TD's unanimously vote through pay/allowance increases

kumate_champ07

voting is stupid because its nothing to do with the running of the country, its giving some chancer a job. he/she will raise money for a campaign, pay somebody to think up slogans, make promises to people that cant be kept, then when they get the job they treat it as a job with perks. the perk should be that you are representing your country, being a politican should be a respectable and honorable job.

how many politicans actually deserve respect are have done anything good for the people of this country and not the multinationals and their own pockets?

people saying if you dont vote its disrespectful to our 1916 heroes, but whats disrespectful is how Irish goverments act.

vote for cabbage or vote for brussel sprouts, what if you dont like neither?
not voting isnt a sign of laziness or not caring about the country, its a sign that the politicans dont deserve a vote!

kumate_champ07

opinion guy wrote: »

It has to be said - the stage is set for a new party to emerge should some honourable people step up

a party with no politicans, just good people with first hand knowledge of education,health,sport etc. maybe a minister for the Gaeltacht who can actually speak Irish!
politicans only care about the career ladder. the whole system needs an overhaul

Packie Bonner for sports minister!

Ave Sodalis

http://p45movement.blogspot.com/


The solution

Misanthrope

We should make our politicians wear uniforms.Orange jumpsuits would be most appropriate.That'll help them cut down on their sartorial expenditure and they won't even have to change clothes when we put them in Jail.

They should be restricted to state vehicles(Toyota Corollas maybe).And they should have to be present in the Dail for 30 hours a week minimum.

And any business interests,or investments they have are quarantined when in office.They can be catered for meagrely by the state.They are public servants not rock stars.They need to be reminded of that continually.

benjamin d

Why do they need a state vehicle? Where's mine?

benjamin d

And they should be paid by the hour; no expenses, no refunds, just a wage for each hour they are in the dail or in their office, up to 39 a week just like everyone else.

kumate_champ07

benjamin d wrote: »

And they should be paid by the hour; no expenses, no refunds, just a wage for each hour they are in the dail or in their office, up to 39 a week just like everyone else.

dont actually aggree with that. expenses should be actual 'expenses' and not a figure writen in the perks rule book. they dont just do 'work' in the dail.
Im not a fan of politicans but its not a 9-5 job, so pay should be appropriate to whats involved

benjamin d

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

dont actually aggree with that. expenses should be actual 'expenses' and not a figure writen in the perks rule book. they dont just do 'work' in the dail.
Im not a fan of politicans but its not a 9-5 job, so pay should be appropriate to whats involved

OK fair enough, but at the minute they can basically claim expenses for everything they do, I'd be surprised if they ever had to touch their actual wages! I know they have to do work outside of the office too, but a lot of people have to divide their time between the office and the 'field', for want of a better word. This could still be done in terms of hourly pay, perhaps they could be paid up to 50 hours a week and the time could be split between time in the dail and time they must spend out and about or whatever they do. A large amount of their wages should definitely be paid only after a minimum attendance in the dail though, because from what I see there's rarely more than 20 or 30 in there unless something big is happening.

yosemite_sam

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm not an advocate of violence, but these cunts should be lined up against a wall & shot.

Lap it up, they were elected by the people

Biggins

yosemite_sam wrote: »

Lap it up, they were elected by parish pump sheep!

Corrected that!

Nijmegen

As I say, problem for new politicians or parties is that the deck is stacked - parties got nearly €14m in public money last year based on their number of Dail seats, plus all the allowances etc that sitting TD's have to call on.

It costs €100k+ to get a TD elected, with much of the cost subsidised by the state during the life of any Dail.

Yet more money for themselves.

2 stroke

While I'd like to see this crowd chucked out on their ear, but there is no viable replacment for them. So I think its time we let all politicians know what we expect of them. We (those of us that voted) elected them to run this country. We didn't elect any of them into opposition or to bicker party politics in the dail.
I think its time to design a flag to tell them to get on with the job. A nice flag, with an image of a guillotine, flying from every window, every car, every lampost, might strike a little fear into their hearts.

Mardy Bum

Lots of complaining here about government and advocacies of violence but when some groups go out and kick up a fuss on the streets of the capital they are berated here.

benjamin d

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Lots of complaining here about government and advocacies of violence but when some groups go out and kick up a fuss on the streets of the capital they are berated here.

