Is it time to make the SWP and company proscribed organisations?

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Oh, because some people in the crowd
threw things it does justify police brutality on people sitting down on the
ground, yes it does.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was justified in any way, it was not. I would like clarification on the sequence of events however.

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Okay, thanks for letting me know.

So that's a no then.

Between liability issues, police permitting, potential for defamation, attempts to get the word out, attempts to get the media to cover it (favorably), and of course get bodies in the street, planning a protest is a lot of work. And when small bands of people want to impose THEIR style of protest onto something that they are neither the public face of nor the private liability for ITS A BIG FCUKING PROBLEM.

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

Between liability issues, police permitting, potential for defamation, attempts to get the word out, attempts to get the media to cover it (favorably), and of course get bodies in the street, planning a protest is a lot of work. And when small bands of people want to impose THEIR style of protest onto something that they are neither the public face of nor the private liability for ITS A BIG FCUKING PROBLEM.

I'd love to see how liability issues, police permitting and potential for
defamation factor into people bringing flags for Palestine to a march.
Seriously, how long until you lock men up for wearing pink or some other
public display that irks you? (Pink can be substituted with your least favourite colour).

Oh, and it's only a big fcuking problem to those who want to make it
a big fcuking problem, like you, I don't give a **** because that
teeny tiny thing called democracy permits them to do what they want,
you obviously hate the idea.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was justified in any way, it was not. I would like clarification on the sequence of events however.

I'm sorry but I am extremely suspicious, I honestly believe you'll sway
the sequence of events to suit your pre-conceived biases that have
been so prevalent here no matter how things turn out, emphasizing
with great voracity that which confirms your viewpoint and neglecting
that which does not. After all of the posts in this thread, all the
early judgements and blatant misrepresentations I've just got to say
I'm sorry you're doing this and when once I actually mentally bookmarked
research into Amhram Nua from reading your posts in another thread
because I was impressed here I've got to say I've lost the impetus.

20Cent

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Really? I thought the straws were being clutched at by people defending a group with a demonstrable track record of trying to agitate crowds to violent acts and setting up more publicly appealing front organisations. That video of the attack on the seat of Irish democracy speaks volumes, where you have both the SWP and one of their "publicly appealing" fronts wading into a small group of guards, not to mention the text message on my phone inviting me to a meeting to "radicalise the unions". You do know what radicalise means?

Also, as Adriatic mentions, most people didn't even know what the building was, so its a bit odd that violence flared up around it in particular.

Its a messy, ugly situation on all sides, and there are questions about it that will probably go unanswered forever. However it is clear to me that generally speaking, most people are fed up with these circus antics.

Yes really.
You started the thread wanting to ban the SWP for some reason. When it was shown to you that they did not organise the sit in it became something else. Now you are posting videos trying to make the violence their fault again. Grasping at straws.

Most people are fed up.
But its not with this tiny minority and their scuffles.
Its this gov that has driven this country into the ground.
Everything they touch turns to crap.
Every prediction turns out to be wrong.
Every decision is made for Banks and bondholders not the citizens.
They have to be brought to court to run by elections.
Now even the bond markets don't believe them.
They are in the way, part of the problem.

Focus all you like on a few minor scuffles and ignore the big picture.
SWP aren't the problem at the moment.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'm sorry but I am extremely suspicious, I honestly believe you'll sway
the sequence of events to suit your pre-conceived biases that have
been so prevalent here no matter how things turn out, emphasizing
with great voracity that which confirms your viewpoint and neglecting
that which does not.

Well, you can believe what you like. Unlike other organisations, we do not have a track record of duplicity. More like an unflinching adherence to the reality of events, regardless of the popularity or lack thereof of said adherence.

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'd love to see how liability issues, police permitting and potential for
defamation factor into people bringing flags for Palestine to a march.
Seriously, how long until you lock men up for wearing pink or some other
public display that irks you? (Pink can be substituted with your least favourite colour).

