Is it time to make the SWP and company proscribed organisations?

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

we had a regional group wiped out because the guy who volunteered to head it up scared off everyone by suddenly coming out with marxist propaganda. Any small group, and these groups always start small, will be almost certainly be targeted.

So talking about Marx's idea's instantly aligns you with the SWP?

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

It's funny that you'll try to engage Fianna Fail by protesting

I've no particular desire to engage with FF either, if I thought that was a realistic option I wouldn't have the sig that I do; the only people who need to hear what is being said are the citizens of Ireland. If in the process FF takes notice of what's being said and acts on it, thats fine by me.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So talking about Marx's idea's instantly aligns you with the SWP?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its pretty much the exact same tactic as is being used in the protests.

jackbenimble

Deploy 1 Para.

Wolfe Tone

jackbenimble wrote: »

Deploy 1 Para.

Oh the fcuking hilarity.

What a disgusting comment.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've no particular desire to engage with FF either, if I thought that was a realistic option I wouldn't have the sig that I do; the only people who need to hear what is being said are the citizens of Ireland. If in the process FF takes notice of what's being said and acts on it, thats fine by me.

So in other words we have another political party that are willing to ignore
certain people, only this time it's FF and the SWP. I'm sorry but even
talking about protests is you interacting with FF, albeit in opposition.
Similarly by e-mail to the SWP is hardly me siding with them I've requested
a definite position on things like throwing eggs, bottles etc... i.e. all of
the stupid stuff that blacklists the possibility of successful protests.
Your response is extremely lacking, you're not interacting with the SWP
because a member of your organization spoke about Marx & because
you have second-hand evidence they are the root of all evil.
Sounds about the calber of a political party alright... :rolleyes: You'll fit
right in.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its pretty much the exact same tactic as is being used in the protests.

If what talks like a ducks back? Your volunteer is in the SWP because he
spoke about Marx? :eek: Well then surely the SWP are baby-eating atheist
marxists!!! :eek:

What tactic btw???

If the SWP are marxists (which you'll find is something you'll actually have
to research to get an answer to) then how does that disqualify the fact
that we should request a response from them on their position in protests,
or more explicitly, their position with respect to violent actions in protests?
I've simply requested an official position but you've got the smoking gun
apparently that proves their guilt and that kind of logic is precisely
what the people want from a political party. Thanks for letting us know...

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So in other words we have another political party that are willing to ignore certain people, only this time it's FF and the SWP.

A few dozen professional high profile economists tried to engage with FF by nationally publishing a letter pointing out the dangers of their economic policies, and were roundly ignored. What chance do you think a group of concerned citizens have?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

If the SWP are marxists (which you'll find is something you'll actually have to research to get an answer to) then how does that disqualify the fact that we should request a response from them on their position in protests, or more explicitly, their position with respect to violent actions in protests?

By all means, request a response, I will watch with interest. If something does change as a result of your initiative it is then possible that the SWP and co have joined the rest of us in the real world. I just don't see it happening, personally. The tactic is called entryism, there's a link to the definition in the OP.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

By all means, request a response, I will watch with interest. If something does change as a result of your initiative it is then possible that the SWP and co have joined the rest of us in the real world. I just don't see it happening, personally. The tactic is called entryism, there's a link to the definition in the OP.

I'll just quickly say that unless a barrage of e-mails hit them requesting an
official response what point is there for them to respond to just me. I
can't do this by myself and it's definitely something everybody would like
clarification on, that's why I've posted it, so that everybody would do it
as well, i.e. the idea of active mass political participation.

Scofflaw

jackbenimble wrote: »

Deploy 1 Para.

And with that last unpleasant call for violence, we bid goodbye to jackbenimble until his near-inevitable re-reg.

Permabanned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So you have a problem with people freely choosing to do what they
want in a public space, nice...

All of your responses blithely skip past the fact that while people have a right to do what they want in public, those with a bit of cop-on will use discretion. Showing up at a protest organized by another group around a specific political agenda, and then carrying signs and flags and distributing material that have nothing to do with that agenda is disrespectful. Yes we have free speech, but a modicum of common sense is necessary.

Let me put this slightly differently:if eirigi were to organize a march commemorating the Easter Rising, and I showed up with a big Cuban flag shouting "Viva Fidel! Viva la revolucion!", I would be an asshole, and the organizers would have a right to be mad at me - even if I did it because I support armed rebellion to overthrow tyrannical regimes. And God help me if I decided to crash a commemoration event for the hunger strikers, like the one on the O'Connell street bridge a few weeks ago.

