Is it time to make the SWP and company proscribed organisations?

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You did see the call for an escalation of the attack on the Dáil, right?

Seriously? Did you even read it???

SWP wrote:

The overwhelming feeling of the march was that we could not be satisfied with a single protest, but instead must escalate the action. The call went out to return again next week with double the numbers in a movement of growing protests. This was received enthusiastically by the protestors, many of whom took posters for next Tuesday's march.

Lets break it into baby steps, "The overwhelming feeling of the march"
now, this is the feeling of the crowd, "was that we could not be satisfied
with a single protest, but instead must escalate the action." Now,
you've obviously chosen to read the word action as the SWP lusting
for more attacks on the DAIL, but a sane person realises that they
mean another march. In fact, if you went to any of the subsequent
marches you'd realise they did not go off escalating the action.
Shocking stuff, seriously... It's like we're dealing with political grammatical
tactics in this thread :rolleyes:

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Seriously? Did you even read it???

So what you're saying is that the SWP condemns the attack on the democratic institution of the Dáíl?

PanchoVilla

Amhran Nua wrote: »

If you have a quick read of the thread again, I'm not in fact calling for it to be proscribed. I am asking people what they think and highlighting the damage caused by these groups. Having heard what other members of boards have to say, I'm happy enough to make other groups aware of the best means of dealing with this interefence with legitimate protests.

You'll make a great Irish politician one day, saying one thing then trying to make out you actually meant another. Anyone who reads the title of this ridiculous thread can understand what you mean.

I am asking people what they think and highlighting the damage caused by these groups.

I personally think what they've done for the Turkish workers employed by Gama was incredible. I think the work they do to highlight the atrocities carried out in Gaza is admirable. They have done more for the working people of this country and others than any other party sitting in the Daíl. You may not like them personally but you have no right whatsoever to come on here and slander them with false accusations and petty insults.

Edit: Actually, I'm glad you posted this thread. Irish people interested in politics can clearly see the sneaky, backhanded tactics your "party" will use to slander another political organization with false accusations. You have a lot to learn about politics.

muffy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Sigh.


I don't care. There is a quotation in the OP that makes the USI position clear. As it turns out, I'm in favour of free university fees as well. Just not as another step towards the glorious revolution.

OK, well this is your opinion. I have stated mine. I don't understand why you said you don't care? Regarding the point about the USI position, I have made it clear that following the USI is not for me, for a variety of reasons-but that is neither here nor there really in the context of this debate.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So what you're saying is that the SWP condemns the attack on the democratic institution of the Dáíl?

I don't speak for them but they didn't instigate it, I have not seen them
say anything about it other than what you quoted but seeing as you'll
base your conclusions on a passage such as that you've quoted, for me, it
brings what you base your conclusions on into a seriously skeptical
light. We have you selectively reading their own words, quoting a
few people off boards as fact, I mean what calibre of argument is this???

If you seen the video I spoke about in the "Why is it in YOUR OWN
INTEREST" thread quoted above you'd see that a lot of people were
there. These were just ordinary people as well as SWP and others and
I mean, 40-50 year olds just marching were at the front, got taken in
with the crowd and then hit with batons. This is hardly the
cunning plan of the root of all evil SWP it's just a simple case of
the psychology of the crowd running it's course because those at the
front led the crowd up to the gates.

Seriously, this selectiveness really emphasizes the future you'll have as a
politician lol

Amhran Nua

PanchoVilla wrote: »

You'll make a great Irish politician one day, saying one thing then trying to make out you actually meant another. Anyone who reads the title of this ridiculous thread can understand what you mean.

I personally think what they've done for the Turkish workers employed by Gama was incredible. I think the work they do to highlight the atrocities carried out in Gaza is admirable. They have done more for the working people of this country and others than any other party sitting in the Daíl. You may not like them personally but you have no right whatsoever to come on here and slander them with false accusations and petty insults.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

These were just ordinary people as well as SWP and others and
I mean, 40-50 year olds just marching were at the front, got taken in
with the crowd and then hit with batons.

Ah I see, the Dáil was attacked by accident.