You can exaggerate what I've posted all you want to, but the bottom line is, if you come out to (ostensibly) support a protest, you should follow the norms and agenda set by the organizers. Not only is it the decent thing to do, but it is the way to build political alliances. And failure to do so in some cases can discredit the organizers, and make it harder for them to get permits in the future. Thank goodness that there were lots of visible SWP and eirigi flags around where scuffles broke out, because they are getting the blame for the chaos instead of the actual organizers. If the troublemakers hadn't been so obvious about their political affiliations, the students union would be in hot(ter) water.

But since the public reputation of the SWP/eirigi crowd is already shot to hell, I guess they have nothing to lose. Too bad they are so cavalier about pissing in other people's kool-aid.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Oh, and it's only a big fcuking problem to those who want to make it
a big fcuking problem, like you, I don't give a **** because that
teeny tiny thing called democracy permits them to do what they want,
you obviously hate the idea.

Yes I hate democracy because I think that people who cause chaos at peaceful orderly protest are muppets. Right.

Amhran Nua

20Cent wrote: »

You started the thread wanting to ban the SWP for some reason. When it was shown to you that they did not organise the sit in it became something else. Now you are posting videos trying to make the violence their fault again. Grasping at straws.

Try again. The thread was started to illuminate the problems with these groups, and at every point questions were raised to raised to get a few ideas. It has not been shown that they bear no responsibility for the violence. It has been shown that they have a track record of organised non-peaceful attacks against state institutions.

Or were all those SWP/PBPA flags stolen by miscreants before piling into the few guards at the gates of the Dáil?

20Cent wrote: »

SWP aren't the problem at the moment.

They are a big damn problem if they're getting in the way of people who are actually trying to fix the problems.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

we do not have a track record of duplicity. More like an unflinching adherence to the reality of events,

Except for the realistic claim that the SWP called for an escalation of attacks on the Dail

20Cent

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Try again. The thread was started to illuminate the problems with these groups, and at every point questions was raised to raised to get a few ideas. It has not been shown that they bear no responsibility for the violence. It has been shown that they have a track record of organised non-peaceful attacks against state institutions.

Or were all those SWP/PBPA flags stolen by miscreants before piling into the few guards at the gates of the Dáil?

They are a big damn problem if they're getting in the way of people who are actually trying to fix the problems.

Who gives a crap about Eirigi or SWP? I certainly don't. They get power from people like you jacking up minor scuffles into major incidents. Sitting in the Dept of Finance is legitimate imo, so is sitting in the street. If someone throws something arrest them but battoning people lying on the ground is not on.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It has been shown that they have a track record of organised non-peaceful attacks against state institutions.

Where has it been shown? And if so, why aren't they in jail? I think we're seeing more of that
characteristic logic.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Except for the realistic claim that the SWP called for an escalation of attacks on the Dail

So all those SWP flags followed by a call to "escalate the action" make no never mind to you? Amazing.

20Cent wrote: »

Who gives a crap about Eirigi or SWP? I certainly don't. They get power from people like you jacking up minor scuffles into major incidents.

No, they get power from convincing naive young people that they can be part of some drive towards equality, complete with flowery volumes of rubbish to back it up. Tell me, are they still charging that tithe of all income to finance the party? My sources may be a bit behind.

20Cent wrote: »

If someone throws something arrest them but battoning people lying on the ground is not on.

Agreed.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I think we're seeing more of that
characteristic logic.

I think you may be right.

sponsoredwalk

20Cent wrote: »

If someone throws something arrest them but battoning people lying on the ground is not on.

Unfortunately it is on because it happens all the time. This gets by the
radar in this thread while the SWP are bearing the brunt of all the
accusations. Now, we're waiting for proof it's SWP policy to storm
building's Bastille-like and then repeat this pattern weekly. According to
history this is not what happened and the incriminating evidence
against the SWP is the prevalence of their flags at a march they helped
organise that was led up to the gates. Obviously this incriminates the
SWP :rolleyes: Oh, and lets not forget the incriminating evidence
contained within their statement on the event that explicitly said
it was their plan to escalate attacks on the dail :rolleyes:
Need we mention the quotes in the OP further incriminating them,
that would stand in an Amhran Nua court of law I'm sure

20Cent

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So all those SWP flags followed by a call to "escalate the action" make no never mind to you? Amazing.


