Ammonia v Sugar Soap?

GreySquirrel

I'm using Zinsser bullseye 123, but it says wash down surfaces first with Ammonia, don't use TSP which is American for Sugar Soap.

Any ideas why?

Wertz

Hmmm that's an odd one. What are you washing down?
Bullseye is usually used as a primer, so perhaps they're not recommending unprimed surfaces be washed with sugar soap...possibly to avoid alkali residue and a subsequent reaction.
Ammonia will degrease just as well as SS and evaporates leaving no residue... The residue from SS has to be washed off with cold water afterwards.
There aren't too many caveats on zinsser products so best do as they say.

GreySquirrel

Wertz wrote: »

Hmmm that's an odd one. What are you washing down?
Bullseye is usually used as a primer, so perhaps they're not recommending unprimed surfaces be washed with sugar soap...possibly to avoid alkali residue and a subsequent reaction.
Ammonia will degrease just as well as SS and evaporates leaving no residue... The residue from SS has to be washed off with cold water afterwards.
There aren't too many caveats on zinsser products so best do as they say.

Ceiling, skirting and architrave.

The ceiling I have already washed down with sugar soap and rinsed. There was some flaking around the perimiter which i scrapped off and sanded the edges. I'm thinking that wallpaper paste wet the edges and lifted them.

I have both BIN and 123. I dont know whether to spot prime with Bin or 123. I think the water in the 123 might lift the edges again. OR prime the whole ceiling before I paint.


EDIT: http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f109/old-ceiling-damage-stain-issue-7456/

Wertz

Yeah I'd spot prime with the BIN where it's peeled.
Why are you priming the ceiling? Damp marks or something? If it's sugar soaped and dry then standard emulsion is fine...priming it is going to be expensive and isn't going to gain you much. Keep the 123 for the woodwork.

[edit] Good advice on that forum. I have to disagree with the guy on something, though he's technically correct about sugar soap not etching emulsion, it's still a brilliant cleaner for emulsion paintwork, especially where there's a lot of grease, soot, nicotine/tar or other stubborn dirt and it doesn't damage the paint film. If a surface needs etching it should be done with med grade sandpaper anyway.

GreySquirrel

I'll spot prime with the BIN and go with the ceiling emulsion.

I worked out although the ceiling looks huge it is only 1/3 the area of the walls, but when SSing and rinsing it felt like I was covering an area the size of a football pitch.

My parents were smokers but the ceiling looks clean. There's a few small flakey spots on other places of the ceiling, so I'll have a look for more before I go BINing.

I don't know what paint is on ceiling now, but where it flkes off there is bare plaster, pinkish and chalky.

Wertz

Lot of work in ceilings, because it's all above your head.
Don't worry about what is on the ceiling paint wise...even if it is oil it'll be a flat oil and modern emulsion won't have a problem sticking to it.
Definitely prime (and maybe even fill) where the pink plaster is though.

GreySquirrel

ok, going for my tea now. Will update with my progress.

GreySquirrel

GreySquirrel wrote: »

ok, going for my tea now. Will update with my progress.

There's a lot more flakey areas than I first thought. I wondering now if I should scrape down the whole ceiling?

Googling led me to pages about distemper/limewash.

There is paint? under the flakey paint, chalky and very thin.

Would I have to remove this as well befor sealing the ceiling?

Wertz

Just how old is the house? Limewash and distemper are pre 1930's on interiors for the most part.
The wishy washy whiteness you're seeing could be a sealer coat of very thin undercoat.
Definitely scrape/sand everything back to a sound surface...it'll just wrap around the roller otherwise and lead to much heartbreak.

GreySquirrel

theres so much flaky patches that i've decided to strip the whole ceiling and then seal it.

Edit: The flakey paint is coming off very easily, not as quick as wallpaper but satisfyingly quickly. i hope to have most of it done this evening.

House is 1950's.

the chalky stuff comes off with the paint in some places. what would be the best way to clean the rest of it off?

bulleyes 123 is suitable for chalky and high ph surfaces according to the man in the paint shop. i don't mind the expense too much if it gives me a good result.

Wertz

Ouch. Was the flakiness there before you washed it down?

GreySquirrel

Wertz wrote: »

Ouch. Was the flakiness there before you washed it down?

It was around the edges. I don't think it was elsewhere but if it was i didn't notice it from the ground.

But i have a felling it might have been

Edit: er, feeling

GreySquirrel

gonig up the ladder now

GreySquirrel

finished for the night

mad m

Ugh!! brings my mind back to working in John Players South Circular road years back, had to get up a 25+ foot ladder, work off a platform to wash down angled ceilings before repainting.

Don't envy you, washing down ceiling with SS...Used to hate it myself, your elbows would be soaking plus it ain't great on my elbows with prolonged use.

Had a window cleaner type product with an angled head which was great for scrubbing ceilings, it would keep SS away from me plus it was easy on the arms.

A bit late now with the advice but keep it in mind for future reference.

GreySquirrel

the sugar soaping wasn't too bad. i used one of those floor squigee thingys. Rinsing was harder. It all for naught now. I have most of the ceiling stripped, will finish it tomorrow.

GreySquirrel

I'm back up the ladder. A lot of the paint just peels off, some spots it's stuck like s$#t to a blanket. I gave a test run on the chalky stuff, wiped it with warm water, it came off very easily.

GreySquirrel

i've washed down the ceiling with warm water, most of the chalky stuff came off. I've spotprimed patches that were down to the plaster board and filled them, then 1 2 3'ed the whole ceiling and the used dulux ceiling white. Looks good.

I had problems in the past with papering the walls, even with size the paper stuck like s#~t to a blanket and i couldn't line it up. so i 123'ed the walls as well, expensive but hopefully worth it. they ready for wallpapering now.

I have to do the woodwork and put in an extra electrical socket and fix two floor boards.

i have amassed an interest selection of cleaning materials, ammonia, bleach, white spirit, meths.