I haven't seen much advocating violence, certainly none that weren't sarcastic anyway. If you're referring to the student protest, I think everyone agrees that certain members of the crowd made a right pigs ear of the day for the rest of the protesters. You seem to be confusing kicking up a fuss with being an idiot and causing violence in the streets. I'm all for kicking up a fuss, but that doesn't mean I'm advocating violence.

2 stroke

I don't advocate violence, but I don't support a goverment that turns the riot squad on students. I think this government needs to be sent a strong warning or they will need the army on the streets.

benjamin d

The people causing the hassle were with the SWP and Sinn Fein, a lot of these types need very little encouragement to cause trouble (I don't mean all of them before I get jumped on!).

2 stroke

benjamin d wrote: »

The people causing the hassle were with the SWP and Sinn Fein, a lot of these types need very little encouragement to cause trouble (I don't mean all of them before I get jumped on!).

Wrong. The people causing the hassle were in the dail (and I do mean all of them).

benjamin d

2 stroke wrote: »

Wrong. The people causing the hassle were in the dail (and I do mean all of them).

Fair point, maybe I should have said the people causing the violence were SWP and Sinn Fein.

2 stroke

benjamin d wrote: »

Fair point, maybe I should have said the people causing the violence were SWP and Sinn Fein.

More like the people protesting violently may have been swp and sinn fein. Personally I don't know who they were, but I think riot squad on the street is red flag to a bull. No visible riot squad = no violence.

benjamin d

2 stroke wrote: »

More like the people protesting violently may have been swp and sinn fein. Personally I don't know who they were, but I think riot squad on the street is red flag to a bull. No visible riot squad = no violence.

We've gone WAY off topic here, but I think the riot squad were there to prevent any group trying to storm government buildings, which was attempted and stopped by the guards.

Chuck de Mawl

benjamin d wrote: »

Vote or don't vote, it makes absolutely no difference, and I don't think anyone can argue with that given the present state of things and the people we have 'representing' us. I vote, but never for any party. I think that might be the best way forward in terms of sending a message, but as for running the country it would never work if government was made up of independents, so we have to accept that we are going to be ruled by corrupt a$$holes indefinitely unless something drastic happens.

What a depressing post, and self-defeating attitude. The idea that voting makes no difference leads to apathy, and brings us closer to the situation where most people voting are loyal party voters, who don't vote on the issues. Abstaining
Personally, I'd quite like to see a Dail full of real independents just to see how it goes.
They might argue forever, but they'd at least be arguing the ideas, rather than just putting on a punch and Judy show.

Voting on its own won't bring any rapid changes, certainly in the absence of more regular and realistic accountability, but not voting, and especially, not engaging in any fashion is just letting them get away with it.

If you only see the options as 'accept corruption' or 'hope for some drastic rescue from out of the blue' may I ask why you don't see a third option?
Get of our knees, stand up and say "this is not good enough. Not good enough for me, or those that come after me."

judestynes

benjamin d wrote: »

We've gone WAY off topic here, but I think the riot squad were there to prevent any group trying to storm government buildings, which was attempted and stopped by the guards.

The "gardastapo" have a riot squad, they also have a fraud squad. Why isn't the commisioner deploying them as he deploys his public order squad. The first place he should deploy them is the Leinster House. Is it possibly because our agents of law enforcement have now become more like enforcers of government policy?

twinytwo

Jay D wrote: »

This is just unbelievable.

Why should the Dáil not be stormed and gotten rid of? Not trying to entice crime but can someone answer me how we will ever get rid of this crap without overthrowing and torching the bastards?

Like i said violence is the only way to end this.. burn the bsatards out...

Nijmegen

Personally, I'd quite like to see a Dail full of real independents just to see how it goes.
They might argue forever, but they'd at least be arguing the ideas, rather than just putting on a punch and Judy show.

Look to the US. Their Congress largely votes by individuals feet, regardless of their party. It's a much looser system, which is why Obama had trouble getting his agenda through even when Democrats held both houses.

However, you need to have people prepared to talk and work together for that to work, and the biggest problem they have in the US is 'earmarks' - pork spending that ends up on just about every bill to secure votes. Completely unrelated stuff, like a road building program attached to an education bill.

Taking it back to Ireland and our parish pump politics is probably dangerous...

