Landlord changed locks to evict tenants

VintageIreland

My friends signed a lease in May, last month got 28 days notice to quit, up last Wed: owners emigrated, looks like they couldnt hack it and are back with their tail between their legs, now they want their house back.
My friends both work, have a family, couldnt find suitable accommodation in the time. Told estate agent on Tues that they had nowhere, asked for extension. Agent said would check with landlord, phoned them back on Wed to say landlord wanted them out at 3pm that day. They are at work, collect kids from school and get home to find locks changed. Phone agent who washes his hands, go to police who get in contact with landlord. Landlord turns up with a gang of friends in tow, lets them in to house to collect all their belongings and move out immediately. They get followed from room to room while packing up and feel totally menaced. They have to hire a van to move their stuff and phone a friend with a spare room who agrees to put them up - otherwise they would be out on the street.
Now, in the pressure they were put under, they have no idea where they packed the lease - all their stuff is in bags and cases. So I don't know if the lease had a break clause. So lets assume the lease had a break clause and the notice to quit was validly issued, and given the landlord wants to move in himself: does the landlord have the right to change the locks and throw a family with young children out on the street, which is what effectively happened, when they have said they are not able to move.
You hear so much about scum tenants who trash a property managing to hang on rent free while the landlord has to get a notice to evict. I can't believe what this guy did was legal.

Jo King

VintageIreland wrote: »

I can't believe what this guy did was legal.

Who said it was legal?

Atlantic Dawn

Here's what it says on Threshold...

Security of Tenure

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 affords greater security of tenure to tenants in the private rented sector. The landlord can terminate the tenancy without reason during the initial six months but once the tenancy has lasted six months, the landlord will only be able to end it on specific grounds. Acceptable grounds include the tenant not complying with their obligations (e.g. not paying their rent), the landlord intending to sell the dwelling and the landlord requiring the dwelling for his own occupation or for a family member. For a complete list of the acceptable reasons, contact Threshold.
The landlord must also give the tenant written notice of termination. The period of notice will depend on the duration of the tenancy.
Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord
Less than 6 months 28 days
6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days
1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days
3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days
4 or more years 112 days

convert

Security of Tenure

The Residential Tenancies Act 2004 affords greater security of tenure to tenants in the private rented sector. The landlord can terminate the tenancy without reason during the initial six months but once the tenancy has lasted six months, the landlord will only be able to end it on specific grounds. Acceptable grounds include the tenant not complying with their obligations (e.g. not paying their rent), the landlord intending to sell the dwelling and the landlord requiring the dwelling for his own occupation or for a family member. For a complete list of the acceptable reasons, contact Threshold.
The landlord must also give the tenant written notice of termination. The period of notice will depend on the duration of the tenancy.
Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord
Less than 6 months 28 days
6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days
1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days
3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days
4 or more years 112 days

What date in May did they sign the lease? If it was late May then the landlord does not have to give a reason for ending the tenancy. But if they signed 1 May, then the landlord is entitled to give them notice is s/he requires the property for their own use.

Your friends should contact threshold or the prtb regarding the changing of the locks scenario. But (playing devil's advocate here) if you look at it from the landlord's point of view, they gave the required notice and their tenants hadn't complied with it, so they are faced with a difficult situation.

From an outsider's point of view, I don't think either side handled the situation very well. Your friends should have approached the estate agent/landlord earlier and asked for an extension. The landlord could have handled things better, too, and at least had the decency to contact your friends saying they were changing the locks if they didn't move out.

VintageIreland

Yes, I grant there are two sides, but the tenant did tell the agent they couldn't find alternative accommodation - they didn't know they wouldn't find anything until time ran out, hence the short notice (they were hoping till the last minute that they would find something). I am just wondering if entering the property while the tenants were absent and changing the locks, and basically evicting them under menacing circumstances is actually legal, whatever the feelings of either side involved. The agent was given 24 hours notice that they couldn't move out on that day. I really feel someone being evicted for non-payment of rent would have been treated better.

BostonB

Its not legal. But you'd have to take them to court AFAIK. I assume the landlord thought it was cheaper (because its quicker) to go that route than wait for the legal route to evict the tenants. I'm surprised your friends (tenants) couldn't find somewhere though. I thought there was a glut of rental places on the market.

Victor

It would look like it was an illegal eviction. Even if the tenent was there after the notice expired, the landlord can't do that.

