I can't get insured, what are my rights?

WishfulDan

Hi all, first post. Obviously as a user of the internet in Ireland I have (a good few times) come across this site with its useful answers so I thought, where better to ask?

Basically, I've bought a Ford Transit with which I plan to peddle my intellectual wares across Europe. Two months in each country. Starting in England, then France, then Germany -and beyond.

I have rung EVERY insurance company in the country and no one will give cover over 90 days abroad.

I'm 25, no convictions, assaults, written records of bribing Donegal Gardai, penalty points or bad eyesight. I'm registered as a company director of a limited company. Employed.

What I don't understand is how the European ethos of being able to travel and work between member states exists when... what, they want me to walk?

"One Currency, only to be made and spent as a foot passenger".

I really do feel that something's not right here. What the insurance companies are suggesting is that once I'm past England, I get the car registered in France, NCT'd, Taxed and insured, and then do 90 days outside France, before getting it MOT'd, Taxed and insured in another member state to keep going!?!?!?

I'm totally distraught. €2000 on a beautiful '01 with enough space for all the soap, writings, books, and other mental propaganda I could ever sell or GIVE away, and it's stuck, with me, in the arse end of Donegal.

My Da's Gun or an old rope?

L1011

Quinn give 182 days continous cover, or at least used to. My last policy booklet (August 09 policy) has that in it.

challengemaster

Think it was posted on here before but the 90 days only applies to Comp/TPFT but third party still applies for a much longer period, allowing you to drive..

mayo_man

ok the thing is i used to work for a reputable insurance company some time ago as in the last 4 years and best of my knowledge we were told that if you are having a hard job trying to get urself insured which is by the law that you are... what you do is get three letters of refusal from companies you have contacted already and by law the fourth company has to take you on cant remember the ins and outs of it now but look into it hope that can help you out.

chris85

mayo_man wrote: »

ok the thing is i used to work for a reputable insurance company some time ago as in the last 4 years and best of my knowledge we were told that if you are having a hard job trying to get urself insured which is by the law that you are... what you do is get three letters of refusal from companies you have contacted already and by law the fourth company has to take you on cant remember the ins and outs of it now but look into it hope that can help you out.

Read the post he hasnt got refused insurance, its the conditions that dont suit.

kazul

So you're a bit of a looney who wants to travel europe in a commercial vehicle? Why not become a HGV driver and get paid for doing your hobby?

bazz26

mayo_man wrote: »

ok the thing is i used to work for a reputable insurance company some time ago as in the last 4 years and best of my knowledge we were told that if you are having a hard job trying to get urself insured which is by the law that you are... what you do is get three letters of refusal from companies you have contacted already and by law the fourth company has to take you on cant remember the ins and outs of it now but look into it hope that can help you out.

My understanding is that he is not being refused insurance, they are happy to insure him on the vehicle for unlimited use in Ireland but the problem is that he wishes to travel with the vehicle outside the country for longer than the insurance companies are willing to cover him under their standard policy.

Alkers

Could you come back after 90 days, set foot on Irish soil then leave again?

oldyouth

Irish Insurance Companies are only obliged to offer insurance for use in Ireland. The temporary extensions to drive abroad are a courtesy. I don't see a solution other than to effect a new policy in each jurisdiction.

The reason behind this is the difficulty and cost of investigating, defending and settling a claim overseas

WishfulDan

Simona1986 wrote: »

Could you come back after 90 days, set foot on Irish soil then leave again?

No, It's for 90 days abroad in total during the policy year. I could of course spend 90 days abroad, and not having an accident, come back and go away again, and never mention the first 90 days should I have an accident. But then I don't know how it would work if I'd been stopped by the police during my initial 90 days and they'd noticed this.

I do now know that each Member State is obliged to allow you to drive around for at least 6 months (Germany allows 1 year) in a foreign registered vehicle as long as you don't register as a resident of that country (In which case you would have to import your car). But this is scuppered by the fact that even if I wanted to stay for that time, my insurance would never cover me!