This thread certainly is a great testament to the indoctrination abilities of these groups, if nothing else.

southsiderosie

I will repeat my question to those who think it is fine to use an organized protest to promote their own agenda:

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a 1916 celebration waving a Cuban flag and distributing material about the "Glorious uprising in the Sierra Maestra"?

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a hunger striker commemoration demonstration with a big picture of Aminatou Haidar?

Do you think Sinn Fein or eirigi would have a right to be mad? Because it's all about free speech. Right?

Amhran Nua

Here's an interesting video of the Dáil incident...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Jgkrk6WZY

I count three SWP flags on the front line, and who knows how many more shoving from behind.

PanchoVilla

southsiderosie wrote: »

I will repeat my question to those who think it is fine to use an organized protest to promote their own agenda:

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a 1916 celebration waving a Cuban flag and distributing material about the "Glorious uprising in the Sierra Maestra"?

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a hunger striker commemoration demonstration with a big picture of Aminatou Haidar?

Do you think Sinn Fein or eirigi would have a right to be mad? Because it's all about free speech. Right?

Can you show how SWP and SF students showing up to a student protest is in any way hijacking the protest or using it to promote their own agenda? Or is it simply the fact that they came representing their own political groups instead of the USI that you have an issue with? Are SF and SWP students not allowed to show their support for their fellow students?

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

I will repeat my question to those who think it is fine to use an organized protest to promote their own agenda:

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a 1916 celebration waving a Cuban flag and distributing material about the "Glorious uprising in the Sierra Maestra"?

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a hunger striker commemoration demonstration with a big picture of Aminatou Haidar?

Do you think Sinn Fein or eirigi would have a right to be mad? Because it's all about free speech. Right?

Yes, don't you see this happening with Orange marchers, with Fred Phelps
going to funerals of soldiers with hate-filled propaganda? Neo-Nazi's and
KKK marches, all of this is the meaning of freedom of speech ffs,
if you're not going to defend freedom of speech for those you most
critically disagree with then you don't deal in freedom of speech.

This particular case you mention, going to rallies with Palestinian flags is
a triviality compared to what could happen, I actually can't believe
something so trivial would annoy anyone What's next, a crowd
castigating some kid with a Justin Beiber t-shirt on while at a Metallica
concert because he's not in line with the pre-supposed beliefs at this
event?

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Here's an interesting video of the Dáil incident...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Jgkrk6WZY

I count three SWP flags on the front line, and who knows how many more shoving from behind.

And this is supposed to be a criticism? Is this how low it's gotten? I
told you to go into that thread because this video is in there, along with
another. There is a 6-minute video in there that shows it all.

Still, you've been claiming they basically planned this, planned to escalate
it etc... all before you had any evidence. Now your fishing for some
loopholes, I mean wtf... How can someone who is honest pre-decide
on what they believe before they have evidence? You haven't addressed
the claim in this thread that the SWP were in fact telling people to sit
down either?

And, how is it that if a few people from the SWP leading the crowd
led the crowd to the gates stupidly that means they tried to storm it
and that it's official SWP policy to do these things? I mean all it takes
is a gander at social psychology texts to read up on group psychology in
a setting such as a protest to see how things can go wrong.
They were trying to be heard, this is hardly storming the Bastille.
It's very easy to manipulate crowds in that setting, it's just an
unfortunate fact of human psychology, this does not mean the SWP
are unlwful criminals attempting this as doctrine.

Amhran Nua

And correct me if I'm wrong here, but in that video are those yellow banners the People Before Profit Alliance, itself a SWP front?

The Alliance was established by the SWP and some of its general election candidates in 2007 previously ran as SWP candidates (another, Rory Hearne was an elected President of the University of Dublin (Trinity College Dublin) Students' Union and was a member of the SWP at the time but no longer is). They include Gino Kenny, Brid Smith and Richard Boyd Barrett.

southsiderosie

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Can you show how SWP and SF students showing up to a student protest is in any way hijacking the protest or using it to promote their own agenda? Or is it simply the fact that they came representing their own political groups instead of the USI that you have an issue with? Are SF and SWP students not allowed to show their support for their fellow students?

It was a non-partisan march, so nobody should have had party flags out.

It was meant to be a march that ended in a rally. If people disagreed with that, fine, but do your sit-in another day.

