Is it time to make the SWP and company proscribed organisations?

Amhran Nua

On foot of the events at the recent mostly peaceful student protests, there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence that the protest was hijacked and trouble started by the SWP and the usual far left rent a crowd types:

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The USI rep on the Last Word was not happy with how the protest was hijacked by the usual mob of socialists, republicans and others of that ilk.

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Exactly right too. I was outside the dept of finance earlier and it was all socialist and sinn fein flags in the doorway. they started the trouble, not the students.

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At least one good thing to come from twitter was the early flagging of who was starting the trouble and all media reports I have heard since have reported this and by and large absolve the students. Of course you will have a number of eejits getting sucked in.

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I couldn't believe it today when I saw a group of these "student protesters" carrying Palestinian flags That said, they probably weren't students but rather the usual far-left loonies that live to hi-jack legitimate protests.

Any of our resident apologists care to explain the connection between Palestine and the re-introduction of third level fees?

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It seems protest was hi-jacked alright, but the sight of gardaí on horseback cantering down O' Connell street towards protestors does not make for a good "sound bite."

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The Gardai caused the trouble? Must have been a different protest I was watching......."attack dogs"! what happened the rabid dogs from earlier - downgraded?

The peaceful protest (and the mojority were there to protest peacfully) was taken over by an element of thuggary (probably the same "rent-a-thug" you get at a lot of these gatherings) who only wanted to cause trouble, incite the rest of the group to cause trouble and as a result cause mayhem in the city centre.
If the guards did not nip it in the bud when they did then I've no idea what could have happened.
I've dealt with some right d1ckhead5 in my time and there were a few there I recognised. No harm to get a bit of rough treatment. They ruined what was a really good peacful protest and instead of talking about the issues and what was highlighted the media and indeed all on here are talking about some mild violence.
Idiots.

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Hmmm there were an awful lot of "mature students" with SWP banners eh.

As for Gardai moving people along, what did you expect them do let the protest disrupt all the other people trying to get along with their lives in the area.

I feel sorry for the students, there was a great turnout and on the whole it was a very well behaved protest about a very valid gripe. It was hijacked by the usual assortment of idiots who are doing this at any sort of protest these days.

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Hijacking legitimate anger is the SWP's Raison d'être. Get young idealistic students early in fresher week, and get them signed up, use them as glorified paper boys and girls, to sell their rag, Within a few weeks they get fed up with "politics" and give up. The SWP is the most harmful organisation for young left wing student politics in this country.

There are probably a lot more but those are the ones I picked up.

I have my phone number added to one of their text lists, to keep an eye on things, and regularly receive messages about meeting to "radicalise the unions" among other things. My own small organisation has already had to eject several entryists from the ranks, and this pattern has been repeated throughout every new political group I have had contact with, which comes to over a dozen. No matter how well meaning a group or a protest, there is a fanatical hard core of far left extremists attempting to radicalise it, recruit within it, and bring some sort of red dawn forward. This has also led to a lot of organisations (no to NAMA for example) falling apart, as disillusioned members fade away leaving them hollow.

It's impossible to hold a protest without them showing up. Is it time therefore that we recognised that the SWP and its sock puppets do not have the best interests of the people of Ireland at heart, but are instead a self perpetuating cult-like organisation willing to do almost anything to advance its interests, and add them to the list of proscribed organisations, as detrimental to the future of the nation, or would that be an overreaction?

Wolfe Tone

Huge overreaction.

Who else would you ban? Didn't know you were a fascist.

Biggins

Over-reaction and besides, it would push them underground and we know the consequences of that route!

Amhran Nua

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Huge overreaction.

Don't leave us hanging, tell us why.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Who else would you ban? Didn't know you were a fascist.

You may note the title and tone of the thread are phrased as questions, I'm not making any statements. Usually its the people who don't like questions being asked who better qualify for the fascist sobriquet, also a notable hallmark of cults. Genuine attempts to reform and address the problems in the country are being stymied by these groups, in my opinion, would you disagree with this?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater

The issue, basically, is whether or not the SWP is an inherently violent group. I'm using the word "violent" here very broadly: I would class what happened yesterday as violence.

