How are so many Non EU nationals working in Ireland?

not yet

View wrote: »

It was probably Dell moving its money from Limerick to its plant in Poland, or maybe, AIB moving its money to Bank Zachodni WBK (its Polish Bank), so it could appear broke when looking for bail-out money from the government.

Yeah thats probably it....

The approx figure leaving the country each year is 6-8 billion, imagine the amount of vat alone that is being lost,the business being lost at a local level. I'm aware that if you earn a wage it's your's to do with as you please but how does it make sense that billions are going abroad when we are going over the cliff..........

Rubik.

The number of non-EU nationals working in Ireland fell by 41% last year. Only 7,942 employment permits were issued in 2009, half of those were renewals for people already working here. Compared to 13,565 granted in 2008 and 23,604 in 2007.

New restrictions on the issue of the permits were brought in June 2009, which meant employers had to advertise for longer to try and find Irish or EU nationals to fill the positions before offering a job, or getting a visa reissued for a non-EU national. And permits are no longer issued for most jobs with salaries less than 30,000 euro.

Boskowski

not yet wrote: »

The problem is there for all to see.... this country is not big enough to sustain 400,000 non-nationals simple!!!

So what are you proposing? Round them up and throw them out? Spray 'don't buy from foreigners' on their shops?

mikemac

If I were a journalist I'd consider doing some research of the English language schools for Asian students.

On a student visa you are only supposed to work 20 hours a weeks, it's abused.
And some of these schools exist pretty much only on paper.

It's been covered before by national papers, it could be done again, it's pretty much a back door way to a Visa

senordingdong wrote: »

Because they will do work that Irish people turn their nose up at,

Maybe?
In Celtic Tiger era I worked in a hotel with 3 Irish people out of 27 staff. When staff are talking in their own language it can be uncomfortable

beagle001

English is the main language spoken in Ireland,next time you are in that situation again ask them to stop as it is a form of harassment and should be taken up with hr.
Worked with 16 diff nationalities in Oz and only English was allowed or you would be brought up to hr on it.
Proper order it is too,you are not to know what they are saying as it's like code or bullying.

senordingdong

Dorcha wrote: »

This is a silly remark. You seem to be saying that everyone on the dole at the moment is a waster. You must have been busy going around counting all of those "hundreds of thousands of Irish wasters". How do you find the time to hold down a job yourself?

No, yours is a silly remark.
I never said that everybody on the dole was a waster.

Dorcha

senordingdong wrote: »

No, yours is a silly remark.
I never said that everybody on the dole was a waster.

No. I didn't say you said it. I said you seemed to say it. What you wrote implied it. If your intention was different, you didn't make yourself clear.

Guy:Incognito

jon1981 wrote: »

I would say its partly because down to the FACT that Irish people wouldn't do the jobs the foreign nationals were doing during the boom years... working in mcdonalds, spar etc and its now Irish ppl are getting on their high horse when those jobs previously were not good enough now they are flocking to them in hundreds... and the reason they are still around is because of lot of these jobs were and are still low paying and required ...

Unless all these irish people were sitting on the dole rather than doing these jobsthen what's the issue? Should people not take a better/higher paid job if they can get it? We have a certain amount of Irish people and eu nationals in the country if there's a surplus of jobs they have to be filled. What about any non eu nationals in highly paid jobs? Were Irish people too lazy tomtake them aswell?

senordingdong

Dorcha wrote: »

No. I didn't say you said it. I said you seemed to say it. What you wrote implied it. If your intention was different, you didn't make yourself clear.

Well I didn't imply that everyone on the dole is a waster.

I implied that every waster is on the dole.

Spacedog

just because someone looks Asian, doesn't mean they are not irish,

IF
-It's a fact that your parents ate chineese food when they were teenagers.
AND
-It's a fact that that chineese food was made by emigrants to Ireland from China in the 1970s and 80s,
AND
-It's a possibility that these chineese people had children while living here
THEN
-You have a Chineese person who is a full Irish Citizen, went to an Irish school, learned bad Irish, played GAA in PE, learned about 1916 in history class and is as Irish as you or me by any measure.

