Am I the only fan of Brian Cowen?

DiarmaidGNR

Guill wrote: »

I totally agree, whether people like him or not, he is the best man for the job. He will make all the though decisions, everyone will hate him and he will be voted out by the under informed when the job is done.

Well said.
It pisses me off to know he will be voted out.

dan_d

Actually I think Brian Cowen is quite an intelligent man - have been reliably informed of that by people who worked with him before he became taoiseach.

However I think that, in an effort to not court the media (ie he doesn't really care what the media think!!), he's shot himself in the foot. We've been through a terrible financial crisis and he could have done with saying something - anything - in the last 2 years. I'm not looking for an Obama-style speech. But anything!! Personally I don't want a Bertie Ahern-style leader who loves seeing the media. Cowen's style suits me okay, but NOT when we are having this kind of a crisis.

To carry this further, the more I hear Brian Lenihan speak, the more time I have for the man. I was listening to him the other evening on some radio programme....explaining the same facts to the same stupid journalist asking the same stupid questions that have been asked and answered at least once every single day in the last 2 years. The man kept his patience - if it had been me in his position, I wouldn't have. He must be seriously pi&%ed off answering the same rubbish day in and day out.

Now I won't go out and say Brian Lenihan should lead FF. I think the way things are at the moment is just fine. Well, as fine as it can be given our situation. Dress it up any way you will, there has to be cuts, and it doesn't matter who is in Government - they have to be done.Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. We don't need a general election right now...our budget announcements are causing havoc in the market place, can you imagine what would happen if we went out and said well, we've got a plan, we know what cuts we're making, but actually, we're voting out this crowd and voting in a new (and very uncertain combination) crowd?? Havoc would be a nice word...I'm pretty sure Ireland Inc would come to a dead stop. It wouldn't be pretty.

So yeah. I'm not a FF fan. In fact, I'm not really a politician fan in general. But I think the 2 Brians are doing the best they can at this point with the absolutely rubbish situation they inherited from Ahern and McCreevy. I think maybe they need to deal a bit more harshly with unions, stand up to them a lot more, but other than that they're doing okay lately. Looking at it objectively and trying not to be bitter about the state I find myself in, even.

DiarmaidGNR

dan_d wrote: »

Actually I think Brian Cowen is quite an intelligent man - have been reliably informed of that by people who worked with him before he became taoiseach.

However I think that, in an effort to not court the media (ie he doesn't really care what the media think!!), he's shot himself in the foot. We've been through a terrible financial crisis and he could have done with saying something - anything - in the last 2 years. I'm not looking for an Obama-style speech. But anything!! Personally I don't want a Bertie Ahern-style leader who loves seeing the media. Cowen's style suits me okay, but NOT when we are having this kind of a crisis.

To carry this further, the more I hear Brian Lenihan speak, the more time I have for the man. I was listening to him the other evening on some radio programme....explaining the same facts to the same stupid journalist asking the same stupid questions that have been asked and answered at least once every single day in the last 2 years. The man kept his patience - if it had been me in his position, I wouldn't have. He must be seriously pi&%ed off answering the same rubbish day in and day out.

Now I won't go out and say Brian Lenihan should lead FF. I think the way things are at the moment is just fine. Well, as fine as it can be given our situation. Dress it up any way you will, there has to be cuts, and it doesn't matter who is in Government - they have to be done.Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. We don't need a general election right now...our budget announcements are causing havoc in the market place, can you imagine what would happen if we went out and said well, we've got a plan, we know what cuts we're making, but actually, we're voting out this crowd and voting in a new (and very uncertain combination) crowd?? Havoc would be a nice word...I'm pretty sure Ireland Inc would come to a dead stop. It wouldn't be pretty.

So yeah. I'm not a FF fan. In fact, I'm not really a politician fan in general. But I think the 2 Brians are doing the best they can at this point with the absolutely rubbish situation they inherited from Ahern and McCreevy. I think maybe they need to deal a bit more harshly with unions, stand up to them a lot more, but other than that they're doing okay lately. Looking at it objectively and trying not to be bitter about the state I find myself in, even.

I totally agree! Any instability (viewed from the outside) will cause havoc with the interest rates on the countries borrowings.

I never understood the whole thing about him not being in the media enough, the way it is suits me fine as well.

I feel the same about Lenihan, he did some great interviews for bloomberg tv. If you watch the link in my original post, you will see Cowen does great speeches, and if you search on youtube for his interviews - you will see they are great as well.

Nobody seems to realise that Bertie and McCreevy are to blame for the situation.

storker

I see the problem as being less about how they're doing now versus how anyone else would manage, than it is about simple accountability. Although how ploughing ahead with the bank bailout despite expensive expert advise to do otherwise and showing a complete lack of leadership on the subject of cuts and not really making tough decisions at all, just harsh ones qualifies as doing a good job has yet to be explained. (Genuinely tough decisions would involve mercs, perks, quangos and the dismantling of the Croke Park Agreement).

They're trying to tax their way out of a recession, which goes contrary to economics 101, at least as far as I understand it. They are worried about everyone except the ordinary people who actually live in this state. "Yes, Sir, Mr Banker, Yes Sir, Mr Bondholder, three bags full, Mr Eurocrat, f**k off and suck it up, Mr Citizen". They are not prepared to lead by example, or to allow the democratic process to proceed. They know so little about anything themselves that they will do the bidding of anyone who appears to know more than they do. So if all that counts as doing a good job, then in some warped-dimension alternative reality, then I gues they must be.

The problem with supporting them now, though, either morally or with a vote, is that you cannot do so and be in favour of political accountability. Politicians are only accountable at elections and losing power is the only penalty they understand. Anyone who supports them now is tacitly saying that accountability is optional and is happy to reward the last 15 years of abysmal mismanagement.

Stork

bladespin

Brina Cowen, where to start, as minister for finance his policies pretty much caused all the mess we're in, as leader he disappeared when he was needed, he hides from the people he's supposed to lead, when he does come out of hiding it's to deny all and defend the government (pretty indefensible really).

He presents himself in the worst light (morning interview) and does nothing to allay the fears of the people.

All in all, I'd confidently say he's the worst taoiseach we've had (except maybe Dev).