If you truly care about the message - no fee increases - then why do things that distract from it?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Yes, don't you see this happening with Orange marchers, with Fred Phelps
going to funerals of soldiers with hate-filled propaganda? Neo-Nazi's and
KKK marches, all of this is the meaning of freedom of speech ffs,
if you're not going to defend freedom of speech for those you most
critically disagree with then you don't deal in freedom of speech.

I'm not arguing against freedom of speech, and the OO is a perfect example of that. A peaceful protest against the OO marche in the Ardoyne was overrun by radicals and outsiders. Why not let the people of that neighborhood protest in the way that they wanted to protest? Not everyone wants to throw bottles and rocks at the police. All that did was hurt the cause of Republicans, and cause loads of damage in their own community.

Amhran Nua

What I'd like to know is how that small woman with the glasses and the big camera standing about two feet to the left of the guards managed to escape a savage beating at the bloodstained hands of the brutal puppets of the bourgeoisie.

Is it getting warm in here, lads.

muffy

southsiderosie wrote: »

I will repeat my question to those who think it is fine to use an organized protest to promote their own agenda:

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a 1916 celebration waving a Cuban flag and distributing material about the "Glorious uprising in the Sierra Maestra"?

Does "free speech" justify my showing up at a hunger striker commemoration demonstration with a big picture of Aminatou Haidar?

Do you think Sinn Fein or eirigi would have a right to be mad? Because it's all about free speech. Right?

I think they'd be ok with it, solidarity with fellow oppressed peoples and that! I have made the point that SWP had absolutely every right to be there, their student representatives where there, and this is exactly the type of issue such an organisation takes a strong stand against. Sinn Fein had a right to be there too, they are a political party, whether or not you or I agree with there politics is removed from this.

*EDIT: regarding it being non-partisan, it is a political issue, Labour Youth were also represented. Didn't see to many young Fianna Fail-ers or Fine Gael-ers though...

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

It was a non-partisan march, so nobody should have had party flags out.

It was meant to be a march that ended in a rally. If people disagreed with that, fine, but do your sit-in another day.

If you truly care about the message - no fee increases - then why do things that distract from it?

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying but I still respect
these people's right to do whatever they want at these protests and I
don't begrudge them for it. You seem to think a matter like this is
important enough to detract from the main point of the protest, I don't.
If a trivial matter like this annoys you that much I honestly feel sorry
for you and honestly it's a perfectly legal thing to do so begrudge all you
like, I care about more important things than what people choose to
display in an area where there are a lot of people present.

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying but I still respect
these people's right to do whatever they want at these protests and I
don't begrudge them for it. You seem to think a matter like this is
important enough to detract from the main point of the protest, I don't.
If a trivial matter like this annoys you that much I honestly feel sorry
for you and honestly it's a perfectly legal thing to do so begrudge all you
like, I care about more important things than what people choose to
display in an area where there are a lot of people present.

Have you ever actually organized a mass protest?

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

Have you ever actually organized a mass protest?

Why?

Di0genes

PanchoVilla wrote: »

You quote seven comments from boards users, I've linked a press release from Free Education for Everyone (FEE) claiming responsibility for the sit-in at the DoF. You're calling for the SWP to be proscribed based on false information and assumptions that they were responsible for the events that took place.

Once again, I'm asking you to retract your claim that the SWP were responsible for the actions taken at the DoF. You have no evidence to support that accusation, whereas I have clear evidence to the contrary.

Could you point out the members of FEE, who organised this sit in. looking at their website, there are no contact details for individual members.

Again like the IAWA and PBP, and GR were all SWP fronts the SWP are canny enough to create fronts that appeal to the mass public.

You really are terribly naive.

sponsoredwalk

The guards are hitting people kneeling down on the ground in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-REt8kCjCRo

There was no act of violence carried out by those protesting at the Department,
and any violence outside was instigated by the inept response of the Gardai.
Students sitting on the road in protest were baton charged repeatedly by Gardaí,
with many suffering injuries. One female student was knocked unconscious during
the assault on the crowd, and other students clearly displayed head injuries.
“The Gardaí rushed the crowd on numerous occasions, including spectators on
the street. The crowd, which at this point had swelled up to 2,000 students with
many from the main demonstration joining us, vented their anger at the response
of the Gardaí who had begun encircling them” said Lorcan Myles, a Free Education
for Everyone activist who witnessed the events. We make no apologies for the
direct action taken.
http://free-education.info/press-release-a-statement-regarding-events-today-at-the-dept-of-finance/

Adriatic

Those image links flying around this thread on page 4 are mine.