I love the look on the faces of confused people when they hear a 'non-national' rip the piss out of them in their own accent!

As for me, I'm not prejudiced against any race, sexual orientation, sex, colour or creed. I am however extremly prejudiced against others who display hatred or superority based on such superficial things, to the point where in extreme cases violence would be acceptable.

basically prejudiced against racists.

We are all citizens of the world, and should have the right to explore the planet and to work anywhere for an honest wage to pay our way. As an imigrant myself working and living overseas, I'd love nothing more for someone like the people in this thread to have the balls explain to my face, why I can't work in their beloved country because I'm a paddy (or any other nationality for that matter), I'd dance on their heads and I'd be right to do so.

Dorcha

Spacedog wrote: »

just because someone looks Asian, doesn't mean they are not irish,

IF
-It's a fact that your parents ate chineese food when they were teenagers.
AND
-It's a fact that that chineese food was made by chineese emigrants to Ireland from China in the 1970s and 80s,
AND
-It's a possibility that these chineese poeple had children while living here
THEN
-You have a Chineese person who is an irish Citizen, went to an Irish school, learned bad Irish, played GAA in PE, learned about 1916 in history class and is as Irish as you or me by any measure.

I love the look on the faces of confused people chen they hear a 'non-national' rip the piss out of them in their own accent!

As for me, I'm not prejudiced against any race, sexual orientation, sex, colour or creed. I am however extremly prejudiced against others who display hatred or superority based on such superficial things, to the point where in extreme cases violence would be acceptable.

basically prejudiced against racists.

We are all citizens of the world, and should have the right to explore the planet and to work anywhere for an honest wage to pay our way. As an imigrant myself working and living overseas, I'd love nothing more for some like the people in this thread to have the balls explain to me why I can't work in their beloved country because I'm a paddy (or any other nationality for that matter), I'd dance on their heads and I'd be right to do so.

We're all well aware that there are people of foreign ancestry living and working in Ireland. We’re all well aware that you will get certain yobbos (as in any country – Ireland is not unique in this) abusing such people.

Let me make my own position clear. If people of other nationalities have made their home in this country, I have no problem with them applying for jobs and working; they have to make a living like everyone else. I have no problem with people sending money home to their own countries. (The Irish did it from the USA back in the fifties.) They are, for the most part, only supporting their own families.


I do have a problem with Irish employers employing foreign nationals in preference to Irish nationals. I have seen this happen and it’s racism in reverse. I do have a problem if foreign nationals are signing on the dole here, yet living in their own country. I have no personal experience of this, but the recent proposals by the Department of Social Welfare (or whatever fancy name they give it those days) seem to suggest that it’s happening. I do have a problem with the Irish government paying children’s allowances to children who are not Irish citizens and have never lived in Ireland. Surely it’s up to the government of the country they’re living in to do this?

JamesBond2010

this thread is very racist

to all the People complaining about foreign nationals
Your car is Japanese. Your beer is German. Your wine is Spanish. Your democracy
is Greek. Your coffee is Colombian. Your tea is Chinese. Your watch is
Swiss. Your fashion is French. Your shirt is Indian. Your shoes are Thai.
Your radio is Korean. Your vodka is Russian. And then you
............complain your neighbor is an immigrant? Pull yo...urself together!

finnfinn

Dorcha wrote: »

We're all well aware that there are people of foreign ancestry living and working in Ireland. We’re all well aware that you will get certain yobbos (as in any country – Ireland is not unique in this) abusing such people.

Let me make my own position clear. If people of other nationalities have made their home in this country, I have no problem with them applying for jobs and working; they have to make a living like everyone else. I have no problem with people sending money home to their own countries. (The Irish did it from the USA back in the fifties.) They are, for the most part, only supporting their own families.