DiarmaidGNR

bladespin wrote: »

Brina Cowen, where to start, as minister for finance his policies pretty much caused all the mess we're in, as leader he disappeared when he was needed, he hides from the people he's supposed to lead, when he does come out of hiding it's to deny all and defend the government (pretty indefensible really).

He presents himself in the worst light (morning interview) and does nothing to allay the fears of the people.

All in all, I'd confidently say he's the worst taoiseach we've had (except maybe Dev).

Charlie McCreevy caused the mess along with his main man Bertie.
But If you still believe it was Cowen, - Explain what specifics that caused our recession. (specifics implemented by Cowen)

If you want a Taoiseach that spends all of their time in the media spotlight, instead of working, you really have misplaced priorities.

paulaa

Cowen just carried on in the same vein as Bertie and McCreevy. He is now taking tough decisions yes, but only because he is under orders and intense scrutiny from the EU. Why didn't he start making decisions like this long ago. He spent billions on advisors and then promptly ignored their advice.

The man is an arrogant, power-hungry buffoon who is totally out of his depth and totally unsuited to run a country.

Is this thread a pre-emptive strike to counter the news today that Cowen was indeed aware of the threats to Anglo back as far as 2007 ? He has denied he knew what was happening until September 2008, but now it seems he has lied about that.

The story is in both the Daily Mail and the Indo today

Cowen knew that the fiscal roof was falling in when, as Finance Minister in late 2007, he involved himself in the Anglo Irish Bank crisis, setting up a kitchen cabinet to advise him on the detail and provide information about the bank's circumstances. Even then, the bank's fate was becoming perilous. Cowen claimed that he first heard of the problems in Anglo-Irish in September 2008. Yet he was at an Anglo Irish board dinner in April of that year where the discussion was exclusively about the problems faced by Anglo Irish Bank.

A major contributor to these problems was Sean Quinn, of Quinn Insurance. Quite openly and deliberately, in Cowen's presence, the discussion was focused on these financial difficulties. These were seriously aggravated by heavy gambling at the time with Contracts For Difference (CFD) which ultimately came to represent a quarter of Anglo Irish Bank shares.

Cowen promised intervention with the National Treasury Management Agency in order to get them to put deposits with Anglo. He knew this was necessary. Despite Cowen claiming he had told them to step in, the NTMA failed to follow this course.

The Financial Regulator, who has been generally characterised in the media as having been asleep at the wheel, was in fact in close contact with the bank and knew what had to be done. His hand was stayed, however, by sustained protection of Sean Quinn. Fianna Fail, including Cowen, were lobbying for Quinn. The Financial Regulator knew that Quinn was taking money from his insurance company -- picked up by the bank's auditors, PWC of Belfast -- and that this was illegal on two counts. However, Quinn was "untouchable".

The Financial Regulator, the Department of Finance, Morgan Stanley and Anglo Irish Bank all knew that the CFDs spelt death for the bank and the regulator should have picked up on them.

Instead, the Financial Regulator, the Central Bank and the Department of Finance, with Cowen's knowledge, were allowing Sean Quinn to take money from his insurance company and gamble it through the bank.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/this-government-has-discredited-ireland-2409820.html

DiarmaidGNR

storker wrote: »

I see the problem as being less about how they're doing now versus how anyone else would manage, than it is about simple accountability. Although how ploughing ahead with the bank bailout despite expensive expert advise to do otherwise and showing a complete lack of leadership on the subject of cuts and not really making tough decisions at all, just harsh ones qualifies as doing a good job has yet to be explained. (Genuinely tough decisions would involve mercs, perks, quangos and the dismantling of the Croke Park Agreement).

They're trying to tax their way out of a recession, which goes contrary to economics 101, at least as far as I understand it. They are worried about everyone except the ordinary people who actually live in this state. "Yes, Sir, Mr Banker, Yes Sir, Mr Bondholder, three bags full, Mr Eurocrat, f**k off and suck it up, Mr Citizen". They are not prepared to lead by example, or to allow the democratic process to proceed. They know so little about anything themselves that they will do the bidding of anyone who appears to know more than they do. So if all that counts as doing a good job, then in some warped-dimension alternative reality, then I gues they must be.

The problem with supporting them now, though, either morally or with a vote, is that you cannot do so and be in favour of political accountability. Politicians are only accountable at elections and losing power is the only penalty they understand. Anyone who supports them now is tacitly saying that accountability is optional and is happy to reward the last 15 years of abysmal mismanagement.

Stork

1 - Most experts said to do the bailout.
2 - They aren't trying to tax there way out, they are reducing spending. (I don't think a 1 or even 2% rise counts, - probably coming in next budget.) The rest of your second paragraph was the biggest load of ****e ever.
3 - They are best of a bad bunch.
4 - This thread was about Cowen, not Bertie. (Bertie was a jackass, along with McCreevy)

Coillte_Bhoy

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Is your first point not the role of the financial regulator?

Ah, no it's not. You dont seem to clued up on these things do you?

DiarmaidGNR

paulaa wrote: »

Cowen just carried on in the same vein as Bertie and McCreevy. He is now taking tough decisions yes, but only because he is under orders and intense scrutiny from the EU. Why didn't he start making decisions like this long ago. He spent billions on advisors and then promptly ignored their advice.

The man is an arrogant, power-hungry buffoon who is totally out of his depth and totally unsuited to run a country.

Is this thread a pre-emptive strike to counter the news today that Cowen was indeed aware of the threats to Anglo back as far as 2007 ? He has denied he knew what was happening until September 2008, but now it seems he has lied about that.

The story is in both the Daily Mail and the Indo today



http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/this-government-has-discredited-ireland-2409820.html

The Irish Independent is far from a neutral paper - (pure FineGael).
Did you not know the above before now? - In 2007 he ordered an in depth analysis but didn't get the results until months after.

Also, who started this rumor that he didn't take advice? - He took the best advice at the time.

Liam Byrne

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

But who would you rather - Brian Cowen the political leader, or Enda Kenny jackass?

For someone who claims to be neutral, that's a ridiculous post.