I think one should be extremely careful here. Firstly, repressing a political group should be a very very last resort, if a resort at all. For such repression to be justified it would have to be shown that the group are violent; that the kind of nonsense perpetrated yesterday was intentionally organized by the party.

Secondly, there's the issue of them going underground, as Biggins mentions. Members of the SWP etal are currently throwing bricks and paint at people; what will they start throwing if they are banned? I've talked to these people and they do live in an alternative reality where abusing members of the Gardaí is seen as a legitimate form of protest. On one of their Facebook groups someone asked, in response to the riots yesterday, "Are ye proud of yourselves now?" One of them answered "Yes, I am."

They see absolutely nothing wrong with violence and law-breaking as a way to make a point. So if you force these people under the radar, what will they start doing?


A postscript regarding the entryism: it's annoying, I know, but I don't think it is justification for them being restricted.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Do students giving off about the protestors not realise their silent peaceful protest would simply have been ignored and sometimes civil disobedience is necessary.

Byron85

I was involved with the SWP for a while and was at one stage asked to head up a "youth wing". I haven't been involved with them for a few years now and not everyone involved is a violent lunatic in the same way that everyone on the right isn't a gun wielding anti-abortion lunatic. Most of what I did when in the group was of a peaceful nature.

Amhran Nua

Byron85 wrote: »

Most of what I did when in the group was of a peaceful nature.

Eh, if not its perfectly understandable, but if you could elaborate on that bit it would be enlightening.

Byron85

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eh, if not its perfectly understandable, but if you could elaborate on that bit it would be enlightening.

Actually I just realised what I did there. Apologies. I say most of what I did because I went on a number of marches and some people might not construe that as not peaceful even though the marches themselves, my behaviour and the behaviour of my friends was peaceful.

southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

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This I agree with. Part of the problem is, outside of the far left and the anti-abortion people, I think a lot of protest "organizers" in Ireland are kind of inexperienced. Were there marshals on the marches? Were they trained before hand?

If some of these far-left groups really cared about the direction of the country, rather than their own political agenda, they would stop hijacking protests, in part because it makes everyone else reluctant to come out. Plus they show up to EVERYTHING, so it's not like they are even that effective.

That said, I don't think they should be banned outright, but they are an absolute ****ing headache for anyone trying to organize an even remotely progressive protest.

Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A bit of a tangent here, but if they refuse to vacate a peaceful protest, what would the students do, try to outpace them? I'm not saying one thing or another by that, just pondering possible outcomes.

Wolfe Tone

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Do students giving off about the protestors not realise their silent peaceful protest would simply have been ignored and sometimes civil disobedience is necessary.

Agreed.


The airwaves are clogged with discussions about the protests. If it was not for the violence etc, the protest would be forgotten. We certainly would not be talking about it as much. Instead we have USI heads coming on the radio with the opportunity to say why they were marching etc, and to discuss fees in general.

southsiderosie

Amhran Nua wrote: »

A bit of a tangent here, but if they refuse to vacate a peaceful protest, what would the students do, try to outpace them? I'm not saying one thing or another by that, just pondering possible outcomes.

Part of my old job involved organizing protests in Miami. No matter what the theme, there would inevitably be some right-wing anti-Castro lunatic with three sings and a Cuban flag cape who would try to jump to the front to get on camera. You can't really reason with some of these people - because they are the first to scream about free speech even as they try and shout everyone else down - so the best you can do is have march marshals keep an eye on them, and surround them with people carrying bigger signs and flags. Usually we would also assign a marshal a megaphone to lead chants right next to where they were, in order to drown out whatever nonsense they were trying to shout about.

We've also gotten around some of these issues via rules from the police themselves. For example, for a really contentious march, we weren't allowed to make picket signs with wood sticks - they had to be cardboard. Well, guess who didn't get the memo?

Amhran Nua

southsiderosie wrote: »

We've also gotten around some of these issues via rules from the police themselves. For example, for a really contentious march, we weren't allowed to make picket signs with wood sticks - they had to be cardboard. Well, guess who didn't get the memo?