I do have a problem with Irish employers employing foreign nationals in preference to Irish nationals. I have seen this happen and it’s racism in reverse. I do have a problem if foreign nationals are signing on the dole here, yet living in their own country. I have no personal experience of this, but the recent proposals by the Department of Social Welfare (or whatever fancy name they give it those days) seem to suggest that it’s happening. I do have a problem with the Irish government paying children’s allowances to children who are not Irish citizens and have never lived in Ireland. Surely it’s up to the government of the country they’re living in to do this?

My wife is non-eea. Since she was entitled to work here she found it hard to get work. She cannot understand why we seem to have more and more non Irish and non EEA persons taking jobs. I thought McDowell was wrong to change the law on citizenship but when I see people milking the system and laughing at our stupidity I begin to wonder.
I have met very few Irish people who prefer to be on the dole to working. Every WPP job has hundreds of applicants even though most of them are scams. In a local shop an employee from Iraq? told my wife the manager was unavailable, took her application and binned it as she left. I see an Irish girl working there today. First in 6years since an Iraqi manager moved in.

Dorcha

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

this thread is very racist

to all the People complaining about foreign nationals
Your car is Japanese. Your beer is German. Your wine is Spanish. Your democracy
is Greek. Your coffee is Colombian. Your tea is Chinese. Your watch is
Swiss. Your fashion is French. Your shirt is Indian. Your shoes are Thai.
Your radio is Korean. Your vodka is Russian. And then you
............complain your neighbor is an immigrant? Pull yo...urself together!

I don't think so. Is it the situation now that people can't express their views for fear of being labeled racist? That's not very healthy, either.

Whiskeyjack

Dorcha wrote: »

I don't think so. Is it the situation now that people can't express their views for fear of being labeled racist? That's not very healthy, either.

If your view is racist, then no you can't express it without being labelled as such. Same way as I can't someones balls in my mouth for money without being 'labelled' a prostitute.

View

Dorcha wrote: »

I do have a problem with the Irish government paying children’s allowances to children who are not Irish citizens and have never lived in Ireland. Surely it’s up to the government of the country they’re living in to do this?[/COLOR]

No, it is not. Childern's Allowances is paid based on the parent's circumstances, not the child's.

Essentially, the governments of the EU member states were faced with two possibilities:
i) they paid childern's allowances based on where the parent lived (and ignored the issue of where the child lived), or,
ii) they paid childern's allowances based on where the child lived (and ignored the issue of where the parent lived).

Since the parent, not the child, is the tax-payer (presuming they are employed), the second option could have opened the door to a scenario where Mary and/or Magda - stay at home parents - live in Ireland with childern, while Sean and/or Jan are working and paying taxes in another EU member state (e.g. the UK or France). In that second scenario, the tax-payers in Ireland end up paying for the childern's allowance whereas the UK or French governments collect taxes from Sean and/or Jan and don't have to pay out any benefits.

In the first instance - the one the member states opted for - there is a direct link between where the tax-payer works and pays taxes and payments by the relevant member state of associated benefits.

not yet

Spacedog wrote: »

just because someone looks Asian, doesn't mean they are not irish,

IF
-It's a fact that your parents ate chineese food when they were teenagers.
AND
-It's a fact that that chineese food was made by emigrants to Ireland from China in the 1970s and 80s,
AND
-It's a possibility that these chineese people had children while living here
THEN
-You have a Chineese person who is a full Irish Citizen, went to an Irish school, learned bad Irish, played GAA in PE, learned about 1916 in history class and is as Irish as you or me by any measure.

I love the look on the faces of confused people when they hear a 'non-national' rip the piss out of them in their own accent!

As for me, I'm not prejudiced against any race, sexual orientation, sex, colour or creed. I am however extremly prejudiced against others who display hatred or superority based on such superficial things, to the point where in extreme cases violence would be acceptable.

basically prejudiced against racists.