Talk to Threshold, the PRTB and / or a solicitor.

www.threshold.ie
www.prtb.ie

robd

Victor wrote: »

It would look like it was an illegal eviction. Even if the tenent was there after the notice expired, the landlord can't do that.

Talk to Threshold, the PRTB and / or a solicitor.

www.threshold.ie
www.prtb.ie

Absolutely. The landlord cannot change the locks unless an order is granted by the court. This is a serious breach of tenancy act and if pursued by your friend they can seek compensation for illegal eviction. The tenancy board take changing of locks very seriously based on passed judgements. And these were cases where rent had not been paid for significant periods of time. Your friend had I assume paid his rent.

Contact groups as above.

jimmycrackcorm

They got a month's notice to find another house and couldn't do so?

There must be a shortage of rental properties then......

VintageIreland

They need a 4 bedroom house reasonably close to the kids school, in a small estate. Not so easy as you would think. They have had a few unpleasant experiences with anti-social and racist behaviour in the past and don't want the kids exposed to this kind of thing, so are choosy where they want to live. Even now only one house in the area they want, and it is not avail for a several weeks (I have checked on Daft and MyHome myself).

kmick

VI honestly its not the ladlords problem if they could not find suitable accomadation in the 28 days. Its very harsh of the ladlord who could have given them another month though.

seamus

I do lose a little sympathy for them. They knew why the lease was being ended, yet they waited until less than 24 hours before the lease was up to notify the agent that they had nowhere to go, and clearly were not even prepared to move - they had nothing packed up.

If they were having difficulty finding suitable long-term accomodation, they should have found short-term accomodation (a 1 or 2 month lease) while they continued their search. It's really not the landlord's problem that they're picky about where they live.

But that was very crap what the landlord did. As said, it's not legal and they should go the legal route to take action against the landlord.

djimi

kmick wrote: »

VI honestly its not the ladlords problem if they could not find suitable accomadation in the 28 days. Its very harsh of the ladlord who could have given them another month though.

Im afraid I have to agree with this. The landlord may have acted like an absolute prick, and changing locks may be excessive/illegal, but they were given notice and should be expected to vacate the house on time. Why didnt they raise their issues with the landlord the day they were told they had to move, rather than leaving it until the last minute? Saying they didnt know they wouldnt find anything until the last minute is not really an excuse.

Dont get me wrong, I sympathise with them and they were treated very badly, but they didnt really help themselves.

BostonB

Can only agree with the above. Why tenants can't keep a landlord informed is
beyond me.

quozl

Please ignore those above who said it was legal.

That quote from threshold is for a part 4 tenancy. If they signed a lease then it is almost certain that they have a fixed term lease, and the landlord cannot kick them out even to move in themselves.

Contact threshold.

Convert is assuming it is a Part 4 tenancy which is very unlikely. It would be part 4 if there was no lease signed, or a fixed term lease had expired.

It's unhelpful to give incorrect advice to people who need help. If you don't know what a Part 4 tenancy is, and the differences between that and a fixed term lease, then you cannot give helpful advice on notice to quit.

Once again, contact Threshold and then the PRTB (which I expect Threshold to advise). I would expect the Landlord to be hit with a major fine.

Can only agree with the above. Why tenants can't keep a landlord informed is beyond me.

Moronic. Landlord illegally evicts tenant who don't know their rights, and you're blaming the tenant? Cop on.

Dempo1

It is absolutely not legal for a landlord either in a private residence or commercial property to forcibly evict a tenant especially by way of changing locks. The landlord is required in law to seek a court order for eviction even in the case where the Tenant has continued to pay rent. The landlord in this case as made a serious error of Judgment and hopefully the tenant in question has photographs, proof rent was paid etc. A quick trip to a solicitor will soon reap compensation as it seems to be a black and white case. The landlord in question may find it was cheaper to seek a court order rather than act in this disgraceful manner.

djimi

Quozl it depends on when the tenant signed the lease, but unless they did so in the first week of May then the landlord is well within their rights to ask them to leave on 28 days notice. If they did sign the lease in the first week of May then they should have been given 35 days notice.

Even with a fixed term lease, the landlord is perfectly entitled to ask them to leave if they wish to move into the property themselves. The only question mark is over how much notice they should have given.

quozl

Djimi, those notice periods are for Part 4 leases. Please provide a reference for a landlord being able to evict someone on a fixed term lease in order to move in themselves.

For example, Threshold disagree with you.