Max Power1

oldyouth wrote: »

Irish Insurance Companies are only obliged to offer insurance for use in Ireland. The temporary extensions to drive abroad are a courtesy. I don't see a solution other than to effect a new policy in each jurisdiction.

The reason behind this is the difficulty and cost of investigating, defending and settling a claim overseas

Legally any insurance offered in an EU state must provide valid cover (TP) for an unlimited period of time in any other member state.

I cant find the link to the relevant legislation atm but it was posted here not too long back.

WishfulDan

It took me a while but I dug up this

http://www.nbi.ch/pdf/MID_Codified_Directive.pdf

bottom right corner of page three, and top left corner of page 4 would seem to say that what the insurance companies are doing is breaching EU directive...

But what does this mean? So what? How can I do anything about that and how do I get insured? Do I report every single insurance company I rang that wouldn't insure me, and who too? How many years would I have to wait until they change their behaviour?

:eek:

Turbulent Bill

WishfulDan wrote: »

No, It's for 90 days abroad in total during the policy year.

I wonder if this applies pro-rata or is absolute, i.e., if you were insured for 3 months on a single policy would you get only 22.5 days or the full allowance.

I'd look for commercial insurance - most European haulage trucks must spend at least a third of their lives outside the home country.

limklad

WishfulDan wrote: »

It took me a while but I dug up this

http://www.nbi.ch/pdf/MID_Codified_Directive.pdf

bottom right corner of page three, and top left corner of page 4 would seem to say that what the insurance companies are doing is breaching EU directive...

But what does this mean? So what? How can I do anything about that and how do I get insured? Do I report every single insurance company I rang that wouldn't insure me, and who too? How many years would I have to wait until they change their behaviour?

:eek:

This is a late 2009 directive so it might not be applied into Irish Law yet. Our Government have been know to be slow in applying EU Directives into Irish Law. Only EU Regulations is applied immediately across the EU. EU Directives must be passed individually in each parliament in to National Law. If it not part of Irish law then the Insurance companies operating here are not in breach.

I did a quick search and I do not see it in any SI's so my guess it not applied here.

limklad

oldyouth wrote: »

Irish Insurance Companies are only obliged to offer insurance for use in Ireland. The temporary extensions to drive abroad are a courtesy. I don't see a solution other than to effect a new policy in each jurisdiction.

The reason behind this is the difficulty and cost of investigating, defending and settling a claim overseas

If the difficulty and cost of investigating, defending and settling a claim overseas settlement, then why bother cover in other EU or other Territories for any time period.

You are most at risk to be in a accident when you are not familiar with local motorist behaviour, road signs, Driving on the right, especially with a right hand drive while on the right hand vehicles amongst other things..

oldyouth

Max Power1 wrote: »

Legally any insurance offered in an EU state must provide valid cover (TP) for an unlimited period of time in any other member state.

That's my point. That is why no insurer is offering insurance because they don't want the overseas aspect that one of their policies provides for. It is a reluctant extension they are obliged to include for existing clients

bonzodog2

So just get a commercial policy, and tell them after a while that you're spending most of the time elsewhere, as long as you don't mind TPO cover. What can they do ? Come back every 3 months or so if necessary (not necessarily with the vehicle ......), to tax it etc. If its taxed etc here and uptodate AFAIK its legal throughout EU.

CiniO

WishfulDan wrote: »

Hi all, first post. Obviously as a user of the internet in Ireland I have (a good few times) come across this site with its useful answers so I thought, where better to ask?

Basically, I've bought a Ford Transit with which I plan to peddle my intellectual wares across Europe. Two months in each country. Starting in England, then France, then Germany -and beyond.

I have rung EVERY insurance company in the country and no one will give cover over 90 days abroad.

I'm 25, no convictions, assaults, written records of bribing Donegal Gardai, penalty points or bad eyesight. I'm registered as a company director of a limited company. Employed.

What I don't understand is how the European ethos of being able to travel and work between member states exists when... what, they want me to walk?

