3e) when the tv switches to the timed programme the audio works fine.

Looks like a Panasonic firmware bug...and Panasonic are not known for fixing their bugs with any urgency. The B models are not 'supposed' to be used in Ireland which means they are highly unlikely to give a damn about this bug

championc

Hmmm, interesting this. As it turned out, I tried pushing my TXT button last night on TV3 and got nothing at all - on my brilliant Panny G20B !! So looks like the G20B might finally have a chink in it's armour. MHEG-5 TXT works fine for RTE. Must try TXT on the Analog channels tonight and see is the TV just expecting MHEG5 Text or nothing on the DVB-T channels.

I hardly ever use TXT anyway so no loss. And the G20B has no sound issues at all.


C

STB

Well, it doesnt have a chink in its armour you will be happy to know champion.

MHEG5 data is only broadcast on RTE1, RTE 2 and RTE News Now at the moment.

From the PAT you will notice an entry like this under each stations video and audio and teletext PIDs (except for TV3 and TG4 and 3e). This is the MHEG5 data.

<ES PID="1001" Name="Data">
<StreamType HValue="0x0B" Name="ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x52" Name="Stream Identifier">
<ComponentTag Value="11"/>
</Descriptor>
<Descriptor HValue="0x13" Name="Carousel Identifier">
<CarouselID HValue="0x00000001"/>
<FormatID HValue="0x00"/>
<FormatSpecifier HValue="0x66"/>
</Descriptor>
<Descriptor HValue="0x66" Name="Data Broadcast ID">
<DataBroadcastID HValue="0x0106"/>
<SelectorLength Value="4"/>
<Selector Dump="01 01 00 00"/>
</Descriptor>
</ES>


The audio issue being caused by a lack of MHEG5 data not being broadcast in the stream would seem a little far fetched at first but I get were you are coming from regarding coincidences, Mr new poster guy.

Infact I note from RTEs published spec that the whole audio description area is controlled by the "blue button" preferably. Does this work ? The blue button.


RTE spec
Audio description may be carried as a separate broadcast pre-mixed audio track; described,signalled and selected as Narrative or ‘nar’ in ISO 639 language code with audio type 0x00 (as“undefined” or “normal”).

The IRD shall support simple rotation of language source via a single button press (preferably blue)and as indicated via an on-screen navigational aid; this functionality shall not be dependent uponother language settings and functions such as subtitle on or off.

The onscreen display (OSD) should clearly indicate the audio language(s) available to the vieweron the channel selected via the (blue) button and the selection process available to the viewershould be via the appropriate navigation arrows.

The ability to set the Audio Described language descriptor or code should be available via the STBconfiguration menu; the viewer should be able to set the preferred language as e.g. Narrative or‘nar’ as a default; thus ensuring that when changing channel the receiver will automatically selectthe viewer preference (as aforementioned in this case narrative, if broadcast) upon every changeof television channel.
Support for simultaneous decoding of the normal (mono/stereo/multi channel) audio track and thevisual impaired audio track is an optional feature of this specification. Note the IRD shall be able toautomatically select the main audio stream (via PID or descriptor) when receiving additional visualimpaired audio with same language (main “normal” audio track signalled via ISO 639 languagedescriptor with audio type 0x00 “undefined” or “normal”; while the visually impaired audio trackmay be signalled with audio type 0x02 hearing_impaired or 0x03 visual_impaired_commentary).

The spoken subtitle or visual impaired audio description track will in case of MPEG1 Layer II andHEAAC audio format be as a separate (mono) audio stream (PID) and in case of AC 3 or EnhancedAC3 format may be as an extra audio channel within the audio stream (PID).The IRD should support simultaneous decoding of the normal (mono/stereo/multi channel) audiotrack and the spoken subtitle visually impaired audio track. For the IRD supporting this, it shall bepossible to control (select) this visually impaired audio and when activated the audio track (normalor visual impaired) shall be presented to the IRD’s outgoing audio (HDMI, SCART or Phono).

championc

But is TV3 broadcasting "traditional" Teletext on it's DVB-T channel ? If so, I'm getting nothing on this.

STB

championc wrote: »

But is TV3 broadcasting "traditional" Teletext on it's DVB-T channel ? If so, I'm getting nothing on this.

MHEG5 get precedence. I dont think there is a facility to turn off MHEG5 in the software in favour of VBI.

The Cush

championc wrote: »

But is TV3 broadcasting "traditional" Teletext on it's DVB-T channel ? If so, I'm getting nothing on this.