Whatever way you shape it, like I keep saying: Electing a TD, just one, is an expensive business and the deck is really stacked against you as the parties that are there have state money to draw down to do it.

gent9662

I can't wait till a full general election, I will have my dog parked just inside the door and will let him loose on the first bloody gob****e politician that has the neck to ring my doorbell.

Mark200

Nice to see that every single person in this topic has missed the fact that this actually is not a pay rise. They can estimate whatever costs they want, that doesn't mean that TDs wages are increased.

benjamin d wrote: »

Why do they need a state vehicle? Where's mine?

They get them under recommendation from An Garda Siochana.

Fuhrer

dclane wrote: »

I can't wait till a full general election, I will have my dog parked just inside the door and will let him loose on the first bloody gob****e politician that has the neck to ring my doorbell.

Interesting question about letting your dog loose on people who come to your door.


Whats the law with that?


I did it once on travellers who came around trying to beg for money as I knew they wouldnt call the police.

But what if a human came around, what kind of trouble would I be looking at?


Mod note: Poster banned for this comment.

judestynes

Mark200 wrote: »

Nice to see that every single person in this topic has missed the fact that this actually is not a pay rise. They can estimate whatever costs they want, that doesn't mean that TDs wages are increased

It doesn't look like a cut either

Blazer

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Are you suggesting we kill the government?

absofúckinlutely

Nijmegen

Mark200 wrote: »

Nice to see that every single person in this topic has missed the fact that this actually is not a pay rise. They can estimate whatever costs they want, that doesn't mean that TDs wages are increased.

They get them under recommendation from An Garda Siochana.

They've given themselves a rise in allowances which will offset any other cuts. Meanwhile the overall budget is only coming down 1%, and the staff taking a real hit? The barmen and back office workers.

A raise in a time of cuts that leaves you with the same basic income is a raise.

As for the vehicles, if you listen to ministers security is rarely mentioned. Indeed, many of them have had occassion to travel by themselves - as Michael M said on Vincent Browne, he felt like committing suicide after driving himself round for 3 months doing his ministerial job and reverted to ministerial cars.

No security measure there, unless they were taking his shoelaces off of him getting into the car.

If there are specific threats against ministers they can react. Meanwhile, it's a free ride.

Mark200

judestynes wrote: »

It doesn't look like a cut either

That's not the point. This whole topic has been filled with anger over the idea that every single TD has voted to raise their pay, when that's just not the case at all.

I know, shock/horror over the idea of AH taking any opportunity to be angry at the Government/TDs.

Also - on the subject of cuts. The Croke Park agreement refers to all Government employees, as far as I know.

Nijmegen wrote: »

They've given themselves a rise in allowances which will offset any other cuts. Meanwhile the overall budget is only coming down 1%, and the staff taking a real hit? The barmen and back office workers.

They haven't given themselves a rise in anything, actually. An estimate is just a prediction of expected costs. If they expect that expenses will increase, then that just means they think there will be more claims. It does not change the rules on who can claim for what.

Considering there is a good chance there will be an election next year, or at least one called, then I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect there to be increased costs in promotional material for TDs.

Nijmegen wrote: »

As for the vehicles, if you listen to ministers security is rarely mentioned. Indeed, many of them have had occassion to travel by themselves - as Michael M said on Vincent Browne, he felt like committing suicide after driving himself round for 3 months doing his ministerial job and reverted to ministerial cars.

No security measure there, unless they were taking his shoelaces off of him getting into the car.

If there are specific threats against ministers they can react. Meanwhile, it's a free ride.

It doesn't matter what one minister said, it's a fact that the reason why the cars exist and are driven by senior members of An Garda Siochana is for security reasons.

Nijmegen

That's not the point. This whole topic has been filled with anger over the idea that every single TD has voted to raise their pay, when that's just not the case at all.

I know, shock/horror over the idea of AH taking any opportunity to be angry at the Government/TDs.

They're raising their unvouched allowances. Woop. This will offset any reductions they face elsewhere. The Oireachtas should be taking a much deeper hit than 1%, don't you think?

Also - on the subject of cuts. The Croke Park agreement refers to all Government employees, as far as I know.

Our leaders might consider showing some leadership in taking the biggest hit, first. Instead, all we've seen are near backbench riots any time their pay or conditions are touched, the latest sop to them being that they must swipe in to Leinster house, but not out, and somebody can do it for them to claim expenses for attending and doing their job.