"One Currency, only to be made and spent as a foot passenger".

I really do feel that something's not right here. What the insurance companies are suggesting is that once I'm past England, I get the car registered in France, NCT'd, Taxed and insured, and then do 90 days outside France, before getting it MOT'd, Taxed and insured in another member state to keep going!?!?!?

I'm totally distraught. €2000 on a beautiful '01 with enough space for all the soap, writings, books, and other mental propaganda I could ever sell or GIVE away, and it's stuck, with me, in the arse end of Donegal.

My Da's Gun or an old rope?

OP you were misinformed.
All insurance companies in Ireland, who provide car insurance, are obliged to offer unlimited legally required cover for every EU country.
Lot's of consultants or even brokers seem to don't know about it, but it's clearly stated in every car insurance policy. Just take any of them and see.
Example from allianz:

Cover and Territorial limits
We will subject to the terms, conditions and exceptions and endorsements of this policy provide
insurance for death, injury, loss or damage as expressed in the policy, schedule or certificate of
motor insurance happening during the period of insurance anywhere in the Republic of Ireland,
Northern Ireland, Great Britain, The Isle of Man, The Channel Islands or on the Continent of
Europe. The insurance also operates during the course of sea transit (including loading and
unloading) between ports within the territories named.

We will also provide the minimum legal insurance required to comply with the laws relating to
the compulsory insurance of motor vehicles in any other country in respect of which the
Commission of the European Union is satisfied that arrangements have been made to meet the
requirements of Article 7 (2) of the EC Directive on insurance of civil liabilities arising from the
use of motor vehicles (No.72/166/CEE).

Hence that first part applies to everything in the policy - all kind of cover. It's also subject to terms, conditions and exceptions and endorsements. And obvioulsy in this terms and conditions your maximum period abroad is specified (usually 90 days).
But the second part is not subject to any terms, conditions and exceptions and endorsements. In all EU countries you need third party cover (at least) so that's what they are providing. And it can't be limited to any time period.

So in other words - you buy policy which gives your third party, fire, theft, and own car damage (comprehensive policy), which is limited to 90 days abroad. If you go abroad and stay longer, then fire, theft, own car damage is void, but your third party cover is still valid, which also makes you road legal.

This pretty much solves your problem, as for 2000euros worth transit, comprehensive cover doesn't make too much sense.


Also what you said before, that they require you to buy insurance in every country - nothing like that. It's pretty much impossible.
There is barely any insurance companies on the continent, that will give cover to non resident. Even more they would not insure a car registered outside their country. You also can't register your can in any of the countries you are travelling, because you are not resident there.
You are only going for holiday, and planning to spend 2 months in each country. In this case, you are still resident in Ireland, and that's the only country you can buy insurance to travel across EU.
Sad that there's no companies that offer full cover, but luckily according to EU regulations which was already applied to Irish law, that have to provide unlimited third party cover.

Just buy third party policy and go where you want and for as long as you want.

Here's my thread about it from few weeks ago.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056070857

oldyouth wrote: »

Irish Insurance Companies are only obliged to offer insurance for use in Ireland. The temporary extensions to drive abroad are a courtesy. I don't see a solution other than to effect a new policy in each jurisdiction.

The reason behind this is the difficulty and cost of investigating, defending and settling a claim overseas

limklad wrote: »

This is a late 2009 directive so it might not be applied into Irish Law yet. Our Government have been know to be slow in applying EU Directives into Irish Law. Only EU Regulations is applied immediately across the EU. EU Directives must be passed individually in each parliament in to National Law. If it not part of Irish law then the Insurance companies operating here are not in breach.

I did a quick search and I do not see it in any SI's so my guess it not applied here.

Limklad and Oldyouth. You are both wrong.
There is the law which requires insurance companies to provide unlimited third party cover within EU.

Here is my post I wrote some time ago about it (hence it's different then the one earlier quoted).
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056035650

oldyouth

CiniO wrote: »

Limklad and Oldyouth. You are both wrong.
There is the law which requires insurance companies to provide unlimited third party cover within EU.