We are all citizens of the world, and should have the right to explore the planet and to work anywhere for an honest wage to pay our way. As an imigrant myself working and living overseas, I'd love nothing more for someone like the people in this thread to have the balls explain to my face, why I can't work in their beloved country because I'm a paddy (or any other nationality for that matter), I'd dance on their heads and I'd be right to do so.

Ah...isn't it a pity you just fcuked up your argument at the very end by dancing on peoples heads...nice one.

Bill2673

not yet wrote: »

Irish indo last week stated....1.5 billion euro was tranferred to one polish bank in 09'.... now people can spout what they want about this,and that, the bottom line is people are sick to the back teeth of hearing houses being bought in latvia etc on welfare-childerns allowance received here.

I think it's a joke that people cannot pay bills or mortgages and billions are being taken overseas each year...no doubt we'll have the are sure we did it brigade or my favourite ah sure they took the jobs we wouldn't do etc etc............we are a small country of 4 million, convert the same amount of non nationals here to england or usa and it would be 5 million in england and 50 million in the states.

Haha 5 million in England......which is about the same amount of Irish that live over there.

I find this stuff comical.

I wonder were there 50 houses bought in Latvia on the back of welfare payments in Ireland. 100 maybe?

(And by the way.....the irish indo is a reliable source now all of a sudden?).

Can't have your cake and eat it folks.

beagle001

Yes I agree that employers are favouring non eu and eastern Europeans over many Irish for min wage work.
This is a problem with the amount unemployed we definitely should base the selection on the quality of the candidate.
My wife is from outside the EU and she finds it very hard to get employment in here field,the jobs are not being advertised and if a vacancy comes up it is snapped up by a friend of a friend of a person working in the place.
Many times it's eastern europens or Indian as the boss thinks,there decent workers and he/she thinks it takes the hassle out of interviewing.
It's entirely up to any person what they do with the money they earned here,many min wage jobs are physically draining and they worked hard for that cash,why should they be forced to keep it here when an opportunity arises elsewhere.
It's the same as investing in your future,I for one have worked in many countries and always saved,taken my cash with me when I move on.
I have also been served by very moody Irish and brilliant sound Irish,it's the same everywhere.
There was a massive flaw in the system and no planning at all into the the immigration here in the early noughties,hopefully this will change.

Bill2673

beagle001 wrote: »

I have also been served by very moody Irish and brilliant sound Irish,it's the same everywhere.
There was a massive flaw in the system and no planning at all into the the immigration here in the early noughties,hopefully this will change.

I think your last point is a fair one. People who came here were entitled to do so. They didn't spoof their way in, by and large, or overstay visas. They are entitled to be here legally, and they are entitled to receive social welfare if they have paid their stamps etc. Thats my understanding of it anyway.

If we screwed up by allowing foolishly allowing that, then our bad, not theirs.

If as a country we are going to go back on our word and screw people over in the process, then I would start with the bondholders, particularly at the banks before I start hitting the little people.

Dorcha

View wrote: »

No, it is not. Childern's Allowances is paid based on the parent's circumstances, not the child's.

Essentially, the governments of the EU member states were faced with two possibilities:
i) they paid childern's allowances based on where the parent lived (and ignored the issue of where the child lived), or,
ii) they paid childern's allowances based on where the child lived (and ignored the issue of where the parent lived).

Since the parent, not the child, is the tax-payer (presuming they are employed), the second option could have opened the door to a scenario where Mary and/or Magda - stay at home parents - live in Ireland with childern, while Sean and/or Jan are working and paying taxes in another EU member state (e.g. the UK or France). In that second scenario, the tax-payers in Ireland end up paying for the childern's allowance whereas the UK or French governments collect taxes from Sean and/or Jan and don't have to pay out any benefits.

