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Should beginers be so experimental?

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    #32
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    Oh I agree that I should start emulating music I like, in order to learn how to make that kind of music.

    However, I think the best way for me, and other new producers, to learn to be an original producer, is to open a new project, spend hours on a drum loop copied from a track you like, until it sounds perfect, and then trash that project. Instead of copying a full track, just changing the melody and whatever, and putting it on Soundcloud and calling it x- y (original mix).

    If you get me...

    I think I need to do that more, and young producers should, and then when the start a project to make a full track, they should be experimental.
    At the risk of this sounding like condescending advice, I think you need to really sit down and spend a while getting your mixing chops together. You've clearly got the music in you, but you're really not doing any justice to your ideas with your mixes.

    The only way you learn how to mix is constant constant constant repetition and comparing to other tracks in a similar genre.

    There are certain methods and techniques you find in all music production, from stevie wonder to Sandwell District, and they don't come about by fiddling around and experimenting. They come with hours upon hours of studying the craft.


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    #33
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    seannash wrote: »
    But finishing a track is a huge part of it.how many sketches have people got going on in there daws.
    Its hugely beneficial to finish as you learn about arrangement,buildups,how to build tension,how to get that drum loop sounding great in a track etc.
    These things will turn you into a better producer

    Until you've heard your track properly mastered and after separating yourself from it as a work, you're not hearing it. The distance between having a sketch and having an actual track, is soooo much longer than most people would like to believe.


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    #34
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    oh and btw, I have no idea if there's anybody here actually experimenting. I mean if you're in the standard setup of a DAW using midi, plugins, etc. , it's not experimental.

    If you're using Max or Pure Data or CSound or whatever then yeah it's experimenting. If you're whackin a load of wacky fx on in ableton, that's not being experimental, that's just mangling sh1t in a way a billion and one other bedroom producers are doing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I always find the 'experimental' word pulled out when people are lacking in talent or cohesion or vision.


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    #35
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    jtsuited wrote: »
    oh and btw, I have no idea if there's anybody here actually experimenting. I mean if you're in the standard setup of a DAW using midi, plugins, etc. , it's not experimental.

    If you're using Max or Pure Data or CSound or whatever then yeah it's experimenting. If you're whackin a load of wacky fx on in ableton, that's not being experimental, that's just mangling sh1t in a way a billion and one other bedroom producers are doing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I always find the 'experimental' word pulled out when people are lacking in talent or cohesion or vision.
    yep,seems like it cover a multitude of sins because it give the producer a get off jail card when there criticized.Not everyone can be a musical prodigy and theres not shame in admitting it

    I do think OldGregg does some experimental work.Its not that it hasn't been done before but I do admire the effort that goes into his music


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    #36
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    Yeah if Old Gregg's not experimental I don't know what is.


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    #37
    electrogrimey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭electrogrimey


    jtsuited wrote: »
    At the risk of this sounding like condescending advice, I think you need to really sit down and spend a while getting your mixing chops together. You've clearly got the music in you, but you're really not doing any justice to your ideas with your mixes.


    I agree 100% with this, don't worry.

    Ok, fair enough there are few people doing anything experimental, but at least young producers could be progressive and new. i.e. playing around with different tempos, different drum patterns, time signatures etc, playing with modes and dissonant harmony etc.


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    #38
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    I agree 100% with this, don't worry.

    Ok, fair enough there are few people doing anything experimental, but at least young producers could be progressive and new. i.e. playing around with different tempos, different drum patterns, time signatures etc, playing with modes and dissonant harmony etc.

    I very much disagree for the simple reason that you can only fcuk about with these things when you know them. Pulling off dissonance is tricky and 99% of noob producers get it horifically wrong.

    I've been hearing the time signature thing for years, but I can't remember the last time I heard a track not in 4/4 in electronic music (as we discovered earlier the Swedish Sh1t Mafia don't work outside this ever so archaic structure).

    Experimentalism and 'creativity' are buzzwords used by companies to sell music equipment to non-musicians.
    Originality etc. will naturally come about by being good.
    Or as Jimi Hendrix put it, 'originality comes about from not being able to copy properly'.


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    #39
    electrogrimey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭electrogrimey


    Well noob producer doesn't necessarily mean noob musician. Someone could have have a degree in music theory but never have used a DAW before. They'd know about different possibilities of drum patterns and dissonance.

    Shpongle - Divine Moments of Truth changes from 4/4 to 6/8 halfway through, and it works amazingly, so I see no reason why producers couldn't experiment more with time signatures! A lot of IDM is in 7, or 5 etc. I'd like to see people write more repetitive (than IDM) tracks in different time signatures. Has 128 house in 7 been done? :P


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    #40
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    I agree 100% with this, don't worry.