Yes.

watty

On LG 42LD450
there is a MHEG/Teletext "Data" option under "options" in main menu. Allegedly this setting only exists for Ireland.
You need to exit TV tuner source to a cabled input and back for changes to be reliable (i.e. it Caches stuff).

  set | "Teletext"  MHEG5
============================  
RTE1  | Teletext   MHEG5
RTE2  | Nothing    MHEG5
TV3   | Teletext   Teletext
TG4   | Teletext   Teletext
News  | MHEG5      MHEG5

This behaviour is close to what the manual explains.

Since TV3 and TG4 don't have MHEG5 pages, what it does in "MHEG5" mode makes sense.

The Difference between RTE2 and RTE News now is interesting. Maybe because subtitles are running on RTE2 and Teletext is used to display them even though they are DVB subtitles

RTE2 offers OFF and ENG for subtitles (though on current program there are none, just an 888 in corner if ENG selected)
News offers NA for Subtitle Menu

So all makes sense to me!

G10B

Blue button does nothing....

anyone remember if TG4 ever had mheg5 text? I can't remember when audio in TG4 stopped working but it was before TV3 got added.

Sam Russell

I bought an LGxxLD490 which is Freeview HD. It has no country choice, and if setup direct from the box, channels go to the 800s. If a selection is unticked, it puts them in the right order for TV and Radios are a seperate choice. In fact if you press '1' you get the choice of: RTE 1 DTV; RTE 1 ATV; and RTE Radio 1.

RTE 2 displays MHEG 5 teletext, but all the other channels display Aertel text, inc RTE 1.

It works fine, but is not really fully Saorview compatible. Hope there are no new surprises with this particular model.

I think there needs to be a rethink regarding Freeview HD. It is not necessarily compatible with Saorview, as it is UK D book compatible, and not tested against Nordig 2.2 (HD Mandatory) standards. The Nordig is a complete standard, while the D book only defines the factors that apply to UK broadcasts. It does not define LCN treatments, particularly when HD/SD simulcasts exist, nor does it define Teletext vs MHEG 5 teletext applictaion hierachy rules. Both of these are covered in Nordig.

There are probably more rules not implemented fully. We know about Panasonic. We have heard about Philips. Now here is a TV from LG that is not fully compatible.

Because RTE NL are not broadcasting all possible flavours, it is impossible to fully test a product using broadcast signals. Perhaps we should restrict our choices to just Walker TVs and STBs for the time being.:mad:

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think there needs to be a rethink regarding Freeview HD. It is not necessarily compatible with Saorview, as it is UK D book compatible, and not tested against Nordig 2.2 (HD Mandatory) standards. The Nordig is a complete standard, while the D book only defines the factors that apply to UK broadcasts. It does not define LCN treatments, particularly when HD/SD simulcasts exist, nor does it define Teletext vs MHEG 5 teletext applictaion hierachy rules. Both of these are covered in Nordig.

Sam Russell, how do you know what the D-Book says? It's secret.

Maybe compliance is not well tested?

We nearly bought a LG 42LD490 as it was same price as LG 42. But my son who was buying wanted it immediately and the 42LD490 was online only for us. The xxLD450 definately has UK Freeview (not "Freeview HD" as it no DVB-T2 tuner) and definately has Irish Specific tweaks in Firmware when you select Ireland. It "seems" to be fully compatible.

No option Menu in 42LD490?
Also almost all the LGs have a service menu and abiltity for "extras" to be turned on (such as USB hub support, USB Video playback etc).

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

Sam Russell, how do you know what the D-Book says? It's secret.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/10144/139669.pdf

The LG 42LD490 is certified as Freeview HD, so complies with UK D book. It is not complying with Saorview/Nordig spec on LCN or MHEG 5 teletext priority. I have not checked everything.

I suspect that this is early days for this model, and was launched as a UK only model, as the UK is the only place currently using DVB-T2.

championc

I checked my Panny G20B last night which is obviously DVB-T2 Freeview HD set but display MHEG5 Text or else Nothing on the DVB Saorview Channels. The Analog Channels will show the old style Teletext.

It's the only glitch I've managed to find in the G20B though.


C

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/10144/139669.pdf

That is NOT the D-Book

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

That is NOT the D-Book

I know, but the D book is secret.:)

It is as good as you can get, without the real thing.

rai555

Stinicker wrote: »

Following on from a very informative PM from damien (Thanks btw! ) I took the plunge and did this to my TV and it works perfectly!! And I have got the 7 Saorview channels back, my Freesat is as normal and despite RTENL broadcasting that flag I am now able to tune in any future channels they may launch.