Most students got caught up in the act and decided to stay and see what the commotion was about, the way back to Stephen's Green to get out of the place from the place of the march was down this street and yes some students did get caught in the moment; I didn't even know what the building was nor did any of the students I asked, of course I do now.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

The guards are hitting people kneeling down on the ground in this video:

Indeed. Did that happen before or after this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgEEgrQCGts

Warning: video contains some disturbing scenes of violence, mostly scared looking guards with their backs to a wall flinching under a rain of missiles.

From the looks of things and the angle, the baton charges on seated protestors happened afterwards, you can see a semicircle being formed. Again, I could be mistaken.

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Why?

Have you? Yes or no?

20Cent

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Indeed. Did that happen before or after this one?


Warning: video contains some disturbing scenes of violence, mostly scared looking guards with their backs to a wall flinching under a rain of missiles.

From the looks of things and the angle, the baton charges on seated protestors happened afterwards, you can see a semicircle being formed. Again, I could be mistaken.

You are clutching straws at this stage dude.

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

Have you? Yes or no?

I asked why, I'm very suspicious that there is some ulterior motive
behind this seemingly honest question and your response does nothing
to dissuade me of this feeling, in fact it only adds to my suspicions.

sponsoredwalk

20Cent wrote: »

You are clutching straws at this stage dude.

I was trying to find the words

I mean, how do you respond to that? Oh, because some people in the crowd
threw things it does justify police brutality on people sitting down on the
ground, yes it does.

Can't wait for Amhram Nua to have a say in how the police act in the future

Can anyone imagine a thread on how the police acted that day? I mean
nobody totally blames them for acting at times but nobody justifies them
at other times, here we see a political grammar game being played where
when you say one thing we reach to the extreme, I mean fishing or what...

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I asked why, I'm very suspicious that there is some ulterior motive
behind this seemingly honest question and your response does nothing
to dissuade me of this feeling, in fact it only adds to my suspicions.

I'm guessing no. Because if you had, then you would not call people crashing a march with an alternative agenda for the day (sit-downs) or handing out other materials "trivial".

southsiderosie

muffy wrote: »

I think they'd be ok with it, solidarity with fellow oppressed peoples and that! I have made the point that SWP had absolutely every right to be there, their student representatives where there, and this is exactly the type of issue such an organisation takes a strong stand against. Sinn Fein had a right to be there too, they are a political party, whether or not you or I agree with there politics is removed from this.

*EDIT: regarding it being non-partisan, it is a political issue, Labour Youth were also represented. Didn't see to many young Fianna Fail-ers or Fine Gael-ers though...

Yes Sinn Fein is big on solidarity with other groups, Basques and Catalans in particular, but if you think that they or other Republican groups would take kindly to an agenda hijacking during one of their events, there's a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you.

Amhran Nua

20Cent wrote: »

You are clutching straws at this stage dude.

Really? I thought the straws were being clutched at by people defending a group with a demonstrable track record of trying to agitate crowds to violent acts and setting up more publicly appealing front organisations. That video of the attack on the seat of Irish democracy speaks volumes, where you have both the SWP and one of their "publicly appealing" fronts wading into a small group of guards, not to mention the text message on my phone inviting me to a meeting to "radicalise the unions". You do know what radicalise means?

Also, as Adriatic mentions, most people didn't even know what the building was, so its a bit odd that violence flared up around it in particular.

Its a messy, ugly situation on all sides, and there are questions about it that will probably go unanswered forever. However it is clear to me that generally speaking, most people are fed up with these circus antics.

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

I'm guessing no. Because if you had, then you would not call people crashing a march with an alternative agenda for the day (sit-downs) or handing out other materials "trivial".

Okay, thanks for letting me know.