Cowen has done nothing to benefit this country for the past 2 years despite being "a political leader" (in name only; he hasn't indicated any leadership qualities) while Kenny has shown himself to be a weak opposition leader but certainly hasn't grown a tail and long ears.

You judge people by their choices and actions, not by preconceived biases.

Would I trust Kenny as a leader ? Not fully.
Would I trust him more than Cowen ? Definitely.

Next time maybe try to hide your bias a little more and your posts might be taken as sincere.

Laminations

Paulaa has linked to articles showing Cowen is a liar. Even if we ignored all his errors and failings as the OP is intent on doing- and this is aside from any argument that he is intelligent), Cowen is FF through and through, he was Bertie the jackass's right hand man, he openly defended Bertie and he hasn't exactly condemned previous policy decisions. He puts the party ahead of the country repeatedly. FF are not the best of a bad lot like the OP would like us to believe, even if the opposition have to do everything the exact same from now on, this doesn't make all parties the same. We need accountability for poor performance. OP I suspect you are in Cowens constituency, if so you exemplify his nickname

Liam Byrne

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

I agree, since 1997 FF have made some terrible decisions, but I don't see why everyone blames Cowen. It was Bertie and Charlie McCreevy!!!!!!!
McCreevy made a mess of the country!!

Did your fanship of Cowen only start AFTER he was Minister for Finance, or something ?

How long was Cowen Minister for Finance with plenty of opportunity to put the country back on a sensible track ?

DiarmaidGNR

Liam Byrne wrote: »

For someone who claims to be neutral, that's a ridiculous post.

Cowen has done nothing to benefit this country for the past 2 years despite being "a political leader" (in name only; he hasn't indicated any leadership qualities) while Kenny has shown himself to be a weak opposition leader but certainly hasn't grown a tail and long ears.

You judge people by their choices and actions, not by preconceived biases.

Would I trust Kenny as a leader ? Not fully.
Would I trust him more than Cowen ? Definitely.

Next time maybe try to hide your bias a little more and your posts might be taken as sincere.

I would vote for Cowen no matter what party he was part of, hence the title of my thread. Enda Kenny is the reason Fine Gael are not in power.

Het-Field

Ok OP.

Some of the decisions taken by McCreevy were the seminal events which gave rise to this mess. However, under Cowen Ireland became totally removed from the sustainable economic model which the FF/PD Government had been so good in maintaining, into a populist, faux leftist, vote buying model. This gave rise to the ludicrious decision to live off the windfall taxes of the property market (stamp duty, VAT, and CGT), excessive borrowing owing to access to cheap credit, thanks to artificially low interest rates in the EU, and massive increases in public expenditure of 10% per annum which were unsustainable vote buying exercises. These programmes and policies really took off in September 2004. This runs parallel with the time Brian Cowen spent in the Department of Finance. He will go down as one of the worst Finanace Ministers this country ever had. I would suggest you consider this, and try and rebut this assertion. However, I believe that without resorting to playing the sophist, you will have a very hard time doing so.

You also appear to be another FFer who has missed the part where FF have fessed up, and admitted that the damage was more structural than international. If you still believe this to be the case, then you must be reading out of the FF"Spin Book September 2008-November 2009". The Reigling and Watson and Honohan reports articulate that the problems were structural first, and international second. Brian Cowen made the mistake of not fessing up immediatly. If he had done, his tone could have changed, the way he spoke to the people would not have to have been in such a "im telling you lads", and could have been a more respectful "we need your help".

No matter what way this election pans out, Cowen is dead man walking. FF, regardless of whether they enter Government or not, will not have Cowen at the helm. FF will lose a plethora of seats, he has been incapable of enclosing the wagons around people like James McDaid, Noel Grealish, Tom Kitt, and Joe Behan. Further, some of the staunch party faithful that I know have virtually given up on him.

Your reasons for liking him are no more relevant then many of the diversionary attempts by this government to take the focus of the economic crisis. I would ask you to tell me Five Tangable Achievements of Brian Cowen. Then and only then will I consider this a debate worth having.

paulaa

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

The Irish Independent is far from a neutral paper - (pure FineGael).
Did you not know the above before now? - In 2007 he ordered an in depth analysis but didn't get the results until months after.

Also, who started this rumor that he didn't take advice? - He took the best advice at the time.

Are you serious ? The Indo has always been known as the propaganda organ of FF .

If he ( and his beloved party) had listened to advisors and analyists who were warning back as far as 2003 that the celtic tiger economy could not be sustained then he wouldn't have led this country into ruin and derision.

Really there is no excuse for any right minded, intelligent person to still try to excuse either Cowen or FF for the wanton destruction they have wreaked on this country and it's people.

ninty9er

caseyann wrote: »

And explain this to me,with everyone taking their hits on wages and expenses,where are his why arent they taking a big hit in their wages to save the country? While they can certainly hit the less well off no problem?

€57,000 is a fairly substantial pay cut in my book, regardless of what you were earning to begin with http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-to-take-836457000-pay-cut-1965694.html. Expect more cuts in the budget

Wake up to the facts!

storker wrote: »

They're trying to tax their way out of a recession, which goes contrary to economics 101, at least as far as I understand it.

That's economics 101 for high tax economies. That's why it wasn't a particularly smart move in the 80's, however after 10 years of PD economic policy we're a low tax economy with plenty of room for increases. It'll hurt people's standard of living, and they may have to go back to 1992 when sky was a channel that probably 1 in 20 had and not a €30 a month package deal, our choices as a nation are just as stark as the ones faced by Ray MacSharry in 1987, but our living standards are never going back there. 15-20% mortgage interest?? NO minimum wage?? Central heating installed in a fraction of the national housing stock??

People need to cop on to the fact that their living standards have to suffer. This will affect high earners too. If I earned €15,000 a month in 2010 that would be €180,000. If as part of my employer's rationalisation measures I have to take a 10% paycut for 2011 that will be €162,000 or €12,000 per month.

Take taxes at 2010 rates and my 2010 net income is €180,000-€75,228 (€104,772 or €8731 a month) giving an effective tax rate (including PRSI and health levy) of approx 41.8%

If the standard rate of tax increases 2% and the higher rate increases 3%, the universal health levy is applied to all income with no deductions at 10% and 5% rather than 8% and 5% and the income levy increases to 3%, 6% and 9% (all allowances and credits remaining equal then my 2011 income will be as follows

€162,000-€75,593 (€86,407 or €7,201 a month) giving an effective tax rate (including universal contribution) of 53.6%. Not only would I have less money to begin with, I would be paying slightly more tax on it.