They have a salary that starts north of €90k, which is the pay for directors in the SMB space, not 'middle management' as they claim.

They have allowances and expenses that need no receipts, and they've raised these to offset other reductions for themselves.

Considering there is a good chance there will be an election next year, or at least one called, then I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect there to be increased costs in promotional material for TDs.

Why, pray tell, should the state pay extra for promotional materials in an election year? This is a disadvantage to any outsider attempting to run against them, that these lads can go firing off Dail letters to shore up support. Again, robbing my money and your money.

It doesn't matter what one minister said, it's a fact that the reason why the cars exist and are driven by senior members of An Garda Siochana is for security reasons.

Bull. Ministers choose when they want to use the ministerial car in 95% of cases. Like Michael M, who drove himself round till he started feeling suicidal at seeing all the road. God love him. Not like any hard working salesmen have ever had to do the same.

They've all said themselves that they could introduce a ministerial pool to use the cars only when they need them, and use their own transport the rest of the time.

I don't see the Gardai jumping up and down and saying "Ohh no!" I also don't notice a heavy presence on rope lines and presidential protection for ministers when they're going around the place.

Why?

Because there are no credible threats to them.

The ministerial cars are a perk, like so many other perks these gombeens rob us blind for.

Mark200

Nijmegen wrote: »

They're raising their unvouched allowances. Woop. This will offset any reductions they face elsewhere. The Oireachtas should be taking a much deeper hit than 1%, don't you think?

As I've said already, they're not raising anything. They're simply attempting to predict the expenses that will be incurred. No matter what realistic cut the Oireachtas took, everyone would still be complaining.

Nijmegen wrote: »

Our leaders might consider showing some leadership in taking the biggest hit, first. Instead, all we've seen are near backbench riots any time their pay or conditions are touched, the latest sop to them being that they must swipe in to Leinster house, but not out, and somebody can do it for them to claim expenses for attending and doing their job.

They've taken pay cuts already. Not saying that it was enough, but the illustration that backbenchers are refusing to let the Government take a cent off them is just inaccurate.

Nijmegen wrote: »

They have a salary that starts north of €90k, which is the pay for directors in the SMB space, not 'middle management' as they claim.

Well they are running a country...

But what would you find an acceptable level?

Nijmegen wrote: »

Why, pray tell, should the state pay extra for promotional materials in an election year? This is a disadvantage to any outsider attempting to run against them, that these lads can go firing off Dail letters to shore up support. Again, robbing my money and your money.

Well off the top of my head, it would obviously mean that politicians don't have to depend on contributions from special interests that would then expect the elected TD to do them favours.

Of course, that's obviously unfair for outsiders. But in America, for example, a candidate who has previously gotten over 5% of a popular vote is entitled to public funding. I don't know what the situation is here.

Nijmegen wrote: »

Bull. Ministers choose when they want to use the ministerial car in 95% of cases. Like Michael M, who drove himself round till he started feeling suicidal at seeing all the road. God love him. Not like any hard working salesmen have ever had to do the same.

They've all said themselves that they could introduce a ministerial pool to use the cars only when they need them, and use their own transport the rest of the time.

Obviously they aren't going to be forced to take security. Which is why I said it was on 'recommendation' from An Garda Siochana.

Nijmegen wrote: »

I don't see the Gardai jumping up and down and saying "Ohh no!" I also don't notice a heavy presence on rope lines and presidential protection for ministers when they're going around the place.

Why?

Because there are no credible threats to them.

Ah right, so unless you give (US) presidential protection on something then there's clearly no threat. Sure, you should ring up the Gardai and tell them you think it's ridiculous that they often escort those money-carrying bank vans. CLEARLY there's no threat, since there's no heavy presence on rope lines and presidential protection when they're going around the place.

Nijmegen

As I've said already, they're not raising anything. They're simply attempting to predict the expenses that will be incurred. No matter what realistic cut the Oireachtas took, everyone would still be complaining

Go back and re-read the article. Some provisions have trebled. They've collectively raised the amount of money that they have to draw on while the rest of the country makes do with less.

They've taken pay cuts already. Not saying that it was enough, but the illustration that backbenchers are refusing to let the Government take a cent off them is just inaccurate.

Backbench TD's have had to be quietened down more than a few times over expenses reform, and let us not forget how many former ministers sitting up there offered to give back their pensions while a sitting TD.