Technically people can do whatever they want - within limits - in public space. They even have the right to counter-protest (hence you tend to see both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian groups demonstrating when something big happens). And most groups that protest want as many warm bodies as possible and are happy to have supporters. But there are a band of usual suspects that protest EVERYTHING and embarrass themselves and groups that should ostensibly be political allies in the process.

PanchoVilla

Exactly right too. I was outside the dept of finance earlier and it was all socialist and sinn fein flags in the doorway. they started the trouble, not the students.

Are people seriously trying to say there are no students in the SWP or SF? Are they saying that student members of the SWP or SF have no right to join a student march? I'd like to know how the OP can explain the following pictures of numerous students wearing yellow t-shirts at the DoF. Were they all SWP or SF supporters or were they just students who decided to have their own little protest?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/sets/72157625183329457/with/5144780666/

Trying to blame the SWP or SF for what happened is absolutely ridiculous and this thread is nothing more than baseless slander and defamation. I'm not a member of either party but I agree with a lot of their policies and I'm sick of the mainstream parties (or people who just don't agree with them) trying to bash them when those parties have done nothing but harm to this country.

PanchoVilla

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'll just quickly say that unless a barrage of e-mails hit them requesting an
official response what point is there for them to respond to just me. I
can't do this by myself and it's definitely something everybody would like
clarification on, that's why I've posted it, so that everybody would do it
as well, i.e. the idea of active mass political participation.

I guess we should also bombard the email of USI asking why so many of it's members were at the DoF.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/sets/72157625183329457/with/5144171881/

This was an action by a group of students, not an action by SF, the SWP, or the USI. Trying to blame anyone in this situation is pointless.

southsiderosie

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Trying to blame the SWP or SF for what happened is absolutely ridiculous and this thread is nothing more than baseless slander and defamation. I'm not a member of either party but I agree with a lot of their policies and I'm sick of the mainstream parties (or people who just don't agree with them) trying to bash them when those parties have done nothing but harm to this country.

The behavior of FF doesn't take away from the fact that most of the population thinks that the far-left parties and organizations are a bunch of muppets.

I documented a lot of protests in Ireland, and the same far left were pretty much guaranteed to show up at EVERYTHING carrying their own signs and leaflets, which used to drive organizers crazy. By all means come, but for God's sake, carry a banner or picket sign prepared by the organizers and act in a way that is in accordance with the wishes of the people who put the event together. When people show up ostensibly to support other protests, and then hand out their own propoganda and carry their own banners, what this says to event organizers is: "my agenda is more important than yours". And that is exactly why these groups have few political allies: they don't behave as partners, they behave as shameless self-promoters.

PanchoVilla

The following is a statement by Free Education for Everyone (FEE) regarding their action at the Department of Finance yesterday. In light of this, I think it would be wise for the OP to retract his baseless allegations that the SWP were responsible for the events outside the DoF.

Students from Free Education for Everyone (NUI Maynooth, NUI Galway) and the Students in Solidarity Network (University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin) issued a call for a clearly visible left-wing presence on today’s demonstration against the re-introduction of third level fees, in the form of a registration fee increase or otherwise. This call was answered by student activists from a range of political organisations, including the Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Party, Workers Solidarity Movement, éirigí, the 32 CSM and others. For the most part however, the call was answered by independent students.

Up to 1,000 students joined our breakaway at Kildare Street, staging a short sit down protest outside the home of the corrupt and unaccountable political establishment of this state. Recognising the futility of marching from A to B and listening to the same speeches from aspiring politicians, many of these students joined us in marching to the Department of Finance where a sit in demonstration was held. It is the Department of Finance which is attacking ordinary working people with such vigour in recent times, and this occupation was symbolic of the anger of students and the Irish public.

http://free-education.info/press-release-a-statement-regarding-events-today-at-the-dept-of-finance/