Just because many of the people here (including myself) live on an income closer to the cut than the remainder doesn't mean that losing over €1,500 per month isn't going to affect this person's standard of living. People on a €180k salary are more likely to have a €2 million mortgage than you or I...not my fault or problem I hear you say, well no, but neither is it your fault or problem that someone took a €300k mortgage on €40k gross salary, so they will have to cut their cloth accordingly too. They are also more likely to have a car loan in the region of your mortgage payment each month.

Make no mistake, the high earners in society will be hit proportionally on 7 December.

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Charlie McCreevy caused the mess along with his main man Bertie.

If you want a Taoiseach that spends all of their time in the media spotlight, instead of working, you really have misplaced priorities.

McCreevy was not given the chance to make fiscal corrections. What he did up until 2004 would not have been an issue if he was the minister delivering Budgets 2005, 2006 and 2007. That, however, would have cost Fianna Fáil the 2007 general election, which is why he was packed off to Brussels.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

€57,000 is a fairly substantial pay cut in my book, regardless of what you were earning to begin with http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-to-take-836457000-pay-cut-1965694.html. Expect more cuts in the budget

Wake up to the facts!


That's economics 101 for high tax economies. That's why it wasn't a particularly smart move in the 80's, however after 10 years of PD economic policy we're a low tax economy with plenty of room for increases. It'll hurt people's standard of living, and they may have to go back to 1992 when sky was a channel that probably 1 in 20 had and not a €30 a month package deal, our choices as a nation are just as stark as the ones faced by Ray MacSharry in 1987, but our living standards are never going back there. 15-20% mortgage interest?? NO minimum wage?? Central heating installed in a fraction of the national housing stock??

People need to cop on to the fact that their living standards have to suffer. This will affect high earners too. If I earned €15,000 a month in 2010 that would be €180,000. If as part of my employer's rationalisation measures I have to take a 10% paycut for 2011 that will be €162,000 or €12,000 per month.

Take taxes at 2010 rates and my 2010 net income is €180,000-€75,228 (€104,772 or €8731 a month) giving an effective tax rate (including PRSI and health levy) of approx 41.8%

If the standard rate of tax increases 2% and the higher rate increases 3%, the universal health levy is applied to all income with no deductions at 10% and 5% rather than 8% and 5% and the income levy increases to 3%, 6% and 9% (all allowances and credits remaining equal then my 2011 income will be as follows

€162,000-€75,593 (€86,407 or €7,201 a month) giving an effective tax rate (including universal contribution) of 53.6%. Not only would I have less money to begin with, I would be paying slightly more tax on it.

Just because many of the people here (including myself) live on an income closer to the cut than the remainder doesn't mean that losing over €1,500 per month isn't going to affect this person's standard of living. People on a €180k salary are more likely to have a €2 million mortgage than you or I...not my fault or problem I hear you say, well no, but neither is it your fault or problem that someone took a €300k mortgage on €40k gross salary, so they will have to cut their cloth accordingly too. They are also more likely to have a car loan in the region of your mortgage payment each month.

Make no mistake, the high earners in society will be hit proportionally on 7 December.



McCreevy was not given the chance to make fiscal corrections. What he did up until 2004 would not have been an issue if he was the minister delivering Budgets 2005, 2006 and 2007. That, however, would have cost Fianna Fáil the 2007 general election, which is why he was packed off to Brussels.

Nice to know that one FFer admits and accepts that the 2004-2007 economic policy of FF was an attempt to buy votes, and an attempt to stay in power at all costs. "All costs" being the mess we are in now.

gandalf

paulaa wrote: »

Are you serious ? The Indo has always been known as the propaganda organ of FF

Nope they were pro-Fine Gael up until the mid-nineties.

See this quote from Wikipedia.

By the mid-nineties its allegiance to Fine Gael had ended. In the 1997 general election, it endorsed Fianna Fáil under a front page editorial, entitled "It's Payback Time". While it suggested its headline referred to the fact that the election offered a chance to "pay back" politicians for their failings, its opponents suggested that the "payback" actually referred to its chance to get revenge for the refusal of the Rainbow Coalition to award the company a mobile phone licence.[3] Tony O'Reilly disputes this claim.

They certainly are pro FF now but I believe "Sir" Tony and his horde of wannabe tabloid journalist have an issue with Cowen.

paulaa

gandalf wrote: »

Nope they were pro-Fine Gael up until the mid-nineties.

See this quote from Wikipedia.



They certainly are pro FF now but I believe "Sir" Tony and his horde of wannabe tabloid journalist have an issue with Cowen.

Thanks even though 13 years seems like forever. I was actually surprised to see that article in the Indo today. It seems the worm has turned.

Laminations

Het-Field wrote: »

Nice to know that one FFer admits and accepts that the 2004-2007 economic policy of FF was an attempt to buy votes, and an attempt to stay in power at all costs. "All costs" being the mess we are in now.

yes but sadly, even admitting this, he remains a FF fanboy

Laminations

ninty9er wrote: »

€57,000 is a fairly substantial pay cut in my book, regardless of what you were earning to begin with http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-to-take-836457000-pay-cut-1965694.html. Expect more cuts in the budget

Wake up to the facts!

The severity of a pay cut is always relative to the overall pay. Cowen is still highly overpaid for the size of this country and economy and that's aside from his mess ups. He essentially got promoted from his disastrous run as finance minister (something you agree with) so he never deserved his pay level

unit 1

Mr.Micro wrote: »

aka Biffo :D

aka BUFFALO:D:D

storker

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

1 - Most experts said to do the bailout.
2 - They aren't trying to tax there way out, they are reducing spending. (I don't think a 1 or even 2% rise counts, - probably coming in next budget.) The rest of your second paragraph was the biggest load of ****e ever.
3 - They are best of a bad bunch.

Careful, I think your FF rosette is showing.