    Ok, fair enough there are few people doing anything experimental, but at least young producers could be progressive and new. i.e. playing around with different tempos, different drum patterns, time signatures etc, playing with modes and dissonant harmony etc.
    Of course they can but the outcome,whilst it might be musically great,will sound ****.

    Dance music has this unfotunate habit of needing to work on the dancefloor and if it dont hit right it doesnt work

    I do get where your coming from and im not trying to stifle creativity but i think learning should outweigh creativity for the begining.

    I remember encountering Jeff on an ableton forum when he was very new to this sort of music but even though he was new he still had the technical chops to make fantastic tracks.
    His first few months were spent copying tracks he liked for the most part to understand them(I still have some of his electrohouse tracks :))


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    #41
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    perhaps, but normally what happens regarding time signatures is, a producer makes something with slightly syncopated broken beat and the non-musical journalists and fans think it's not 4/4.

    Actually, something like this always gets called experimental or whatever, because it's just slightly different than normal. nothing in the least bit experimental about it though.

    See I am actually in the middle of work and posting on the internet so I don't burn out!


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    #42
    electrogrimey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭electrogrimey


    I suppose my only objection really is people actually sending these practice-emulation tracks around to people, blogs/DJs/labels etc. My objection is to the people that are copying the tracks not as a means to get better at producing, but to have people say they're a good producer.


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    #43
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    seannash wrote: »
    His first few months were spent copying tracks he liked for the most part to understand them(I still have some of his electrohouse tracks :))

    haha, I was an electrohouse beast.....fcukin anthemic rubbish. Still can't believe some of the sh1t that I put out under Kid Handsome. Fcuk me...shockin sh1te altogether.


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    #44
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    I suppose my only objection really is people actually sending these practice-emulation tracks around to people, blogs/DJs/labels etc. My objection is to the people that are copying the tracks not as a means to get better at producing, but to have people say they're a good producer.

    again, it comes down to what I've said a million times....don't put into the public something while you're learning. It's great for the ego, but absolutely horrific for your long term reputation......
    Trust me on that!!:D


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    #45
    electrogrimey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭electrogrimey


    jtsuited wrote: »
    again, it comes down to what I've said a million times....don't put into the public something while you're learning. It's great for the ego, but absolutely horrific for your long term reputation......
    Trust me on that!!:D

    I imagine this is a hard rule to stick to! I'm grand though, not using any moniker at the moment, so if ever I get any good I can just make up one then and release under that ;)

    To be honest, the only reason I put stuff on Soundcloud etc is for the feedback thread here, and similar threads on other forums, and to get c&c from other producers/DJs I know.


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    #46
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    I suppose my only objection really is people actually sending these practice-emulation tracks around to people, blogs/DJs/labels etc. My objection is to the people that are copying the tracks not as a means to get better at producing, but to have people say they're a good producer.
    Thats true i guess but some people are genuinely happy to make those sorts of tracks(probably those that arent from a musical background:o)

    That could be the height of there musical expertise and alot of producers happily sit in those genres.
    Alot of producers i respect make vocal house but they are incredible musicians.
    Ill never forget seeing Chuck Love djing.he sang,played trumpet,guitar and did drums on a midi keyboard all whilst mixing tracks.
    Very impressive musician but alot of people would find his music cheesy


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    #47
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    I imagine this is a hard rule to stick to! I'm grand though, not using any moniker at the moment, so if ever I get any good I can just make up one then and release under that ;)

    To be honest, the only reason I put stuff on Soundcloud etc is for the feedback thread here, and similar threads on other forums, and to get c&c from other producers/DJs I know.
    didn't you have something up on some blog???

    soundcloud feedback's cool and you'll learn loads but don't let blogs get their hands on it.

    Oh and start with a moniker for the simple way tha discogs etc. works. Don't start with your real name.

    Speakin of which I'm releasing my first track on my proper name soon.


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    #48
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    jtsuited wrote: »
    haha, I was an electrohouse beast.....fcukin anthemic rubbish. Still can't believe some of the sh1t that I put out under Kid Handsome. Fcuk me...shockin sh1te altogether.
    Ha ha i do believe I own a track of yours called Epic Win.:D:D

    When you blow up im gonna blackmail you with them.

    (Actually the last time i dj'd,which was a good while ago,I played your Drunkard track)


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    #49
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    jtsuited wrote: »

    Oh and start with a moniker for the simple way tha discogs etc. works. Don't start with your real name.
    D'oh


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    #50
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    seannash wrote: »
    Ha ha i do believe I own a track of yours called Epic Win.:D:D

    When you blow up im gonna blackmail you with them.