No, they get power from convincing naive young people that they can be part of some drive towards equality, complete with flowery volumes of rubbish to back it up. Tell me, are they still charging that tithe of all income to finance the party? My sources may be a bit behind.


Agreed.

No they don't pay me "no never mind". With the problems in this country now they are way way down my list of things to be concerned about. The McCarthyesque fear of this tiny group is strange though.

Don't know about tithes don't care either.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Now, we're waiting for proof it's SWP policy to storm
building's Bastille-like

Here's a better idea, show us a statement from any of these groups condemning the attack on the seat of Irish democracy. The pro-cuckoo party (so named not just for its policies but for its unfortunate natal habits) crowd in this thread are big on the strawmen, not so big on answering direct and uncomfortable questions.

Amhran Nua

20Cent wrote: »

With the problems in this country now they are way way down my list of things to be concerned about. The McCarthyesque fear of this tiny group is strange though.

So you don't see any problems with a variety of minority groups doing their level best to cause trouble for larger groups that want to peacefully resolve the issues facing the country today, for their own benefit? The concern is the way that change starts with small groups, because the government which caused the problems is a really big group, so a really big group isn't going to want to rock the boat, only all the small groups are being pushed out of existence by the far left cuckoos.

20Cent wrote: »

Don't know about tithes don't care either.

Maybe you should.

20Cent

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Here's a better idea, show us a statement from any of these groups condemning the attack on the seat of Irish democracy. The pro-cuckoo party (so named not just for its policies but for its unfortunate natal habits) crowd in this thread are big on the strawmen, not so big on answering direct and uncomfortable questions.

A scuffle at the Dail gates is "an attack on the seat of Irish Democracy"!!!!

20Cent

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So you don't see any problems with a variety of minority groups doing their level best to cause trouble for larger groups that want to peacefully resolve the issues facing the country today, for their own benefit? The concern is the way that change starts with small groups, because the government which caused the problems is a really big group, so a really big group isn't going to want to rock the boat, only all the small groups are being pushed out of existence by the far left cuckoos.


Maybe you should.

Depends if you choose to ignore the larger group and focus on the small trouble makers. I choose not to.

Who gives a crap if people give money to SWP?
I certainly don't.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Here's a better idea, show us a statement from any of these groups condemning the attack on the seat of Irish democracy. The pro-cuckoo party (so named not just for its policies but for its unfortunate natal habits) crowd in this thread are big on the strawmen, not so big on answering direct and uncomfortable questions.

First off it's hardly the seat of Irish democracy if they don't even
listen to the cries of their people, so don't think that political rhetoric is
really going to fly here. The seat of democracy only even exists when
the majority of a population get the chance to sit in it, and currently
that option is not available. Protests like these are what gives meaning
to the idea of a seat of democracy.

Second, I reiterate my claim about a science course being badly needed,
I mean your claim is akin to a person who believes in ghosts claiming
"give me evidence they don't exist, huh???". Outrageous, I mean the
evidence you cite as evidence completely destroys your case, the
very document you originally cited as your evidence, when inspected
for 5 seconds, actually shows they said nothing of what you claimed.
This political-rhetoric technique of yours has backfired and now you're
trying to put the ball in my court, well I didn't begin with outrageous
claims stating X, I've shown your claims to be misleading. I believe
the onus is on you to not only explain why you originally misled
us but continue to avoid acknowledging this. Then maybe we can
move on and ask what logic motivated you to make me prove your
claims wrong that lack any substance to begin with...

Amhran Nua

20Cent wrote: »

A scuffle at the Dail gates is "an attack on the seat of Irish Democracy"!!!!