In the first instance - the one the member states opted for - there is a direct link between where the tax-payer works and pays taxes and payments by the relevant member state of associated benefits.

I still think that option 2 is the best and most just one. Option 1 seems to consider that children cannot be considered human beings on their own, but only as an extension of their parents.

You are saying, I think, that option 1 is the most economically expedient one. I would have no problem paying for the children’s upkeep if they were living in Ireland. A country is responsible for the people living within its borders. It is certainly not responsible for those living outside it, and no verbal gymnastics by the EU (EEC, EC), can change that.

Dorcha

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

If your view is racist, then no you can't express it without being labelled as such. Same way as I can't someones balls in my mouth for money without being 'labelled' a prostitute.

The trouble is, people whose views aren't racist are being labeled as such, because their views differ from the "politicially correct".


How do you define "racism"? I would be interested to know.

Dorcha

senordingdong wrote: »

Well I didn't imply that everyone on the dole is a waster.

I implied that every waster is on the dole.

But you also said "hundreds of thousands" of wasters were on the dole. Now I don't know how many people exactly are on the dole, but I do know that its in the hundreds of thousands. That would seem to imply that most of the people on the dole were wasters.

Whiskeyjack

Dorcha wrote: »

The trouble is, people whose views aren't racist are being labeled as such, because their views differ from the "politicially correct".


How do you define "racism"? I would be interested to know.

In the case of this thread I'd class them as irrational views formed based on racial prejudices, like the people here saying "all irish are lazy workers" or "Irish social welfare money is being used to build latvian houses" and citing 3rd hand anectotal evidence as proof. Just saying be wary of jumping on the "political correctness gone mad" bandwagon and look at how nonsensical some of this **** is.

Dorcha

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

In the case of this thread I'd class them as irrational views formed based on racial prejudices, like the people here saying "all irish are lazy workers" or "Irish social welfare money is being used to build latvian houses" and citing 3rd hand anectotal evidence as proof. Just saying be wary of jumping on the "political correctness gone mad" bandwagon and look at how nonsensical some of this **** is.

Fair enough. I would think of it as discrimination against a person because of their race or colour. I try to avoid bandwagons, but there are so many around those days that a person is in danger of being run down by them.

View

Dorcha wrote: »

I still think that option 2 is the best and most just one. Option 1 seems to consider that children cannot be considered human beings on their own, but only as an extension of their parents.

As I said, the governments has two options and choose option 1 probably because the consensus was it was either fairer and/or more administratively convenient for them.

Childern ARE basically considered as extensions of their parents in terms of childerns allowance. It is paid to the parent and - as it is cash - there is no obligation on the parents to actually spend it on the childern at all. In addition, the parents must meet the Habitual Residence criteria here, even if the child concerned was born here and has lived all their short existence here.

Dorcha wrote: »

You are saying, I think, that option 1 is the most economically expedient one. I would have no problem paying for the children’s upkeep if they were living in Ireland. A country is responsible for the people living within its borders. It is certainly not responsible for those living outside it, and no verbal gymnastics by the EU (EEC, EC), can change that.

It IS the responsibility of the relevant EU member state to make those payments as that is the relevant law. The member states had a choice as to which option they went for and made their choice.

You can argue that they made the wrong choice but the notice board would have as many people complaining if they went for the other option as people would be up in arms saying "What the other member state gets the taxes and we pay out the benefits?"

not yet

Bill2673 wrote: »

Haha 5 million in England......which is about the same amount of Irish that live over there.

I find this stuff comical.

I wonder were there 50 houses bought in Latvia on the back of welfare payments in Ireland. 100 maybe?

(And by the way.....the irish indo is a reliable source now all of a sudden?).

Can't have your cake and eat it folks.