Sticky_Fingers

Is that an anarchist flag I see? Isn't state intervention and big government such as student grants supposed to be anathema to their beliefs? Either the person bearing that flag has little or no concept of what anarchism really means implying that they really cannot afford time to protest when they should be studying or they have separate agenda to those who are there over fees.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/5144172025/in/set-72157625183329457/

muffy

As someone who was actually there at the Dept of Finance yesterday, I would like to say the SWP were urging the use of civil disobedience and were discouraging violence. No one stormed the building to gain entry. As I have mentioned, a rent-a-mob arrived and stirred up some pushing and shoving, which the gardai sat and watched from atop their horses. When the gardai used excessive force on the people sitting in the Dept of Finance, this begot the violent scenes. Again, the SWP encouraged people to remain sitting down (again, this is non violent protest/civil disobedience).
I will say I am not currently, or have I been, involved with any kind of political organisation. I went along yesterday to the Dept of Finance to engage in peaceful protesting, separate from USI (I'm not interested in their rhetoric). I have a new found respect for SWP, having previously considered them slightly ridiculous for their hi-jacking of Anti War marches, etc. The tactics they promoted yesterday were those of civil disobedience and non violence- if you are ideologically against this form of protest, then that is your view. I cannot say the same for other groups, who I will not name in the interest of, well, not pointing the finger.

Di0genes

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The following is a statement by Free Education for Everyone (FEE) regarding their action at the Department of Finance yesterday. In light of this, I think it would be wise for the OP to retract his baseless allegations that the SWP were responsible for the events outside the DoF.



http://free-education.info/press-release-a-statement-regarding-events-today-at-the-dept-of-finance/

Twenty quid for the SSF fund says that they're an SWP front.

PanchoVilla

Di0genes wrote: »

Twenty quid for the SSF fund says that they're an SWP front.

This isn't the conspiracy theories forum. If you have any evidence to support this claim, then you should probably provide it. Otherwise it's nothing but baseless allegations and contributes nothing to the discussion.

20Cent

Ban a political party over some scuffles. Crazy if Chavez did it ye'd all be calling him a dictator.

Amhran Nua

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I'd like to know how the OP can explain the following pictures of numerous students wearing yellow t-shirts at the DoF. Were they all SWP or SF supporters or were they just students who decided to have their own little protest?

I especially like this one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/5144777990/in/set-72157625183329457/lightbox/
Where it shows all the red flags on the business end of the mounted guards and all the yellow t-shirts on the other side. It must have been some show if that's the best agitprop the cameras could manage.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Trying to blame the SWP or SF for what happened is absolutely ridiculous and this thread is nothing more than baseless slander and defamation.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

In light of this, I think it would be wise for the OP to retract his baseless allegations that the SWP were responsible for the events outside the DoF.

I've seven quotes in that OP upon which to base those allegations, note not solely aimed at the SWP, you can do what you like with that. I could probably find more, but what's the point.

muffy wrote: »

I have a new found respect for SWP, having previously considered them slightly ridiculous for their hi-jacking of Anti War marches, etc. The tactics they promoted yesterday were those of civil disobedience and non violence

USI reps are reported as having been quite disappointed at their ridiculous hijacking of this march as well. Over and over again its the same thing; its safe to say people are fed to their back teeth with it.

sponsoredwalk

muffy wrote: »

As someone who was actually there at the Dept of Finance yesterday, I would like to say the SWP were urging the use of civil disobedience and were discouraging violence. No one stormed the building to gain entry. As I have mentioned, a rent-a-mob arrived and stirred up some pushing and shoving, which the gardai sat and watched from atop their horses. When the gardai used excessive force on the people sitting in the Dept of Finance, this begot the violent scenes. Again, the SWP encouraged people to remain sitting down (again, this is non violent protest/civil disobedience).
I will say I am not currently, or have I been, involved with any kind of political organisation. I went along yesterday to the Dept of Finance to engage in peaceful protesting, separate from USI (I'm not interested in their rhetoric). I have a new found respect for SWP, having previously considered them slightly ridiculous for their hi-jacking of Anti War marches, etc. The tactics they promoted yesterday were those of civil disobedience and non violence- if you are ideologically against this form of protest, then that is your view. I cannot say the same for other groups, who I will not name in the interest of, well, not pointing the finger.