Interesting. Were there any techniques for dealing with violent agitators from whatever source, people hiding bottles under their jackets and so on?

Sleepy

How about a far less over-bearing tactic: simply jail or deport anyone found guilty of violence at these events. The numbers that make up the violent idiots of these groups can't be more than a couple of hundred.

Take them off the streets and then if the peaceful members of these organisations show up to other groups protests they should be easily contained / marshalled...

DeVore

I've been complaining about these "groups" hijacking protests for ages. They have done far more harm then good. How many people are going to be put off protesting outside the dail on budget day now? I know I was going but now... I dont want to get caught between mounted cops and brick throwing idiots. I'll probably still go but if it heads that direction then I'm leaving and in the days coming up to the budget I'll be considering carefully the likelihood of it being hi-jacked.

DeV.

sponsoredwalk

Excuse me but when people, in a free society, choose to go to a protest
waiving pro-Palestinian flags that is hardly them taking over the f'ing
protest.

Furthermore, if the SWP members are getting violent don't you all think that
because you are all so active in politics you'd be smart enough to do
something I'm sure you've all heckled others about not doing, namely
writing letters in huge numbers to the SWP scolding them for
allowing their members to resort to thuggery and giving those who can't
think beyond the gut reaction some ammunition.

Before I go further I just have one simple request, any evidence it was
the SWP and not just randomers at this, or any other, rally???

If it is the SWP and you can provide evidence of them doing it at all of
these rallies then I'll help you out, I have an idea of how to affect this,
but if you're just looking for someone to blame and are just as quick to
scapegoat as the people you've quoted in your OP then I have no
sympathy.

Dozen Wicked Words

Sleepy wrote: »

How about a far less over-bearing tactic: simply jail or deport anyone found guilty of violence at these events. The numbers that make up the violent idiots of these groups can't be more than a couple of hundred.

Take them off the streets and then if the peaceful members of these organisations show up to other groups protests they should be easily contained / marshalled...

Internment?

HivemindXX

southsiderosie wrote: »

Were there marshals on the marches? Were they trained before hand?

There were marshals. I saw people with jackets identifying themselves as such shepherding the crowd as they spread out on to the path going around college green.

I think there's a limit to what actual peaceful protesters and their marshals can do to stop hijackers from doing their own thing.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Before I go further I just have one simple request, any evidence it was
the SWP and not just randomers at this, or any other, rally???

There is at least one eyewitness report in the quotes from the OP which indicates that they were responsible for at least part of the trouble. You may take it up with that poster if you wish.

Sleepy

No. Arrest or deportation for non-Irish citizens.

Public disorder and violence against members of AGS are crimes.

gandalf

DeVore wrote: »

I've been complaining about these "groups" hijacking protests for ages. They have done far more harm then good. How many people are going to be put off protesting outside the dail on budget day now? I know I was going but now... I dont want to get caught between mounted cops and brick throwing idiots. I'll probably still go but if it heads that direction then I'm leaving and in the days coming up to the budget I'll be considering carefully the likelihood of it being hi-jacked.

DeV.

That outlines my view as well. Considering I have lost my job recently I too was considering marching at that protest as well (probably with camera in hand!). But knowing that idiots like the SWP and the thugs from Eirigi will be there as well will probably dissuade me. The last thing I want is to be caught in trouble because some git wants to be a anarchist pin up hero.

I do think that prescribing the SWP would be a counter-productive move though and would play into their obvious victim politics even more.

I think Sleepy has hit the nail on the head here. We are too soft on those who have caused trouble at these protests. They should be charged and found guilty of violent crimes. Video evidence should be examined and anyone clearly identified from them throwing missiles should be charged.

I also believe that organisations like the USI who have a very valid reason for protesting should be very vocal in telling the SWP and their hangers on to keep away from any future protests and their marshals should work with the Gardai in excluding them from marches when they are identified as taking part.

Scrambled egg

Having attended the protest march yesterday and seen the violence and the types who initiated it, perhaps something must be done about the likes of the SWP and the other extreme left interests who were there.

Throughout the march I was mindful of the red banners and the leaflets that they were giving out , and how very little of what they distributed was actually about the fees. I received leaflets on the military industrial complex and seminars on the teachings of Marx. All of which is well and good, but totally irrelevant yesterday.