Stork

BillShorey

He's an immeasurable amount better than anything the competition are putting forward currently. Enda Kenny at the helm is a nightmare I pray the country never has to realise. Indeed, FG at the helm is a nightmare the country should never have to realise either.

Cowen got extremely unlucky by becoming Taoiseach at one of the worst times in our nation's history. I don't feel he deserves the slack he gets.

I'm not a FF voter either, or I should say I haven't voted for them yet, but I've come to realise that they're certainly the best of a bad bunch in this country. The competition is appalling.

Het-Field

BillShorey wrote: »

He's an immeasurable amount better than anything the competition are putting forward currently. Enda Kenny at the helm is a nightmare I pray the country never has to realise. Indeed, FG at the helm is a nightmare the country should never have to realise either.

Cowen got extremely unlucky by becoming Taoiseach at one of the worst times in our nation's history. I don't feel he deserves the slack he gets.

I'm not a FF voter either, or I should say I haven't voted for them yet, but I've come to realise that they're certainly the best of a bad bunch in this country. The competition is appalling.

I certainly feel sorry for a man who is now at the helm of an organisation who's problems mainly eminate from the Department of which he was at the helm during the years when the wantonly stupid policy was implemented. Oh wait, Cowen is as much to blame as anybody else for the policies which have landed us in this mess. Obviously you didnt read the Sunday Business Post last week.

How are FG a "nightmare" ? What have they promised differently ? I believe both parties are at one on the measure of the challange, and at one in terms of the extent of the necessary cuts. To me, both are almost indistinguishable from each other.

ninty9er

Het-Field wrote: »

Nice to know that one FFer admits and accepts that the 2004-2007 economic policy of FF was an attempt to buy votes, and an attempt to stay in power at all costs. "All costs" being the mess we are in now.

Not only that..I did then and continue to say promises to increase the pension and cut taxes even further after 2007 were ridiculous. It doesn't make me popular, but it allows me to say "told ya so"

murphaph

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country.

He didn't touch the state pension since this crisis began. Tough decisions my arse.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

Not only that..I did then and continue to say promises to increase the pension and cut taxes even further after 2007 were ridiculous. It doesn't make me popular, but it allows me to say "told ya so"

Many well respect economists would suggest that tax take has little or nothing to do with the crisis we are in. I would suggest that it is partial truth. When you want to go on the spending binge that the FFers went on to ensure the purchase of votes, it made the whole system unsustainable. Thus, the root cause was increased and unsustainable expenditure, which wouldnt have been fully mitigated by higher taxes. Equally, if the state had been frugal, and allowed the nation to stand on its own two feet, then we would never have had a problem. As such, I dont believe you can tell people that you "told us so", as I believe the basis for such an assertion is misleading in the context of the reality of the situation. It was spending increases of 10% per annum which was the tippin point, and the ultimate cause of our demise. I would also point out that there were no real taxation cuts after the 2007 election. Once that muck with Bertie was disposed of, the ****storm hit.

BillShorey

Het-Field wrote: »

I certainly feel sorry for a man who is now at the helm of an organisation who's problems mainly eminate from the Department of which he was at the helm during the years when the wantonly stupid policy was implemented. Oh wait, Cowen is as much to blame as anybody else for the policies which have landed us in this mess. Obviously you didnt read the Sunday Business Post last week.

How are FG a "nightmare" ? What have they promised differently ? I believe both parties are at one on the measure of the challange, and at one in terms of the extent of the necessary cuts. To me, both are almost indistinguishable from each other.

I indeed didnt read the Sunday Business Post last week. FG and FF are indeed similar, however internally FG is an absolute mess and is in no way ready to govern this country.

Do you recall the incident whereby FG were planning on tabling a motion of no confidence and the day before Richard Bruton went and declared he had no confidence in Kenny as a leader? I mean, the timing could not have been worse, from a supposedly intelligent man. We then saw a split between high profile FG members who spoke to the media about how they felt Kenny isnt a fit leader, how they supported Bruton etc.

Yet the very next week, when Kenny announced he was willing to take some back, you had very high profile members such as Olivia Mitchell, who the week before said Kenny was not the leader for FG or this country, saying she had complete confidence in him and would serve the leader in any capacity. Same goes for Bruton. Really? Is this party really fit to do anything in this country? I dont believe so.

Enda Kenny is an issue in himself. I recall canvassing and being told that people would vote for FG if it werent for Enda Kenny. Yet, did the party ever take this feedback on board? Not at all! And it cost them the last General Election! If they cant follow the will of the people on something as minor as the leader of their party at the time of election, how could they ever be expected to follow the will of the people when it comes to actually serious matters?

I was at a talk with Enda Kenny not so long ago, where he was telling of all the impressive sounding policies and iniatives FG had. Yet, when it came to question time, he could not answer a single question directly. He was pushed on several matters yet dodged them by telling unrelated anecdotes. He hadnt a single figure to hand either. It was a complete sham. This isnt a one-off incident either, every questioning he faces yields nothing but scripted, irrelevant answers.

From the top to bottom they are some of the most pretentious, self-serving people Ive ever met. They are not fit to Govern or represent Ireland and it would be a nightmare, for me at the very least, to see them at the helm.

murphaph

BillShorey wrote: »

He's an immeasurable amount better than anything the competition are putting forward currently. Enda Kenny at the helm is a nightmare I pray the country never has to realise. Indeed, FG at the helm is a nightmare the country should never have to realise either.

Cowen got extremely unlucky by becoming Taoiseach at one of the worst times in our nation's history. I don't feel he deserves the slack he gets.

I'm not a FF voter either, or I should say I haven't voted for them yet, but I've come to realise that they're certainly the best of a bad bunch in this country. The competition is appalling.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on!

DiarmaidGNR

murphaph wrote: »

Pull the other one, it's got bells on!

Why is that hard to believe? I haven't voted for FF yet either.

BillShorey

murphaph wrote: »

Pull the other one, it's got bells on!

Honestly. I will more than likely vote for them going forward as I do now see them as the best of a bad bunch, but traditionally I have voted FG (and was actively involved with them at one point). Their true colours really shone through over the past year and who could they have had as a better champion of self-interest than George Lee.

southsiderosie

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Is your first point not the role of the financial regulator?