Well they are running a country...

But what would you find an acceptable level?

Ministers are running the country. The other lot are running a constituency re-election operation for 5 years.

€60,000 for example, a 1/3 reduction fram basic, would put them in line with the likes of quality control managers in pharma, manufacturing managers, HR managers - people with staff working for them, budgets to control, well trained and with responsibility that leads back to the bottom line.

That's middle management. €90k+ for TD's is a joke.

Well off the top of my head, it would obviously mean that politicians don't have to depend on contributions from special interests that would then expect the elected TD to do them favours.

Of course, that's obviously unfair for outsiders. But in America, for example, a candidate who has previously gotten over 5% of a popular vote is entitled to public funding. I don't know what the situation is here.

Here, if you get a % of the quota you can get up to €8,000 of your election costs back. Bearing in mind that depending on constituency you'll be spending €30-€40k in the final 3 weeks, and it costs overall about €100,000+ to elect a TD.

As for funding by special interest groups, well, 3/4 of Fianna Fail's declared donations came from developers and builders in 2007 (we had the system we have today), so much for that argument.

My issue is that the system is stacked against newcomers - I agree that doing away with influences on politicians is a good thing, but our system gives huge money to incumbants and very little to newcomers, based on their electoral performance.

Ah right, so unless you give (US) presidential protection on something then there's clearly no threat. Sure, you should ring up the Gardai and tell them you think it's ridiculous that they often escort those money-carrying bank vans. CLEARLY there's no threat, since there's no heavy presence on rope lines and presidential protection when they're going around the place.

No, I am not suggesting that there is never any threat. But you know in general, if the ministers take their own transport without Gardai at other times, and they can do their jobs while using their own transport, and their main excuse for using the ministerial cars is hassle related... Well, then we don't need Gardai driving them around unless the Gardai have intelligence of a threat.

It's a big old perk, and even in the UK they're shoving ministers onto public transport these days.

They can drive themselves and have a panic button, and can this talk of 'feeling like killing myself' for having to drive themselves places, like decent, hard working, normal people.

KingMambo26

So lads, apart from posting on this forum, is anyone seriously going to do anything about it?

Chuck de Mawl

Aye, there's the problem.

Asking individuals if they are going to do anything about it.
Coming together for a common cause, when a lot of us don't particularly feel we are very connected at all.

Fair amount of inertia required to get the ball rolling, some of it organisational and logistical, and some of it psychological - in our own little heads we've been told time and time again, to know our place and not criticise the higher ups (not where they can hear us that is), and to spend more time criticising each other.

Hence pubs, internet forums and water coolers and the odd bit of satire can be full of criticism of the government. But go beyond that and you risk being condemned by the media, and those who have bought into its brainwashing.

What's the one thing we have in common? Theoretically we are the bosses of these people, and we're the ones who pay their wages and pay for their mistakes. We've heard that cliché so many times. When are we going to start acting like their bosses? Or are we worried that Pat Kenny will wag his finger at us at say 'if you don't like 'em just vote em out at the next election'. That seems to shut up quite a few folks.

Of course, the truth is we never vote anybody out .
Unlike other countries there is no recall system.
What Pat Kenny and others call 'voting out' is simply choosing someone else for what is a temporary job, renewable every few years.

I don't know about you, but I can't imagine any business in the world that would allow its employees to feck about as badly as this lot and yet not have a clause in the contract allowing the employer to fire them.

In the absence of such a mechanism, I think the place to start is by simply demanding that they go, and fast. The longer they are in, the more damage they do, and the more unpopular they get, the lower the bar is for the opposition to replace them.
However, if we set the bar ourselves, by demanding the feckers clear their desks, (and don't steal the biros), then any incoming government would take note, that the citizenry are paying attention and not just sitting idly by.

That's the idea behind p45movement.blogspot.com . To start the recovery of the country, first root out the cancer that has been there too long.

judestynes

Nijmegen wrote: »

Feckers know they can get away with it, and talk bull about their pay being linked to process and procedure... Bull.

If they want to be leaders, they shouldn't be asked to take a pay cut. They should offer it. And a lot more than what they have.

I feel helpless though, because there's a sense they'll just get back in and then go at it all again.

Eejits.

THEY WORK FOR US.... WE DON'T WORK FOR THEM. Do you know anyone who tells their employers how much their salary is, because I don't.