When I stood at a distance watching the protest outside the Dept of Finance, red flags were the most prominent at the very front of the building , in front of the Garda cordon. Needless to say , it was these flag bearers who started the trouble with the egg throwing and militant behavior. And then , after the peaceful sit-down protest outside the Dail , when the bloke organizing the thing , called it quits and told everyone to leave peacefully, we had one of the SWP on a microphone complaining telling us to go nowhere and how the Guards pushed him , he was quickly jeered and told to F*%k off.

The SWP and the likes are tiny organisations which don't have the support of anybody. If they organised a protest march nobody would turn up , which is why I think they feel the need to hijack other protests with their free Palestine rhetoric and hang the bankers lark. It seems unreasonable to even consider banning them as it comes across as undemocratic, but perhaps if the organizers made clear to the leaders of these organizations that they are not welcome on the march , then perhaps they won't interfere.

Just my two cents

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Excuse me but when people, in a free society, choose to go to a protest
waiving pro-Palestinian flags that is hardly them taking over the f'ing
protest.

No, it is diluting the message. The only signs should be promoting the message, and the only flags should be national flags (or flags relating to the actual matter at hand).

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Furthermore, if the SWP members are getting violent don't you all think that
because you are all so active in politics you'd be smart enough to do
something I'm sure you've all heckled others about not doing, namely
writing letters in huge numbers to the SWP scolding them for
allowing their members to resort to thuggery and giving those who can't
think beyond the gut reaction some ammunition.

Many of these groups do not give a **** about what other groups think, and are only there to promote their own agenda. Hence leaflets and flags about issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. I do think that march coordinators need to talk to other groups, in part to demand a coherent consistent message, but I think some of this is just inexperience.

The broader issue, however, is that the behavior of the SWP and affiliated groups at pretty much every non-right wing protest in Ireland has put off a large number of people from participating in anything. They need to cop the **** on.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Before I go further I just have one simple request, any evidence it was
the SWP and not just randomers at this, or any other, rally???

SWP, eirigi, communists and anarcists come with flags and are easy to spot; there are videos all over youtube and photostreams all over twitter and flickr. My connection is running to slowly right now to hotlink.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

If it is the SWP and you can provide evidence of them doing it at all of
these rallies then I'll help you out, I have an idea of how to affect this,
but if you're just looking for someone to blame and are just as quick to
scapegoat as the people you've quoted in your OP then I have no
sympathy.

There is a great deal of material online; check it out.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There is at least one eyewitness report in the quotes from the OP which indicates that they were responsible for at least part of the trouble. You may take it up with that poster if you wish.

Oh jesus... I'm sorry, I have noticed your posts many times, I do respect your
posts & I do respect the fact that you take on difficult arguments in
with a logical perspective but here I think this is nothing but an witch-hunt
whereby you wish to scapegoat the easy target because plenty
of people disagree with the SWP.

Lets just be on the safe side though. Lets assume the SWP ARE the
cause of these protests. Please read this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68850931#post68850931
and spread the word to everyone to follow this line of approach. I think
your, and many people's, goal is to get protests to be peaceful and not to
give deniers any stupid reason to write off protests so if it is I think you'll
see this as a good idea. Please read the thread.

Di0genes

Back in my day at Shannon in the run up to the war, the problem was the SWPers unwillingness to engage in NVDA, that was seen as a problem.

Once again they find themselves tactically at odds with the groups they're supposedly protesting. with.

southsiderosie

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Interesting. Were there any techniques for dealing with violent agitators from whatever source, people hiding bottles under their jackets and so on?

These are the kinds of things that trained organizers can spot early on. Most of our events involved partnerships with a number of organizations, so if someone looked dodgy we'd try to figure out who they were with, and talk to their coordinator to "watch their guys". We did have issues with anarchists who, granted, would make really cool puppet effigies, but would come with scarves to cover their faces for when they were ready to start some mess. But most of them were pretty young, so when a bunch of big angry Puerto Ricans with megaphones told them to cut it out, they generally did. When it comes to older "Seasoned" troublemakers, a good working relationship with the police is invaluable, because we could point them out and they would keep an eye on things and not blame us (completely) if it got out of hand. But, again, I think a lot of organizers in Ireland are inexperienced, and unfortunately the Gardai don't have much experience with large peaceful protests and tend to overreact. This is a dangerous dynamic.