No, the government has to make the laws.

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

In your second point - "projected revenues" - they are exactly that - projected, - a forecast based on a myriad of factors.

Go and read the budgets. In 2008, the government downgraded its expected revenues from stamp duties, indicating that they understood that the housing market was slowing down. At the same time, they raised estimates for income tax and VAT. Given that consumption was largely driven by wealth generated in property and construction, this was idiotic, and was clearly meant to mitigate the wide gap between expenditures and revenues. In addition, for the last two years, the government has constantly revised its expected deficits, and the markets simply do not trust anything they have to say, because they know it will change four months later. This has helped to push interest rates over 7%

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

3rd point - I agree. (apart from the by election thing). I actually contacted the minister for education on the whole catholic thing, - shortly after wards the state started buying schools from the catholic church.
Also the way you phrase "Irish citizens" sounds very familiar, I think a certain fine gael politican likes to use similar phrases at least once in every sentence.

I am not a member of any Irish political party, although thanks for trying to subtly tag me as partisan.

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

And on your final point, - I just don't see it. I realise how easy it is to be pissed off at the government right now, but he is soo much better than Bertie and Charlie (along with the opposition), he really is the best we've got! (doesn't really say much about Irish politicians)

It doesn't matter what the alternatives are, Brian Cowen's leadership has been disastrous. It the current state of the country doesn't make that obvious, I don't know what will.

galwayrush

BillShorey wrote: »

He's an immeasurable amount better than anything the competition are putting forward currently. Enda Kenny at the helm is a nightmare I pray the country never has to realise. Indeed, FG at the helm is a nightmare the country should never have to realise either.

Cowen got extremely unlucky by becoming Taoiseach at one of the worst times in our nation's history. I don't feel he deserves the slack he gets.

I'm not a FF voter either, or I should say I haven't voted for them yet, but I've come to realise that they're certainly the best of a bad bunch in this country. The competition is appalling.

How so? Kenny has not done any damage to the country, unlike Cowen who was right at the heart of it when the damage was being done. He deserves all the slack he gets, he made his own luck.

paulaa

galwayrush wrote: »

How so? Kenny has not done any damage to the country, unlike Cowen who was right at the heart of it when the damage was being done. He deserves all the slack he gets, he made his own luck.

No to mention the fact that he has absolutely no credibility abroad either

david75

Cowen and FF cannot be trusted at all. They got us here remember and are in the pockets of vested interests viz developers and banks.

Time for change. it's too bad FG and Labour will eat into each others numbers in the next election, leaving us with either FF still in power or an ineffectual limp coalition. Catch 22 completely but a change has to come.

Guill

Please note that during the 'boom' the opposition kept attacking Cowen for not spending enough. Now that the money is gone the opposition are saying he f**ked things up! FFS, where would we be if they got there way during the 'tiger' years? All opposition parties seem to take the belief that opposition means just saying that the government is wrong every time, I have no confidence in them and their complete lack of understanding. We need the guys who are willing to take action in power now. There is no sense in voting FF out when the alternative parties wont get stuck in and do the dirty work. What direct benifit would we have by voting FG and labour in?

bladespin

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

Charlie McCreevy caused the mess along with his main man Bertie.
But If you still believe it was Cowen, - Explain what specifics that caused our recession. (specifics implemented by Cowen)

If you want a Taoiseach that spends all of their time in the media spotlight, instead of working, you really have misplaced priorities.

Yawn, gerr out of it, appointing regulators that do nothing, responding to a property bubble about to burst by dropping stamp for first time buyers (trap another few in negative equity), refusing to listen to pretty much every economist warning of the bubble, hiding behind Bertie, protecting the 'golden circle' until it was too late, pushing enquiries that can't investigate the actual facts due to an insulation of dates allowed, investigate everyone bar the government please.

Charlie McCreevy caused nothing, he implemented a strategy that started the Tiger, he didn't stop it.

BTW this guy is MY Taoiseach, I'm entitled to my opinion; my priorities are my family, my country and myself, he's damaged all.

A leader who hides is failing in his primary responsibility - to protect his followers, he should be the first to stand and the last to lay down, Brian Cowen got this bit arseways. He should have stood in front of and by the people, instead he deserted them to let fear and speculation scare them, the damage this did is eveiden in our economy, people are saving incredible proportions of their income out of fear, this itself is the main factor that has prolonged the recession.

He still hasn't adressed the antion about the state we're in, instead he leaves that to Lenihan and the press.

Now if I'm wrong explain to me how he protected us from the bubble, what policies he implemented to halt it, how he tackled corruption in banking, how I missed when he stood up and calmed the peoples fears and how he was hoarse 'that' morning.

Het-Field

BillShorey wrote: »

I indeed didnt read the Sunday Business Post last week. FG and FF are indeed similar, however internally FG is an absolute mess and is in no way ready to govern this country.

Do you recall the incident whereby FG were planning on tabling a motion of no confidence and the day before Richard Bruton went and declared he had no confidence in Kenny as a leader? I mean, the timing could not have been worse, from a supposedly intelligent man. We then saw a split between high profile FG members who spoke to the media about how they felt Kenny isnt a fit leader, how they supported Bruton etc.

Yet the very next week, when Kenny announced he was willing to take some back, you had very high profile members such as Olivia Mitchell, who the week before said Kenny was not the leader for FG or this country, saying she had complete confidence in him and would serve the leader in any capacity. Same goes for Bruton. Really? Is this party really fit to do anything in this country? I dont believe so.

Enda Kenny is an issue in himself. I recall canvassing and being told that people would vote for FG if it werent for Enda Kenny. Yet, did the party ever take this feedback on board? Not at all! And it cost them the last General Election! If they cant follow the will of the people on something as minor as the leader of their party at the time of election, how could they ever be expected to follow the will of the people when it comes to actually serious matters?

I was at a talk with Enda Kenny not so long ago, where he was telling of all the impressive sounding policies and iniatives FG had. Yet, when it came to question time, he could not answer a single question directly. He was pushed on several matters yet dodged them by telling unrelated anecdotes. He hadnt a single figure to hand either. It was a complete sham. This isnt a one-off incident either, every questioning he faces yields nothing but scripted, irrelevant answers.