What cake is that then......the same cake IBEC and ISME have been gorging themselves on since 2000, having lobbied harney to bring in cheap labour, the fat cats made money on the backs of non nationals for years, now the same fat cats want a race to the bottom on the minimum wage, and non nationals are happy to oblige.

canttakeajoke

Well these Asian's might just be Irish? did you ask them if they were born here, we did take boat people after Vietnam for example, some of these lads are here since the last recession. To be honest most of the Chinese girls i know working in shops are hot and use there face to smile which some of our European workers could learn from.
Anyway what are you worrying about, maybe they would love to swap with you and get €196 on the dole rather than €200 working all week.

"Dont covet your neighbours goods"

senordingdong

Dorcha wrote: »

But you also said "hundreds of thousands" of wasters were on the dole. Now I don't know how many people exactly are on the dole, but I do know that its in the hundreds of thousands. That would seem to imply that most of the people on the dole were wasters.

Dole figures were within the hunderds of thousands threshold even before the recession.

tatli_lokma

I would just like to make a few points in relation to this....

from my own personal experience, it is NOT easy to get a visa as a non-national. Being married to an Irish spouse is not a guarantee of a visa, and you are not automatically granted a work permit (stamp 4) just because you get residency (which is thick, as if you are allowed to stay here, you should be allowed to work....makes no sense to encourage people not to work). although it is unusual not to get a permit when you get residency it does happen, and in order to get residency in the first place it is not a simple rubber stamp exercise.

Second off, it is often not easy for non-nationals to get higher level jobs, again this is from my own personal experience. Even with perfect written and oral english and good professional experience in their own country, many non-nationals can only get jobs in minimum wage service industry jobs. It is not that they choose to take these jobs from 'Irish' people - for many these are the only jobs they get a chance in. My own hubby could only get a low level hotel job initially, as he had no Irish work experience. These types of jobs were the only ones who would give him a chance with no Irish work experience. After a few months working in a hotel in Ireland he reapplied for many of the professional jobs and is now no longer in the service industry and is in a higher level job.

Thirdly, the reason a lot of employers prefer non-nationals over Irish is because they can take advantage of them easier. Not all employers I admit, but there are a large number of employers out there, partic in service industries who know that they get away with more with non nationals - again I have seen this from experience. And this is only more likely to increase in times of recession where businessess are under threat. Only for me advising my hubby that on several occasions the hotel he worked for were breaking the law, he would have been rightly taken advantage of. even at that, he often still chose to toe the line just in order to keep his job - he worked hours he was not paid for, didn't get breaks, they broke H&S laws...I could go on, but you get the picture.

Many non-nationals, particularly the younger ones with no family here will work unsociable hours, won't push the issues of holiday entitlements, H&S etc - this means that for some unscrupulous employers they make ideal workers. Better that than an Irish person who knows their rights.

Not all Irish who refuse low wage jobs do it cos they would rather be on the dole - for many its just a case that they won't allow themselves to be taken advantage of. I know that I wouldn't put up with some of the crap I have seen foreign workers put up with. and certainly not for €7.65 an hour and no benefits. And its not that I am work shy - I have gone above and beyond for my employers and would do again, but it is appreciated and I am not taken advantage of.

That is the difference for many Irish people - its not the job that is below them, but they know their rights and they don't want to be treated like a slave.

Its not simply that Irish are too lazy or that foreigners have a stronger work ethic.

Bill2673

Little Ted wrote: »

I would just like to make a few points in relation to this....

That is a useful and well written post, definitely one of the better contributions I've seen on forums following societal issues on this website (IMHO).

i_love_toast

doolox wrote: »

If you want change you should boycott stores which hire too many non-local people and only go to stores that hire Irish people.

Knowing that the Irish love to complain and will do nothing effective about a situation this is not likely to happen.

On my own observations a lot of the bigger stores have noticeably reduced their obviously foreign looking checkout operators and a lot of local school leavers are being taken on than would have been the case previously.