You're not listening to the point being made. If you have a policy, Insurers are obliged to provide the EU cover. The OP can't get a quote because insurers do not want to be bound by that directive if they put a policy in place for him. I get your arguement, I just don't know why you made it in this thread.

zulfikarMD

Have you tried this? - http://www.geico.com/getaquote/overseas/

Worth calling them! Good luck!

CiniO

oldyouth wrote: »

You're not listening to the point being made. If you have a policy, Insurers are obliged to provide the EU cover. The OP can't get a quote because insurers do not want to be bound by that directive if they put a policy in place for him. I get your arguement, I just don't know why you made it in this thread.

What you've written doesn't make sense.
You said, that if he has a policy it's valid in the EU, but when he wants to get a quote, they refuse to give policy, because he's tell them he's driving abroad for longer then 3 months.

That can't be true. He didn't specify cit learly, but what I guess it looked like,
they were happy to give him a policy, but just informed him, that policy will be valid only 3 months abroad.
Which in fact is not true, as we already came up to here above.

Zubeneschamali

oldyouth wrote: »

The OP can't get a quote

Sure he can.

Chances are the insurance people are misunderstanding the OP's query because every single policy they sell covers what he wants, it's not any sort of extra, so no-one rings them to ask for it.

It's like me ringing up and demanding a special policy that covers Westmeath only, because I'm only going to drive in Westmeath. It confuses the operators and throws them off their script. The fact is that every policy they sell will cover me in Westmeath, and will cover what the OP wants, too.

oldyouth

The OP won't be resident in Ireland for some time to come and Insurers want to avoid having him as a client because, if they do, they will be granting him cover he would be entilted to and they don't want to be in that position. I can't make it any clearer.

You won't (in practice, not theory) make an insurance company sell a policy they don't want to. The exception on compelling an Irish insurer to provide a quote is dependant on use within the State.

CiniO

oldyouth wrote: »

The OP won't be resident in Ireland for some time to come and Insurers want to avoid having him as a client because, if they do, they will be granting him cover he would be entilted to and they don't want to be in that position. I can't make it any clearer.

You won't (in practice, not theory) make an insurance company sell a policy they don't want to. The exception on compelling an Irish insurer to provide a quote is dependant on use within the State.

Wait a minute!
He will be still resident in Ireland.
He's not moving anywhere - he's just going on holidays.
I doesn't matter that his holidays are so long, but unless he aquires residency somewhere else (which he will not) he's still resident in Ireland.

Besides he doesn't have to inform them about his future plans.
At the moment he's obtaining insurance he's still in Ireland.

oldyouth

CiniO wrote: »

Wait a minute!
He will be still resident in Ireland.
He's not moving anywhere - he's just going on holidays.
I doesn't matter that his holidays are so long, but unless he aquires residency somewhere else (which he will not) he's still resident in Ireland.

Besides he doesn't have to inform them about his future plans.
At the moment he's obtaining insurance he's still in Ireland.

There is a difference in residing in Ireland and legal residency.

The OP is declaring his circumstances to insurers and they are not offering quotations, so they deem the information to be material facts. There are obvious ways of getting a policy in place, but I wouldn't do it.

At think at this stage I think the OP has as much assistance as he can get and has to decide on which option to take. I'm outta here

WishfulDan

Wow, CiniO Thank You for your help. I feel a thousand times more confident.

(Thanks Everyone)

I went with Quinn because they offered 93 days at the same price as everyone else's 21 or 30 days cover.

A couple of Insurance Reps mentioned that I wouldn't need a Green Card - I imagine this is only for one reason, because as long as your driving an insured vehicle in another member state -you're covered.

She's sitting outside now, ready to roll.

I'll let everyone know if I run into any bother, in fact I'll probably come crying for help!

Wish me luck.

Toot Toot!

daRobot

Good luck Dan, sounds like a fun adventure!