From the top to bottom they are some of the most pretentious, self-serving people Ive ever met. They are not fit to Govern or represent Ireland and it would be a nightmare, for me at the very least, to see them at the helm.

I see bull**** now comes in industrial strength sizes

You could have summed your hackneyed point up in two words i.e. "Enda Kenny". Instead you just level criticisms which could be attributable to almost every political leader on ths Ireland. At what point has Brian Cowen ever given a remark of great political probiety or insight ? At what point has Brian Cowen ever avoided proffering verbal diahhorea in exchange for noteworthy, and implementable policy or ideology ?

The Kenny/Bruton split ? Yes it was unedifying from FG. It was unwelcome for those of the blueshirt persuasion. However, it has long since passed. I would also question why FF have stuck with Cowen for so long. I know what you would say, but I would venture that 18% in the polls makes instability a non-runner as far as the careerist hacks and glorified County Councellors are concerned. They want to retain their seats, and instability now deprives them of every opportunity of doing so. Otherwise, much like Albert Reynolds, he would have been ousted without mercy.

Im also interested by your definition of the typical FGer. It is just as reprehensible and ignorant as the average steryotype that a FGer holds about the average FGer.

Your post was pathetic, and is the usual rubbish I have come to expect.

doc_17

In relation to your question we are where we are going forward.

I think the above answer does most questions these days

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

€57,000 is a fairly substantial pay cut in my book, regardless of what you were earning to begin with

€57,000 of the extra cash that you don't need. €57,000 would be a substantial cut if it left someone with €15,000 a year.

ninty9er wrote: »

....after 10 years of PD economic policy we're a low tax economy with plenty of room for increases.

Really ? Let's leave aside that it's amazing that you're claiming that it was "PD economic policy" - I don't ever remember them being in government on their own - and look at the facts and reality of day-to-day living.

Once upon a time, your taxes paid for lots of things; refuse removal, roads, schools, a health service, etc.

Nowadays, while you might be paying slightly less tax, you are charged for all of the above, and are soon to be charged for your own septic tank and your own property (despite having already paid stamp duty, etc).

So let's assume that someone was on, say, €25,000; their "tax" might be down from €3,000 a year to about €2,500 a year, but add in all of the above and their outgoings are massively higher; €800 a year on tolls, double the fees on health insurance and doctor/hospital fees, etc, not to mention paying way over the odds for most goods and services because of the cost of doing business in this country.

So I would argue that they are now paying MORE for the same services.

So where is this scope for extra taxation ? At what stage does the above person wonder whether it's worth living and working in this country ?

Add in FF ministers claiming that they can't live on €67,000 a year, and you've got an obvious disparity between the real world and FF-world.

Essexboy

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

He is a qualified barrister. Enda Kenny is a primary school teacher.

Biffo is a SOLICITOR!

Essexboy

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

I have to admit, I prefer American politics due to it's entertaining nature, but lately I have been listening/watching Oireachtas sessions online, and I have to admit - I'm loving Brian Cowen!!

He is extremely intelligent.
He is very well spoken (apart from the fat man slur(not a drunken one!)).
He knows figures off by heart.
And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country. (in my own opinion)

All of these qualities seemed to be magnified due to Enda Kennys inadequacies.


Here is Cowens latest speech. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMzUbzDH2IA&feature=sub

Judge for yourself. Plenty of videos of all Dail sessions online.

***NB*** I am not part of any political party, I just call it the way I see it.

And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country

Like FÁS? Where he defended Rody Molloy, then gave him a golden handshake
just like Pat Neary!

BillShorey

Het-Field wrote: »

I see bull**** now comes in industrial strength sizes

You could have summed your hackneyed point up in two words i.e. "Enda Kenny". Instead you just level criticisms which could be attributable to almost every political leader on ths Ireland. At what point has Brian Cowen ever given a remark of great political probiety or insight ? At what point has Brian Cowen ever avoided proffering verbal diahhorea in exchange for noteworthy, and implementable policy or ideology ?

The Kenny/Bruton split ? Yes it was unedifying from FG. It was unwelcome for those of the blueshirt persuasion. However, it has long since passed. I would also question why FF have stuck with Cowen for so long. I know what you would say, but I would venture that 18% in the polls makes instability a non-runner as far as the careerist hacks and glorified County Councellors are concerned. They want to retain their seats, and instability now deprives them of every opportunity of doing so. Otherwise, much like Albert Reynolds, he would have been ousted without mercy.

Im also interested by your definition of the typical FGer. It is just as reprehensible and ignorant as the average steryotype that a FGer holds about the average FGer.

Your post was pathetic, and is the usual rubbish I have come to expect.

I'm sorry I upset you by criticising your leader, I had no idea Enda had fans with such an emotional investment in his character.

The Kenny/Bruton ordeal did one of the most important things that FG have done for this country in recent years: It split the belly of the party open and exposed them for what they truly are.

Coupled with the absolute mockery of Irish Politics that was George Lee and the subsequent handling of that joke by FG, the party have shown that they are in no way fit to govern this country.

What is your stance on Kenny's decision with regards to George Lee? He absolutely shafted a very devoted and very capable South Dublin councillor (who has now gone on to do a lot better things with his life than FG as a result) to run that mockery to Irish politics for the seat. Are you going to stand by and support that? What about how he handled the resignation? This was on Kenny's back, at a time when Kenny had 0 approval from the public, why didn't he do the right thing and give up his leadership after that farce?

Why, despite such clear pleas from the voters to do so, has Kenny not given up his leadership in favour of someone who will actually lead the party into government in this country?

He's absolutely indefensible, he's a bumbling fool and will make a mockery of this country if he is ever to represent us as Taoiseach.

I'm not here claiming that Brian Cowen is a magnificant leader whose every word glistens with life changing inspiration, but he's a hell of a lot better than the alternative right now.

If FG are to ever be in power here, I can only hope they get Richard Bruton or Leo Varadkar to the helm to do so. Also, I'm sorry you felt my post was pathetic, but there isn't a word of a lie in it and I'm sorry if it hurts to hear/read.

Liam Byrne

BillShorey wrote: »

the party have shown that they are in no way fit to govern this country.