I find dealing with the foreigners a mixed bag, some are downright rude and make shopping an unpleasant experience, others are more cheerful and happy than the general run and others are much the same as the regular shop assistants.

The atmosphere in Lidl and Dunnes I find very repressive and I would say thay are probably very difficult and stressful places to work in. Other places I'd say are a bit better such as Tesco's or Superquinn where the management at least appear human.

I find the smaller convenience stores a very mixed bag, some are dominated by Chinese looking people with not an Irish person in sight, others all Indian. Pakistani, etc. It looks a bit suspicious when all the staff in a workplace are of the one race.....possibly family owned and run???? How many Irish places would get away with that without some complaint???? I find this happens a lot in inner city Dublin, not so much on the suburbs.

Well i work in a local grocery store and my employer just takes on local Irish lads and ladies who grew up in the area and are mostly in college. This has nothing to do with non irish nationalities but its just he likes to provide local jobs for local people. At the end up the day he provides 15 local irish jobs who live in the community. This is EXTREMELY important these days for working class areas. For a local lads to work in his/her locality during college it puts off the large strain on the parents struggling to pay their fee's etc.

My younger brother however who is now 18 years old could not get summer jobs for the past two years and to be honest it is mainly do to non nationals working in stores in the city and has to rely on my families single income to pay for school/books/clothes/ socializing etc. I honestly think it is very very important for employers to employ people in there late teens/early 20's from the locality to work part time instead of employing EU or non nationals who take up an awful lot of the part time jobs out there.

tatli_lokma

i_love_toast wrote: »

This has nothing to do with non irish nationalities but its just he likes to provide local jobs for local people. At the end up the day he provides 15 local irish jobs who live in the community. This is EXTREMELY important these days for working class areas. For a local lads to work in his/her locality during college it puts off the large strain on the parents struggling to pay their fee's etc.

because of course only Irish people with pasty skin live locally....you'd never get a foreigner living in a small working class community! :rolleyes:

But you know what, I think you are on to something here, you might have the answer to the emplyment problem in Dublin - send all the culchies home and then us real working class Dubs can have a chance of a job! they're not locals. And all the jackeens from the big schmoke need to leave Cork and Galway quick smart, so that local people can have local jobs!!


do you realise how silly you sound. If your boss is actively encouraging employment of locals that is great, but the way you are phrasing your post makes it sound like he is choosing a local Irish person over a foreign person living in the area. That is wrong - where you are from should not matter. We all have bills to pay, regardless of whether you were born in the area or came to live there from elsewhere. If you are a good worker that is all that should matter...being chinese or Irish should be irrelevant. Are you telling me that you honestly believe that all things being equal an Irish 21 year old from the area should get preference over a chinese 21 year old who lives in the area??? that's wrong, plain and simple.

the irish 21 year old probably has their family near by, and some support network, where as the 21 yr old Chinese person might have no one to help them out, feed them or put a roof over their heads but themselves.

i_love_toast wrote: »

My younger brother however who is now 18 years old could not get summer jobs for the past two years and to be honest it is mainly do to non nationals working in stores in the city and has to rely on my families single income to pay for school/books/clothes/ socializing etc.

must be that he is not local enough to the city to get the job! :P

or more realisitcally, if he is looking for a job in the city, then there is probably more competition due to a larger pool of workers. that decreases your chance of a job.

And how dare other foreign people get a job and pay their way when your brother has an entitlement due to his nationality to have a job??? :rolleyes:

i_love_toast wrote: »

I honestly think it is very very important for employers to employ people in there late teens/early 20's from the locality to work part time instead of employing EU or non nationals who take up an awful lot of the part time jobs out there.

again I ask, so no non-nationals live in small local communities then? only white, Irish teenagers live locally is it? and its better to give a student a job to help pay for their drinking money than it is to pay a grown non-national who might have a family to support, and possibly a lot more responsibilities???

look, I know its hard for young people to earn a few quid, and I know its frustrating, but you really need to open your frame of reference and see the bigger picture. No one should have an entitlement to a job because they are local or white or male or whatever....that is like the old gods time when employers gave jobs to married men over single women because men had 'responsibilities' and the women could just go get a husband to support her. It really is comparable to what you are saying.

your bro can't get a job because there is much larger competition for these jobs than there used to be, particularly in cities. And its not just cos of Non-nationals, as numbers of non-Irish worker is decreasing.