So to the OP, now that there is evidence that is just as good as
yours, i.e. a comment, that actually contradicts your perspective
what do you say? This is why I asked you for more than off-hand
comments because it gets us nowhere, but you're dead-set on
condemning the SWP because you perceive a marxist influence
and because "they aren't aware of the damage they are doing", but
here we have equal evidence (at your level) contradicting your
claims. This is hardly the caliber of the claims of a serious political
discussion and coming from someone in a new political organization that
obviously seeks to challenge them I thought we could expect more.
Here is a first-hand comment telling us they were actually
encouraging people to sit down when the guards got frisky. I mean,
who are we to believe? This is an example of why politics students
badly need a course in general science at university level, to seriously
understand the relevance of actual evidence...

All I meant in the thread requesting a response from the SWP was
to get an official clarification that they are in fact not doing the
crazy things you and SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE ON BOARDS like to
insinuate. May be it's the people in Eirigli or some other organization
whose members are doing these things but seriously, whoever is
doing things such as throwing objects, challenging guards etc... is
literally tarnishing the whole idea and if we don't work to stop these
****ers in any way possible, i.e. getting organizations to release
official condemnations of such things, there is just ample ammunition
for those wishing to tarnish the idea of protesting. It seems to be
working seeing as so many people post here talking about how they
"used to protest" etc...

I think it's a good idea to get all of these organizations to forward a
message of condemnation, I mean they are supposed to be representing
what we think, right? Are they?? If we want them to launch a
condemnation then you'd think it would be the logical thing to do?
I can hardly e-mail everyone of them in lone-ranger mode when the
whole point of an exercise like this is to show that it's the people, not
person, that feels this way. I wouldn't be posting this if I hadn't gotten
sick of reading other people's posts critical of protests because of
these violent hijacker organizations that may or may not even exist...

sherdydan

I was at this yesterday, and was at the department of finance for a while after the main protest had finished up, I was trying to get back to my bus and had to go the way i had come so was stuck there for a while, not being a dublin native i did not know any other way to go.

I can tell you, this was all instigated by the socialist workers party and a few idiotic students, who probably havent the slightest notion what the SWP even stand for. It was sickening to see, eirigi were also there. This crowd didnt care about college fee's or the likes, what they wanted was photos of them attacking the dept. of finance with a considerable crowd behind them, and unfortunately thats what they got.

And for anyone who considers the gardai to have been heavy handed, they were far from it, anytime they moved forward, they moved batons drawn, but would not hit unless there was a neccessity to do so. the gardai were spot on.

feicim

Sleepy wrote: »

How about a far less over-bearing tactic: simply jail or deport anyone found guilty of violence at these events. The numbers that make up the violent idiots of these groups can't be more than a couple of hundred.

I think in the current climate deportation would be an incentive not a deterrant.:eek:

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So to the OP, now that there is evidence that is just as good as
yours, i.e. a comment, that actually contradicts your perspective
what do you say?

Do any of you really have a clue what you're supporting? Non violent protest? These are the same people who were involved in the attempt to storm Dáil Éireann straight through a police line, and then called for an escalation of that action.

SWP wrote:

The overwhelming feeling of the march was that we could not be satisfied with a single protest, but instead must escalate the action. The call went out to return again next week with double the numbers in a movement of growing protests. This was received enthusiastically by the protestors, many of whom took posters for next Tuesday's march.

I've no idea what your definition of civil disobedience is, but forcing your way into central government buildings isn't it.

Ach its pointless arguing with these people.

PanchoVilla

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've seven quotes in that OP upon which to base those allegations, note not solely aimed at the SWP, you can do what you like with that. I could probably find more, but what's the point.

You quote seven comments from boards users, I've linked a press release from Free Education for Everyone (FEE) claiming responsibility for the sit-in at the DoF. You're calling for the SWP to be proscribed based on false information and assumptions that they were responsible for the events that took place.

Once again, I'm asking you to retract your claim that the SWP were responsible for the actions taken at the DoF. You have no evidence to support that accusation, whereas I have clear evidence to the contrary.

feicim

DeVore wrote: »

I've been complaining about these "groups" hijacking protests for ages. They have done far more harm then good. How many people are going to be put off protesting outside the dail on budget day now? I know I was going but now... I dont want to get caught between mounted cops and brick throwing idiots. I'll probably still go but if it heads that direction then I'm leaving and in the days coming up to the budget I'll be considering carefully the likelihood of it being hi-jacked.

DeV.

Why it is in YOUR OWN INTEREST not to strike or protest at this time.

sponsoredwalk

I like how you engage in double-read.