So "bickering" somehow precludes them from running the country as much as screwing up the economy ?

BillShorey wrote: »

What is your stance on Kenny's decision with regards to George Lee? He absolutely shafted a very devoted and very capable South Dublin councillor (who has now gone on to do a lot better things with his life than FG as a result) to run that mockery to Irish politics for the seat.

Maybe because a "devoted and capable" South Dublin councillor isn't qualified enough to fix the economy ?

Should people be given jobs that they're not suitable for just because they're "devoted" ?

Actually, don't bother answering that, because if you either support or excuse FF then we already know the answer.

BillShorey wrote: »

Why, despite such clear pleas from the voters to do so, has Kenny not given up his leadership in favour of someone who will actually lead the party into government in this country?

What "clear pleas" ? You mean the opinion polls ? The same mechanism that has shown "a clear plea" from the country for FF to get the hell out of office ? A plea that they're not only ignoring, but actively contesting in the courts in order to manipulate democratic by-elections for their own interest ?

BillShorey wrote: »

He's absolutely indefensible, he's a bumbling fool and will make a mockery of this country if he is ever to represent us as Taoiseach.

Show me a better alternative and I'll run with that argument. Shane Ross or Pat Rabbitte would be my preference, but failing that Kenny & Gilmore are streets ahead of the former Minister for Finance who led us head-first into this fiasco and has lied through his teeth every step of the way.

Name ONE thing that Cowen has actually DONE in the interests of the country since the crisis emerged.

Cowen is complicit in the causes of the crisis and makes it worse every time he opens his mouth, whether it's the latest lie or the immovable and undemocratic statements about "saving the banks at all costs"; as soon as someone on the markets hears that, the sound "ka-ching" goes off in their head and they know that they can screw us as much as they want, as proven by the interest rates.

Liam Byrne

Essexboy wrote: »

And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country

Note/Clarification: The above isn't actually Essexboy's own opinion

One can only wonder when he started doing that, because he certainly didn't do it while he was Minister for Finance.

And I also don't know how "returning AIB to its former glory" (i.e. back when it wrote off FF debts) or bailing out the Anglo cesspit with our money is meant to "better the country".

x in the city

DiarmaidGNR wrote: »

I have to admit, I prefer American politics due to it's entertaining nature, but lately I have been listening/watching Oireachtas sessions online, and I have to admit - I'm loving Brian Cowen!!

He is extremely intelligent.
He is very well spoken (apart from the fat man slur(not a drunken one!)).
He knows figures off by heart.
And he is willing to make unpopular decisions to better the country. (in my own opinion)

All of these qualities seemed to be magnified due to Enda Kennys inadequacies.


Here is Cowens latest speech. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMzUbzDH2IA&feature=sub

Judge for yourself. Plenty of videos of all Dail sessions online.

***NB*** I am not part of any political party, I just call it the way I see it.

are you smokin pineapple express?

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote: »

Charles Haughey was not only a qualified barrister, but also a Chartered Accountant and held a BA from UCD.

Your point is...?

I didn't know that Charlie Haughey was a Barrister?
Have you a source for that? [other than wikipedia which I don't trust]

BillShorey

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So "bickering" somehow precludes them from running the country as much as screwing up the economy ?

Sorry but that incident cannot be dismissed as "bickering". It was an absolute sham, the day before one of the most critical moments of late for the party and they go and completely screw it up. They then go on to expose themselves as self-serving cretins. Mocking Kenny one day when you think your chances are better with Bruton and then back suckling at the teet publicly when Kenny mentions he might take the "rebels" back? Don't make me laugh! Bickering! Half his front bench turned their backs on him and publicly claimed he was an unfit leader, then they were back lapping at the saucer the next week saying hes great!? A joke, a complete and utter joke. It's also an indefensible joke.

Maybe because a "devoted and capable" South Dublin councillor isn't qualified enough to fix the economy ?

Should people be given jobs that they're not suitable for just because they're "devoted" ?

Actually, don't bother answering that, because if you either support or excuse FF then we already know the answer.

Oh sorry, I didn't know the TD to represent South Dublin was meant to fix the economy? Because that's what George Lee was brought in to run for, to represent the people and interests of South Dublin. He had ideas about himself, sure enough, but that's what the job description was and I'm extremely sorry if you and him can't accept that fact.

The councillor in question had huge support in South Dublin and would have been a great representative. George Lee was not and never could have been. He hadn't a clue and was like a rabbit frozen in the headlights most of the times I saw him.

He was brought in to run for the South Dublin seat and left over reasons that had nothing to do with it. Again, an absolute, indefensible sham.

What "clear pleas" ? You mean the opinion polls ? The same mechanism that has shown "a clear plea" from the country for FF to get the hell out of office ? A plea that they're not only ignoring, but actively contesting in the courts in order to manipulate democratic by-elections for their own interest ?

No, the clear pleas from literally everyone at the doors when I was out canvassing. It was probably the number 1 statement said about FG at the time of the elections. If "We would vote for your party and put them into government if it werent for your leader" isn't a strong enough message then I dont know what is. How they could continue to ignore this given they have literally no chance of getting in with Kenny at the helm apart from extreme desperation is just amazing and truly telling of the parties attitude to the will of the people.

FF are the Government. They were elected and are serving their term there. They won an extremely important opinion poll not so long ago to get there. Some opinion poll in the newspaper shouldn't control what they do or who is governing. Don't be ridiculous.

Show me a better alternative and I'll run with that argument. Shane Ross or Pat Rabbitte would be my preference, but failing that Kenny & Gilmore are streets ahead of the former Minister for Finance who led us head-first into this fiasco and has lied through his teeth every step of the way.

Lead us head first? Christ, youd swear free will didnt exist any more. The Irish people ****ed the Irish nation. From the council workers demanding 35k salaries to the people demanding mortgages they couldn't afford long term. We screwed ourselves, but noone is to blame, were all human and make mistakes and everyone got greedy and caught up in the whirlwind of money. Now we've to pay the price, however trying to point the finger at the government and have the blame stop there is laughable at best.

Name ONE thing that Cowen has actually DONE in the interests of the country since the crisis emerged.

Lowered VAT.

Amusing.