It is a tedious operation and not for the technically illiterate but if you follow the Hex edit instructions and the steps in my guide then you will be able to get the channels back. The same problem still exists with the Sound Audio option on TV3, 3e & TG4 and pressing "I" will still not give you the information banner except on RTE News Now, EPG Data is there just no programme info, but this problem was there before RTE ever changed the broadcast flag and when the TV was in GW10 mode all EPG info was lost.

Do this at your own risk and I nor boards.ie accept no responsibility for bricked TV sets or voided TV warranties.

Print out the instructions and read them before doing it to make sure you know what you're doing. This workaround only works for Panasonic G10B models (screen size is irrelevant) and will not work with any other models that I know of.

I tried to revert my G10B to GW10, tuned and saved all DTT chanels to sd card, at the end could not copy my files from the card, got the message : error ID is different
anybody got this message ?:mad:

rai555

rai555 wrote: »

I tried to revert my G10B to GW10, tuned and saved all DTT chanels to sd card, at the end could not copy my files from the card, got the message : error ID is different
anybody got this message ?:mad:

the screen :

2011-02-06 21.30.JPG

STB

What are you trying to do ?

Did you do the following ?

You changed to G10w changing the hex values.

You then tuned in the stations.

You reverted to G10b changing the hex values again. Your stations tuned in whilst in g10w mode are kept.

You then tried to backup the saved scanned files to Hotel card ?

rai555

STB wrote: »

What are you trying to do ?

Did you do the following ?

You changed to G10w changing the hex values.

You then tuned in the stations.

You reverted to G10b changing the hex values again. Your stations tuned in whilst in g10w mode are kept.

You then tried to backup the saved scanned files to Hotel card ?

yes, i changed hex to gw10 , while in gw10 mode tuned nicely dtt chanels and copied them to sd card, reverted back to g10b using hex editor, got my freesat chanels again and finaly could not copy .pwd files from sd card


i did not searched for freesat chanels in gw10 mode, irish dtt only

STB

rai555 wrote: »

yes, i changed hex to gw10 , while in gw10 mode tuned nicely dtt chanels and copied them to sd card, reverted back to g10b using hex editor, got my freesat chanels again and finaly could not copy .pwd files from sd card

i did not searched for freesat chanels in gw10 mode, irish dtt only

You cant search for freesat channels in g10w mode anyway as freesat doesnt exist on that model!

You havent done it in the order of my post.

Tune in stations in g10w mode.

You only backup to hotel SD card when you have reverted back to G10b mode!!!

Thats why it is stopping you, thank god. Your TV could have been bricked.

Why were you saving it in g10w mode to SD card and then reloading it when in g10b mode ?????

You dont have to do that. Once you tune in g10w mode it keeps your scanned DTT stations when you revert to g10b mode. Only then do a backup to the SD card for future use.

Wipe that card now. And backup to it. Is the TV in g10b mode now and are the DTT stations showing ?

rai555

STB wrote: »

You cant search for freesat channels in g10w mode anyway as freesat doesnt exist on that model!

You havent done it in the order of my post.

Tune in stations in g10w mode.

You only backup to hotel SD card when you have reverted back to G10b mode!!!

Thats why it is stopping you, thank god. Your TV could have been bricked.

Why were you saving it in g10w mode to SD card and then reloading it when in g10b mode ?????

You dont have to do that. Once you tune in g10w mode it keeps your scanned DTT stations when you revert to g10b mode. Only then do a backup to the SD card for future use.

Wipe that card now. And backup to it. Is the TV in g10b mode now and are the DTT stations showing ?

i thought tv might be bricked if hex editing would go wrong, thank you for help, will try again all steps

STB

If you are back in g10b mode now and dtt stations are showing, then all you have to do is backup to that SD card. Wipe the SD card on a PC and use the hotel copying from TV settings to SD card function only.

And the reason you are backing up to that card is so that you dont have to go through the g10w/g10b hex edit again, you simply load those settings from the SD card in the event that the stations disappear in the future. There is no other reason for using the SD card otherwise.

rai555

Got it working, no sound on few Irish channels, thank you STB

STB

rai555 wrote: »

Got it working, no sound on few Irish channels, thank you STB

Okay I just didnt want to see you kill your TV. Is the Freesat tuner also working ? This will confirm that you are back in g10b mode.

The sound problem is caused by an option in one of the menus called audio description - make sure it set to off by default.

That should sort it for them all.

There is also a manual option which would be painful if you had to do it all the time on the opt button on the remote which is to change it from nar to eng.