That's literally correct. They may have been half baked chancers but nonetheless.

20Cent wrote: »

Depends if you choose to ignore the larger group and focus on the small trouble makers. I choose not to.

Neither do I, a thread on boards can hardly be described as a focus; however it is a real problem, as echoed by many posters in this and other threads. We probably have more in common than othewise, the difference may be a recognition of the difficulties involved in starting a group to promote real change, something I have invested a great deal of my own time and effort into.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

First off it's hardly the seat of Irish democracy if they don't even listen to the cries of their people

So what, you'd be happier with people in charge who think its par for the course to force their way into the seat of democracy in a country? Here's the news, and the news is that governments change. Those who'd rather ignore the voice of the people think they can just bypass that whole bothersome election business and take over by main force or deceit. That's not acceptable, and never will be.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

the
very document you originally cited as your evidence, when inspected
for 5 seconds, actually shows they said nothing of what you claimed.
This political-rhetoric technique of yours has backfired and now you're
trying to put the ball in my court, well I didn't begin with outrageous
claims stating X, I've shown your claims to be misleading. I believe
the onus is on you to not only explain why you originally misled
us but continue to avoid acknowledging this. Then maybe we can
move on and ask what logic motivated you to make me prove your
claims that lack any substance...

Ye gods, this is a waste of time.

Wolfe Tone

So Amhran nua, do you think groups like SF, eirigi and the SWP should be banned?


Or is this a "get the digs in" thread?

As an aside, what is your role in the group you advertise?

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So what,

I say, "it's hardly the seat of Irish democracy if they don't even listen to
the cries of their people" and you say, "so what" :eek:

Is this the official position of Amhran Nua on democracy or something?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

you'd be happier with people in charge who think its par for the course to force their way into the seat of democracy in a country?

How do you know that? Did I say that? I've said nothing of the kind
nor would I.

sponsoredwalk

This thread is futile, it began with a lot of hot air about the SWP and
basically there is still no substance 3 pages later (40 posts a page!).
It's been fun seeing this unfold and watching the entrapment game
play out but I've got better things to do.

I'll just add, my thread about the SWP relaying an official condemnation
was merely to dissuade the opinions of those like the OP but obviously
it's stupid because it's a neverending quest of condemnation, you either
agree or disagree but no logic is going to have a say in this discussion
once the mind is made up.

southsiderosie

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Ye gods, this is a waste of time.

Yes.

Just get yerself some big flags and angry Puerto Ricans for your next rally, and you'll be grand.

Amhran Nua

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So Amhran nua, do you think groups like SF, eirigi and the SWP should be banned?

No, the contributions from several members have answered many of the questions raised. Without a doubt I and many others recognise the damage they are doing, however.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Or is this a "get the digs in" thread?

That depends on whether or not you think getting a dig in is the same thing as speaking out against a problem. I guess its a matter of perspective.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

As an aside, what is your role in the group you advertise?

I would be one of the original members. May I ask your own political affiliation, if you don't want to respond that's fine.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I say, "it's hardly the seat of Irish democracy if they don't even listen to
the cries of their people" and you say, "so what" :eek:

I thought this would have been apparent, but it's so, (comma) what. Nice purple font though.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'll just add, my thread about the SWP relaying an official condemnation
was merely to dissuade the opinions of those like the OP

Great, and here was me giving you credit for initiative and building bridges. This is frankly incredible.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I thought this would have been apparent, but it's so, (comma) what. .

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nice purple font though.

Thanks, I always love it in a thread when we resort to focusing on my
font colours, or the size of my posts, or the grammar I use, I have finally
learned to recignise this point in an internet discussion for what it is.
Toodles...

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Thanks, I always love it in a thread when we resort to focusing on my
font colours, or the size of my posts, or the grammar I use, I have finally
learned to recignise this point in an internet discussion for what it is.
Toodles...

What its a nice purple font. I mean, what, (comma) its a nice purple font. I won't be adopting it anytime soon but it makes for a break from the everyday black.