    (Actually the last time i dj'd,which was a good while ago,I played your Drunkard track)

    Jesus man, they're the good ones. If we go way back to the Slated and Addict sh1t then we're talking proper blackmail material.


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    #51
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    seannash wrote: »
    D'oh

    you didn't think of that did you????

    Your real name is something you can't really control on any moniker you ever do, so you better make sure it's not embarassing.


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    #52
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    jtsuited wrote: »
    Jesus man, they're the good ones. If we go way back to the Slated and Addict sh1t then we're talking proper blackmail material.
    Dont worry i have them too.

    I even have a rip of your very first one with the crazy high pitched lead because you wouldnt give it to me(kept fobbing me off about not being able to find it )

    Not to mention the rock stuff:D:D


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    #53
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    jtsuited wrote: »
    you didn't think of that did you????

    Your real name is something you can't really control on any moniker you ever do, so you better make sure it's not embarassing.
    Ha ha,too late.
    :o


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    #54
    electrogrimey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭electrogrimey


    jtsuited wrote: »
    didn't you have something up on some blog???

    soundcloud feedback's cool and you'll learn loads but don't let blogs get their hands on it.

    Oh and start with a moniker for the simple way tha discogs etc. works. Don't start with your real name.

    Speakin of which I'm releasing my first track on my proper name soon.

    One of the blogs that put it up was because I sent it to my mate (who DJs) to for advice on it as he produces, and he liked it enough to blog about it. Think the other one saw it on another c&c thread.

    Why does discogs etc work better with a moniker? Not arguing, just wondering.


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    #55
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    Why does discogs etc work better with a moniker? Not arguing, just wondering.

    If you do anything under any moniker, your real name will be there as information, which means it's most likely gonna get linked with your early stuff if you did it under your own name.


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    #56
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    seannash wrote: »
    Not to mention the rock stuff:D:D

    I'll stand by that album til the day I die. But not anything I did for the 4 years after it.


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    #57
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    seannash wrote: »
    Dont worry i have them too.

    I even have a rip of your very first one with the crazy high pitched lead because you wouldnt give it to me(kept fobbing me off about not being able to find it )
    Holy sh1t man, jesus. Not alright.


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    #58
    electrogrimey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭electrogrimey


    Lessons learnt tonight:

    1) Spend a lot more time emulating tracks as a technical exercise

    2) Don't give anything to the public unless I'm 100% happy with it

    3) Use a moniker

    4) Don't try to 'push the boundaries' until I can make ****e as well as Deadmau5 can

    5) Production is going to be the reason I fail college, and I should really start this essay that's due tomorrow.


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    #59
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    the really weird thing is that me and Sean were very very very like you in our approach in the beginning (tbh it's a little bit frightening).

    Although I'd hate to give any advice that's only legitimated by us being around a little longer, learn from our mistakes. And boy, have there been plenty!


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    #60
    Android 666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Android 666


    http://www.mnartists.org/article.do?rid=161511


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    #61
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    electrogrimey wrote: »
    Lessons learnt tonight:

    1) Spend a lot more time emulating tracks as a technical exercise

    This is something you really have to do. But it's also a real pain. And getting a whole track to work is very difficult when you don't have all the skills. I've been stuck for hours trying to get something to work and driving myself nuts and still not having anything. It can get over complex. Something I have to learn is in what order to do things. Attempting to finish off tracks is a probably the best way of pushing yourself. Most people noodle around and end up with hundreds of bits and pieces but no tracks. And then don't have all the skills to finish a full track. So, it's a wasted effort.

    There's also a fatigue aspect to it. You can start off trying to copy a track you really like. By the time you're halfway through you really hate it and never want to hear the thing again.
    2) Don't give anything to the public unless I'm 100% happy with it

    See number 3.
    3) Use a moniker

    You're better off not using your really name. For several reasons. Kevin Duggan from Portlaoise just sounds so much less glamorous than Latex SXMonkey from possibly, Sudan.

    The other major point - all the stuff you do at first is completely Noobish. It may have good parts but if you don't have everything down the good parts are spoilt. The absolute last thing you want, if you get good and do something really good, is people posting all your embarrassing noob stuff all over the place. Like photographs of you in your underpants.
    4) Don't try to 'push the boundaries' until I can make ****e as well as Deadmau5 can

    We should have a Deadmau5 rip off competition. If anyone has a Deadmau5 sample pack.
    5) Production is going to be the reason I fail college, and I should really start this essay that's due tomorrow.

    Probably, but was like you were ever going to get job from what you were studying?


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