CP agreement

MagicSean

Since the CP agreement I feel our unions and representative bodies have been very silent. We are supposed to be introducing massive reform as part of the deal. With the news that 6 billion is to be cut in the next budget should our representatives not be introducing savings packages to further secure our salaries in a pre-emptive offer which would most likely have the added effect of increasing our standing in the publics eye as well? Without going into specifics do members of the emergency services feel enough has been done to justify this deal or are we fooling ourselves into thinking our salaries are safe?

Delancey

My personal opinion is that the Croke Park Agreement cannot and will not survive . Whether the decision to bin it comes from the Irish Government or the IMF is, I suppose, immaterial.
The agreement is based on assumptions that no longer hold water - the cost of governement borrowing has become so prohibitive as to force Ireland off the international bond markets , the level of adjustment has risen from 7.5 Billion while the agreement was being negotiated , to 15 billion. The government said the agreement presumed no major shocks - well the 2 items above are pretty major.

It is interesting that according to official figures not 1 single public servant has been re-deployed under the agreement - one wonders if this is deliberate ' foot dragging ' to torpedo the agreement and pave the way for it's abolition ? OK , I know I really should take that to the Conspiracies forum

goldie fish

The fear is that as soon as any of the items agreed were put through, the government will use the getout clause to pull out of their end of the deal.

MagicSean

goldie fish wrote: »

The fear is that as soon as any of the items agreed were put through, the government will use the getout clause to pull out of their end of the deal.

Does that really matter anymore? The government doesn't have much f a life left and the IMF are on the doorstep. If they get into the running of the country we're completely screwed. I'd be prepared to make some sacrifices in this budget then lose colleagues and salary in the next. I'm not even talkin about big sacrifices. A reduction in something like night allowances or reducing the hours they apply to just to show we are willing to do our part.

Paulzx

k_mac wrote: »

. A reduction in something like night allowances.

I'm quite happy with a reduction in my night allowance.................it will be great not working nights anymore.........

MagicSean

Paulzx wrote: »

I'm quite happy with a reduction in my night allowance.................it will be great not working nights anymore.........

When the country is bankrupt that will indeed be the case.

Paulzx

k_mac wrote: »

When the country is bankrupt that will indeed be the case.

It won't be bankrupt when i give up my night allowance. I'm a true patriot

MagicSean

Paulzx wrote: »

It won't be bankrupt when i give up my night allowance. I'm a true patriot

A very poor attitude. Everyone will have to make sacrifices. A reduced night allowance would be a small one but would at least show we are willing to bare some of the burden.

Paulzx

k_mac wrote: »

A very poor attitude. Everyone will have to make sacrifices. A reduced night allowance would be a small one but would at least show we are willing to bare some of the burden.

If its reduced any more there'll be none of it left. I've already shown i'm willing to bear plenty of the burden along with all my colleagues.

Tell you what. You hand back whatever you want. Don't go volunteering everyone elses though. Maybe it will make you sleep better at night.

Me. I sleep just fine as it is

MagicSean

Paulzx wrote: »

If its reduced any more there'll be none of it left. I've already shown i'm willing to bear plenty of the burden along with all my colleagues.

Tell you what. You hand back whatever you want. Don't go volunteering everyone elses though. Maybe it will make you sleep better at night.

Me. I sleep just fine as it is

It's that sense of entitlement that has the whole public service in the firing line.

Paulzx

k_mac wrote: »

It's that sense of entitlement that has the whole public service in the firing line.

The bloody cheek of ya!!! I don't claim to be entitled to anything. I earnevery cent of my wages. Maybe you don't think you do.

Maybe if people had of stuck to earning their wages over the last 10 years instead of thinking that borrowing free money and trying to turn themselves into zillionaires with cash that never existed we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This is starting to sound like the sh%t that goes on over on the Economy forum.

Shield

Lads this sort of discussion really is better suited to the Politics forum as it's discussing the CPA. I'm certainly not liking the direction it's heading in, so if it can't be brought back to a mainly ES-related platform, I'm afraid it'll have to be closed.

Geansai

Given that the Croke park agreement is a two sided deal, with the government agreeing to not let people go or enforce pay cut and the public sector agreeing to improve efficiencies and save money, how do members of the ags believe this should be done?? Any constructive ideas over where savings can be made??

dfbemt

Geansai wrote: »

Given that the Croke park agreement is a two sided deal, with the government agreeing to not let people go or enforce pay cut and the public sector agreeing to improve efficiencies and save money, how do members of the ags believe this should be done?? Any constructive ideas over where savings can be made??

If allowances which were created in an era long gone were done away with what would AGS or Fire think? Rent allowance springs to mind. Simple maths.....

If I take 700 ff's at 70 per week that gives me €49k per week, call it €50. That's, €2.5 million per annum just from the rent allowance in DFB alone, God knows how much in AGS?

Would this 'help' the country ?