4. Can the landlord terminate a lease early?
The landlord can only terminate a lease before its end date if the contract contains a 'break clause' which allows both parties to end the lease prematurely. If there is no break clause, a lease can only be ended if the tenant is in breach of an obligation.

Threshold even point out that those listed periods do not apply to fixed term leases http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=256

This is a common misconception people have.

Here is another one that people have

5. Can the landlord sell the property?
Unless there is a break clause, the landlord must sell the house with the tenant living there. The new owner is also bound by the lease.

VintageIreland

Well, you can see why people in this country are so fixated on owning their own home, compared to the continent. I personally don't think 4 weeks is enough time to house hunt when you both are working full-time. There are only so many houses you can view in a weekend, lots of which will be unsuitable or won't be avail when you need, or the landlord wants to interview more tenants so you don't know if you have the house or not - so you are left waiting days to find out and have to start again. It's different for singles who know they are going to be moving on. For a family hoping for a place to settle long-term they have to take a lot more into consideration.

D3PO

VintageIreland wrote: »

Well, you can see why people in this country are so fixated on owning their own home, compared to the continent. I personally don't think 4 weeks is enough time to house hunt when you both are working full-time. There are only so many houses you can view in a weekend, lots of which will be unsuitable or won't be avail when you need, or the landlord wants to interview more tenants so you don't know if you have the house or not - so you are left waiting days to find out and have to start again. It's different for singles who know they are going to be moving on. For a family hoping for a place to settle long-term they have to take a lot more into consideration.

get out the violins.

Whats wrong with looking at properties in the evening ? you could easily look at 2-3 every evening and 5-6 on a Saturday and thats after already weeding down the potentials online during the day.

Do you honestly think anybody believes 28 days isnt enough to find somewhere ? Christ they could have taken time off work, and if no days left called in sick, or taken unpaid leave if they had to.

What the landlord might have done may be illegal, but I have no sympathy for your friends, they basically didnt bother their backsides trying to resolve their situation.

djimi

Im in work so I cant really go digging for a link but its been on both my last two leases (fixed term) that the landlord can ask me to leave under certain circumstances, one of which is that they need the property for themselves. The notice times are as Convert has posted.

quozl

Exactly, Djimi. Your leases had to add a break clause with that as the condition because that is not the legal position.

I've never had a lease with that break condition by the way, it's unusual. I wouldn't accept one.

seamus

quozl wrote: »

I've never had a lease with that break condition by the way, it's unusual. I wouldn't accept one.

It's usually an indicator that the landlord has only temporarily vacated the property (e.g. to move abroad). It would be more common on house rentals than apartment rentals.

If I were renting a large property for a family, I would be very strict on the lease terms, especially in this market. Minimum 60 days notice and no additional break clauses.

pooch90

djimi wrote: »

Quozl it depends on when the tenant signed the lease, but unless they did so in the first week of May then the landlord is well within their rights to ask them to leave on 28 days notice. If they did sign the lease in the first week of May then they should have been given 35 days notice.

Even with a fixed term lease, the landlord is perfectly entitled to ask them to leave if they wish to move into the property themselves. The only question mark is over how much notice they should have given.

Absolutely incorrect.
A fixed term lease is legally binding and unless there was a landlord coming back clause then the ll cannot kick them out (once they are still covered by the lease).

Asides from that a ll may NEVER change locks. Get legal advice and go for damages.

VintageIreland

D3PO wrote: »

get out the violins.

Whats wrong with looking at properties in the evening ? you could easily look at 2-3 every evening and 5-6 on a Saturday and thats after already weeding down the potentials online during the day.

Do you honestly think anybody believes 28 days isnt enough to find somewhere ? Christ they could have taken time off work, and if no days left called in sick, or taken unpaid leave if they had to.

What the landlord might have done may be illegal, but I have no sympathy for your friends, they basically didnt bother their backsides trying to resolve their situation.

Would this be a landlord by any chance? certainly someone so cushioned from reality that they think everyone can afford to take unpaid time off work or drag young kids around every night looking at houses.

robd

An awful lack of sympathy on this thread for a tenant who has been badly caught out by the completely ridiculous tenancy system we have in this country and a totally unprofessional landlord. The person would have singed a fixed term lease for probably 1 year and only 5 months in and they're getting boot through no fault of their own.

Facts (regardless of anything else):
Changing locks is illegal.
Arriving with a group of mates is intimidation and also illegal.