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

No, it is diluting the message. The only signs should be promoting the message, and the only flags should be national flags (or flags relating to the actual matter at hand).

So you have a problem with people freely choosing to do what they
want in a public space, nice...

southsiderosie wrote: »

Many of these groups do not give a **** about what other groups think, and are only there to promote their own agenda. Hence leaflets and flags about issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Everybody promotes their own agenda, you do that with your opinion
every time you speak ffs,I hope you criticize your favourite author for
only talking about his/her book at a talk and not every single other book
in the world :rolleyes: This is merely the argument of someone who wants to
condemn those at the brunt of their argument.

As for handing out leaflets, I respect people freedom to do whatever the
hell they want within legal bounds. If you can't focus on more than one
issue at a time & if the leaflets actually distract your gaze from the
main reasons you're there then I think there are other issues you've got to
deal with first...

southsiderosie wrote: »

I do think that march coordinators need to talk to other groups, in part to demand a coherent consistent message, but I think some of this is just inexperience.

18 May there were many groups working together all speaking from one
stage, I think that one was pretty co-ordinated so they have experience
in working together. Also, I think yesterday had a consistent message,
it was about fees. Again if you get so sidetracked by people holding up
banners for Palestine and can't focus on more than one thing I really
don't know how to help you with that.

southsiderosie wrote: »

The broader issue, however, is that the behavior of the SWP and affiliated groups at pretty much every non-right wing protest in Ireland has put off a large number of people from participating in anything. They need to cop the **** on.

The behaviour of members of the protests have put off people from
attending more protests. I'm not going to instantly assume it's the SWP,
in fact if you read the link in my post above I've just contacted the SWP
demanding a response on their position. If you care as much as your
post indicates about this matter I think you should read that post and
send your own message to the SWP too, this way we can actually find out
who is behind this and try to curb it.

southsiderosie wrote: »

SWP, eirigi, communists and anarcists come with flags and are easy to spot; there are videos all over youtube and photostreams all over twitter and flickr. My connection is running to slowly right now to hotlink.

In a free society I respect a nazi's right to brandish the swastika, I don't
agree with it but if nazi's come to the protest I can distinguish between
their motive's and the motive's of the people in attendance.

southsiderosie wrote: »

There is a great deal of material online; check it out.

Yes but can you show me the material you've obviously found that
condemns the SWP for what they did yesterday.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

here I think this is nothing but an witch-hunt whereby you wish to scapegoat the easy target because plenty of people disagree with the SWP.

On the contrary, I and others have identified the SWP and their many sock puppets as a real problem in enacting beneficial change in Ireland. And lest we forget, the problem isn't just at protest rallies - we had a regional group wiped out because the guy who volunteered to head it up scared off everyone by suddenly coming out with marxist propaganda. Any small group, and these groups always start small, will be almost certainly be targeted.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Please read the thread.

I have no intention of trying to engage with a group that acts as they do. If they aren't aware of the damage they are doing, there's not much more that can be said.

southsiderosie wrote: »

But, again, I think a lot of organizers in Ireland are inexperienced, and unfortunately the Gardai don't have much experience with large peaceful protests and tend to overreact. This is a dangerous dynamic.

Some good points and some invaluable ideas, thanks. I might post a link to this thread to the USI guys.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I have no intention of trying to engage with a group that acts as they do. If they aren't aware of the damage they are doing, there's not much more that can be said.

By this noble logic you'd think protesting was futile because trying to
communicate a message to Fianna Fail is stupid because look at the
damage they've done! If they aren't aware of the damage they're doing
then there's not much more that can be said, they wont heed the calls
of the protestors :rolleyes: It's funny that you'll try to engage Fianna Fail by
protesting but not the SWP because you've targeted them, without
any evidence other than the remarks of one poster in your OP, good stuff.