NinjaTruncs

goldie fish wrote: »

The fear is that as soon as any of the items agreed were put through, the government will use the getout clause to pull out of their end of the deal.

But nothing from the CP agreement has been implemented, and as soon as something does try to be implemented the Unions are fighting it (bank time). How old is the CP agreement now anyway, 6 months and there is no sign of any savings being made.

MagicSean

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

But nothing from the CP agreement has been implemented, and as soon as something does try to be implemented the Unions are fighting it (bank time). How old is the CP agreement now anyway, 6 months and there is no sign of any savings being made.

This is my point. I'm not suggesting people don't earn their money Paul I'm suggesting we need to start justifying the deal. Personally I'd be willing to accept a reduced rate of night allowance and I'd give up my Saturday allowance as a start. Boot and uniform allowance could also be given up without much problem. The CP agreement was a real lifeline for the public sector but it seems nothing has been provided in return.

Fortunately for the emergency services we tend to be seen in a higher regard than regular public sector workers because of the nature of our work but the tide is changing. Garda allowances seem to be making the headlines most of all. Imo we could set an example and protect ourselves from future salary cuts, which would be much harsher than giving up a few allowances.

Delancey

k_mac wrote: »

This is my point. I'm not suggesting people don't earn their money Paul I'm suggesting we need to start justifying the deal. Personally I'd be willing to accept a reduced rate of night allowance and I'd give up my Saturday allowance as a start. Boot and uniform allowance could also be given up without much problem. The CP agreement was a real lifeline for the public sector but it seems nothing has been provided in return.

Fortunately for the emergency services we tend to be seen in a higher regard than regular public sector workers because of the nature of our work but the tide is changing. Garda allowances seem to be making the headlines most of all. Imo we could set an example and protect ourselves from future salary cuts, which would be much harsher than giving up a few allowances.

+ 1 . If unions are serious about keeping the CPA then they need to show a willingness to make cost savings and reforms. Getting rid of Garda boot and uniform allowances is a good idea ( given that these items are supplied I can't figure out why the allowances exist ) other ES workers might sacrifice some premium payments.
Nobody wants to lose money but at the moment not a cent has been saved by the CPA with the result it's opponents are having a field day - as for the unions resisting the effort to withdraw the bank time that is precisely the sort of reaction that will sink the deal and then all public servants ( ES workers included ) can look forward to further cuts to basic salary.

Tango Alpha 51

Delancey, what premium payments would you like us to give up??.

Paulzx

delancey42 wrote: »

- as for the unions resisting the effort to withdraw the bank time that is precisely the sort of reaction that will sink the deal and then all public servants ( ES workers included ) can look forward to further cuts to basic salary.

It's not "the unions" resisiting the withdrawl of bank time. It's one union that represents a tiny minority of workers. I don't get any bank time.


Cuts to premium payments have already been applied within the previous paycuts. The reason being is they are part of our "basic pay".

As part of my job i am expected to work nights, bank holidays, xmas day etc. This is the normal implication of working a shift roster. Most multinationals that work a shift roster (i.e intel ) pay any of their employees on that roster over 30% shift premium.

My allowances are a shift premium in all but name. As said already if you want me to only get "basic pay" thats no problem i'll work basic pay hours.
No more Xmas day etc. My kids will be delighted

MagicSean

Paulzx wrote: »

It's not "the unions" resisiting the withdrawl of bank time. It's one union that represents a tiny minority of workers. I don't get any bank time.


Cuts to premium payments have already been applied within the previous paycuts. The reason being is they are part of our "basic pay".

As part of my job i am expected to work nights, bank holidays, xmas day etc. This is the normal implication of working a shift roster. Most multinationals that work a shift roster (i.e intel ) pay any of their employees on that roster over 30% shift premium.

My allowances are a shift premium in all but name. As said already if you want me to only get "basic pay" thats no problem i'll work basic pay hours.
No more Xmas day etc. My kids will be delighted

But can you not see that it's cutting off your nose to spite your face? Stick to your guns like that and we will see a massive reduction in both salary and allowances. I also never suggested eleiminating any night allowances or bank holiday allowance. I suggested reducing the hours night allowance applies to. 10pm to 6am maybe. I suggested reducing the rate of allowance which is currently at something like 20%. I also suggested eliminating the Saturday allowance because it isn't a big sacrifice. As to the rostered hours you work. Would you really be ok if you were told you'd be working 9-5 from now on and got no allowances at all?

Delancey

buzzman wrote: »

Delancey, what premium payments would you like us to give up??.

Dunno , is the short answer - when you consider that approx 35% of the H.S.E. salary bill for example is premium payments you can see there is room for cuts somewhere . My point is the same as kmac - to date the CPA seems to have delivered no savings and it will become increasingly difficult to sustain and justify it in these circumstances.
I don't believe that ES workers have seen the last of pay cuts ( or to be precise ' reduced earnings ' ). I would think the sensible thing is to forego some allowances / premium payments and preserve basic salaries given that basic pay is so important in calculating pension benefits.