Finding 3/4 bed houses in good areas of Dublin is very difficult at the moment (not sure where tenant is). Both finding accommodation and moving is a stressful business with no kids so I can't imagine what it's like with kids and schools involved. I'm sure tenant was panicked so some slack should be cut for not keeping communications open.

It would be interesting to know whether this was a fixed term lease with no exit clause or not as this would be even more illegal. Regardless though, due process was not followed.

It would be worth quickly trying to butter up agent and get copy of lease if it indeed can't be found. Sooner rather than later given situation may deteriorate.

BostonB

VintageIreland wrote: »

Would this be a landlord by any chance? certainly someone so cushioned from reality that they think everyone can afford to take unpaid time off work or drag young kids around every night looking at houses.

Theres two of them and they have friends. Theres no need to drag the kids anywhere, and no one works 24/7. Thats reality.

BostonB

robd wrote: »

An awful lack of sympathy on this thread for a tenant who has been badly caught out by the completely ridiculous tenancy system we have in this country and a totally unprofessional landlord. The person would have singed a fixed term lease for probably 1 year and only 5 months in and they're getting boot through no fault of their own.

Facts (regardless of anything else):
Changing locks is illegal.
Arriving with a group of mates is intimidation and also illegal.

Finding 3/4 bed houses in good areas of Dublin is very difficult at the moment (not sure where tenant is). Both finding accommodation and moving is a stressful business with no kids so I can't imagine what it's like with kids and schools involved. I'm sure tenant was panicked so some slack should be cut for not keeping communications open.

It would be interesting to know whether this was a fixed term lease with no exit clause or not as this would be even more illegal. Regardless though, due process was not followed.

It would be worth quickly trying to butter up agent and get copy of lease if it indeed can't be found. Sooner rather than later given situation may deteriorate.

Almost everyone has said the landlord is in the wrong and illegal. So how is that a lack of sympathy?

How was the tenant caught out by the tenancy system? and how is it completely ridiculous? What legally can the landlord do if the tenant refuses to go, and pay rent?

Sorry but its 2010, I don't see how anyone can go a month without communication. Not in that situation.

Whats it got to do with schools? Unless they live a palce where theeres no other houses and only get one 20 miles away. A detail which would have been included at the start if that was the problem.

D3PO

VintageIreland wrote: »

Would this be a landlord by any chance? certainly someone so cushioned from reality that they think everyone can afford to take unpaid time off work or drag young kids around every night looking at houses.

no Im not Im just not somebody who thinks things should be handed to them. The excuses to not find something are a joke. Your friends are lazy end of story.

why the hell do they need to "drag the kids around" FFS theres 2 of them 1 minds the kids the other do the house search. Hardly rocket science.

As for taking unpaid leave, if I had to I would but it would be the bottom of a long list of options.

since your friends are lazy let me spell them out in order

1. Search on evenings
2. Search at the weekend
3. Take time of work to search
4. If no holidays, cant afford to take unpaid leave call in sick and search
5. take unpaid leave and search

face it your friends could easily find somewhere in 28 days they jsut didnt bother their arse.

robd

D3PO wrote: »

no Im not Im just not somebody who thinks things should be handed to them. The excuses to not find something are a joke. Your friends are lazy end of story.

why the hell do they need to "drag the kids around" FFS theres 2 of them 1 minds the kids the other do the house search. Hardly rocket science.

As for taking unpaid leave, if I had to I would but it would be the bottom of a long list of options.

since your friends are lazy let me spell them out in order

1. Search on evenings
2. Search at the weekend
3. Take time of work to search
4. If no holidays, cant afford to take unpaid leave call in sick and search
5. take unpaid leave and search

face it your friends could easily find somewhere in 28 days they jsut didnt bother their arse.

You've no idea what you're talking about. There is an extreme shortage of quality family homes (3/4 beds) to rent in quality inner Dublin suburbs. No shortage of 1/2 bed apartments though. Both sets of people I know who moved in the last 3 months spent 6-8 weeks looking and it was slim pickings. Had to jump on what they got. Both had overlaps (double rent) between moving out and moving in. Neither where in a situation where they were forced to move either, they where trading up.

TwoShedsJackson

VintageIreland wrote: »

They need a 4 bedroom house reasonably close to the kids school, in a small estate.

That sounds more like what they want, rather than what they need - given their current situation they're going to have to compromise on some part of it.