SWP wrote:

The overwhelming feeling of the march was that we could not be satisfied with a single protest, but instead must escalate the action. The call went out to return again next week with double the numbers in a movement of growing protests. This was received enthusiastically by the protestors, many of whom took posters for next Tuesday's march.

Quote the part where the SWP stormed the building.

Oh, wait. There's that thing called evidence :rolleyes:

SWP wrote:

Reflecting too the spirit of Greek resistance, a section of the march attempted to storm the Dail as the politicians were sitting, in a protest against the wholy undemocratic way the Dail parties were ramming through cuts for working class people while pouring billions into paying off the gambling debts of the bankers, speculators and developers.

Yes, that's the SWP's overriding principle alright, to storm buildings, I mean
if you read that in a particular way it does swing :rolleyes:

You should see the video too, it's in that thread quoted in blue above this post,
why is it in your OWN interest ....
I mean you can clearly see the SWP leaders led the crowd right up to the gate's
ready for action

muffy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

USI reps are reported as having been quite disappointed at their ridiculous hijacking of this march as well. Over and over again its the same thing; its safe to say people are fed to their back teeth with it.

Keeping my feelings on the USI aside, I don't agree with this statement. The issue of education cuts is exactly the kind of area the SWP have every right to be involved in. They are an organisation for social equality! They didn't hijack anything. The simply made their own point, in their own way (again, I'll say non-violent way). The USI coming out with this statement doesn't surprise me to be honest, but saying a Socialist group hi jacked a march about cuts to education - an issue which will affect the less privileged in society and create an elitist style culture*- indicates to me a lack of understanding of ideology from the USI spokespeople. Most of the SWP people there were students as it happens. It's the usual "lets blame the Socialists" type thing.

*this had been added to illustrate an ideology, not to elicit debate on uni. fees.

Amhran Nua

PanchoVilla wrote: »

You quote seven comments from boards users, I've linked a press release from Free Education for Everyone (FEE) claiming responsibility for the sit-in at the DoF. You're calling for the SWP to be proscribed based on false information and assumptions that they were responsible for the events that took place.

If you have a quick read of the thread again, I'm not in fact calling for it to be proscribed. I am asking people what they think and highlighting the damage caused by these groups. Having heard what other members of boards have to say, I'm happy enough to make other groups aware of the best means of dealing with this interefence with legitimate protests.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Once again, I'm asking you to retract your claim that the SWP were responsible for the actions taken at the DoF. You have no evidence to support that accusation, whereas I have clear evidence to the contrary.

You did see the call for an escalation of the attack on the Dáil, right?

PanchoVilla

sherdydan wrote: »

I was at this yesterday, and was at the department of finance for a while after the main protest had finished up, I was trying to get back to my bus and had to go the way i had come so was stuck there for a while, not being a dublin native i did not know any other way to go.

I can tell you, this was all instigated by the socialist workers party and a few idiotic students, who probably havent the slightest notion what the SWP even stand for. It was sickening to see, eirigi were also there. This crowd didnt care about college fee's or the likes, what they wanted was photos of them attacking the dept. of finance with a considerable crowd behind them, and unfortunately thats what they got.

And for anyone who considers the gardai to have been heavy handed, they were far from it, anytime they moved forward, they moved batons drawn, but would not hit unless there was a neccessity to do so. the gardai were spot on.

Are you really going to continue down this path? FEE have already claimed responsibility for the events outside the DoF and you still want to continue bashing the SWP? Oh, you were there so you must know exactly what went on behind the scenes. Let's all just stop this nonsense if we are to discuss these issues in a mature and responsible fashion.

Students from Free Education for Everyone (NUI Maynooth, NUI Galway) and the Students in Solidarity Network (University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin) issued a call for a clearly visible left-wing presence on today’s demonstration against the re-introduction of third level fees, in the form of a registration fee increase or otherwise. This call was answered by student activists from a range of political organisations, including the Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Party, Workers Solidarity Movement, éirigí, the 32 CSM and others. For the most part however, the call was answered by independent students.

http://free-education.info/press-release-a-statement-regarding-events-today-at-the-dept-of-finance/

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I like how you engage in double-read.

Sigh.

muffy wrote: »

Keeping my feelings on the USI aside, I don't agree with this statement.

I don't care. There is a quotation in the OP that makes the USI position clear. As it turns out, I'm in favour of free university fees as well. Just not as another step towards the glorious revolution.