I'm reminded of a neighbour of mine who's a retired Garda , he curses the GRA for what he sees as allowing a deterioration in basic pay that was masked by allowances , Overtime , etc. He earned a '' good living '' but had to work a lot of OT to achieve that and feels that there was no substitute for a decent basic wage.
Thats why I think allowances / premium pay should be the preferred cut if/when more cuts are made.

Tango Alpha 51

I get 9 euro extra in my pay for working Saturdays, however if you take my sunday/bank holiday allowance off me I'll be down an extra 6,000 euro a year in pay, do you think this is acceptable?? Cos I sure as hell don't. No shift pay means no shift work simple as that

Paulzx

k_mac wrote: »

But can you not see that it's cutting off your nose to spite your face? Stick to your guns like that and we will see a massive reduction in both salary and allowances. I also never suggested eleiminating any night allowances or bank holiday allowance. I suggested reducing the hours night allowance applies to. 10pm to 6am maybe. I suggested reducing the rate of allowance which is currently at something like 20%. I also suggested eliminating the Saturday allowance because it isn't a big sacrifice. As to the rostered hours you work. Would you really be ok if you were told you'd be working 9-5 from now on and got no allowances at all?

Saturday allownace is feck all. Its a tenner. Tell you what, you can have it. Call it a goodwill gesture.


It is unacceptable to me as a frontline worker who works unsocial hours every week of the year that you think it is ok to target my unsocial hours payments.

What you are saying is that i will be singled out for more paycuts which will not apply to anyone working normal 9-5 hours. As i have already said i have taken a cut in allowances already as the across the board paycuts and pension levies apply to all of my pay.

MagicSean

Paulzx wrote: »

Saturday allownace is feck all. Its a tenner. Tell you what, you can have it. Call it a goodwill gesture.

This is what I was suggesting.

Paulzx wrote: »

It is unacceptable to me as a frontline worker who works unsocial hours every week of the year that you think it is ok to target my unsocial hours payments.

Most people here are frontline workers. But i have worked night shifts in the private sector and got minimal extra pay before I joined AGS. I'd have no problem taking a cut in my unsocial hours allowance, especially on weekdays. I see no reason why we should be paid extra for working between 6 p.m. and 10 p.m. Most people do that these days.

Paulzx wrote: »

What you are saying is that i will be singled out for more paycuts which will not apply to anyone working normal 9-5 hours. As i have already said i have taken a cut in allowances already as the across the board paycuts and pension levies apply to all of my pay.

No what I am saying is that if savings aren't delivered our basic pay will be cut and I would rather give up a few quid a week in allowances before this happens if it will mean protecting the basic.

Poccington

buzzman wrote: »

I get 9 euro extra in my pay for working Saturdays, however if you take my sunday/bank holiday allowance off me I'll be down an extra 6,000 euro a year in pay, do you think this is acceptable?? Cos I sure as hell don't. No shift pay means no shift work simple as that

Well either allowances start going, or basic pay starts getting hit.

Tango Alpha 51

Well if they take my allowances off me, like ive stated I'll be doing basic hours. I know people in the private sector who get a sunday allowance & there's no mention of their allowance being targeted. Do you honestly think that people will work christmas day for flat time

MagicSean

buzzman wrote: »

Well if they take my allowances off me, like ive stated I'll be doing basic hours. I know people in the private sector who get a sunday allowance & there's no mention of their allowance being targeted. Do you honestly think that people will work christmas day for flat time

I never suggested that. Bank holiday and Sunday pay are covered by legislation. If you read the posts I suggested giving up outdated allowances such as boot and uniform maintenance as well as Saturday allowance. I also suggested reducing the hours to which night allowance applies to and taking a reduction in the premium. This would probably result in a weekly reduction of about €25 but on paper would look like a larger sacrifice and show a willingness to engage in reform as per the agreement. It would also go a long way to preventing a reduction in our basic in the near future.

Rawhead

The big problem with giving up allowances or premium payments is once they are gone they will never come back. You talk about giving up the saturday allowance as a goodwill measure, it was us taking 2.5pc pension levy initially without a word that led us to losing 17pc in pay. Don't be so rash to give up our pay, when things recover and they will, the private sector pay will recover in a matter of months. It took us a long long f-ing time to get decent pay and don't be bullied into further pay cuts by the indo or anyone else. If the IMF arrive then they arrive. I'll accept changes to work practices and by all means trim the fat from the admin areas but stop talking about giving up our pay cause eoghin harris says so. Its not a million years ago when my mates were laughing at my wage slip[.

Delancey

Rawhead wrote: »

Its not a million years ago when my mates were laughing at my wage slip[.

Under the CPA however you can laugh at your mates P45's because you would be guaranteed no compulsory job losses.