And as I pointed out before many of the non-nationals will not stand up for themselves when an employer tries to take the piss - a young Irish guy or girl might well tell the boss where to go when they are expected to work 12 hours with practically no breaks, where as a non-national with no family to help support them, and rent to pay might just suck it up and feel glad to have a job. Give that a ponder....

I have a friend who came here aged 20 yrs old. At the time Bulgaria wasn't in the EU so she was a non-EU national. She didn't care what job she got, once she got a job. She cleaned night clubs, literally mopping up vomit and god knows what else, she delivered leaflets and worked in a spar. All part time, all just to get enough money to pay her way and improve her language skills. Unlike your brother she had no family to pay for her books/clothes/ socializing etc. She worked her arse off and now has perfect english and is a great worker with a good skill set. She was let go last summer from her office job, and is now back working in a local shop, taking any hours she can get because, like I say she has no one to give her a dig out other than herself. Thank god that she doesn't live in your area as if she did she wouldn't have even got a job in a local shop, cos only local Irish people are allowed work there.

She is paying her way, paying her taxes and not expecting something for nothing....I have no problem with people like that regardless of whether they are local, Irish, black, white or purple. Some day you or your brother might need to travel elsewhere to get a job - local jobs for local people might not seem like such a great concept then....

redto

If until the recent budget 49 percent of people in ireland were paying no tax then those so called low end workers paid no tax.

With the new budget there will be a small contribution. Welfare is not being paid so it is a saving for the government

Again until the recent budget A couple with 2 children earning about 40k contributed about 0 or possibly were net recipients of government money when child benefit is subtracted from tax paid. ( Talking about direct tax here,) so essentially a person working here and claiming child benefit contributed 0 to the state in direct tax, at least if the child were here then money might be spent on clothes food etc and circulating money in the economy here.

tax calculator here for 2009 here type in 40k 2 earner then add 3600€ (12 x 300) to net income 37848. total €41448, so goverenment pays a working couple 1448 euro nett per year. That is for all couples, however the second link does show where money that could be circulating in the economy is going
http://www.kpmg.ie/budget2009/calculator/index.htm

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2009/0309/ireland/25m-on-child-benefit-for-non-residents-86248.html

Amhran Nua

Little Ted wrote: »

She cleaned night clubs, literally mopping up vomit and god knows what else, she delivered leaflets and worked in a spar.

I've done all of those jobs at one stage or another. I'm not sure why you're elaborating on the fact that migrants haven't got a support network of family to rely on, they decided to place themselves in that position in another country of their own free will, while the young local people find themselves forced into the position through no fault of their own. Also I'm not sure why you're mentioning the willingness of migrant workers to take abuse as a good thing, this reduces the standard of working conditions for all lower paid workers.

It is as far as I'm aware illegal to discriminate against nationalities when employing people, so I should hope that grocer isn't doing that. To be honest though I think we need a full and impartial evaluation of the effect of the level of migration Ireland has received since 2004, something that has been notably lacking to date.

redto

Ted one thing i would disagree on one thing, all the polish people I worked with were much more aware of rights, rates labor court etc than any of the irish czech german or english co workers. I cant comment on anyone other than those i worked with


In fact they would down tools and head to the office if there was any issue. And I can only speak for myself but the majority ( were great until there was a toe in the door so to speak, and then it was slow, extra long tea breaks, no interest in the quality or quantity of work, and very beligerent. Ironically they got their full holiday pay and all their benefits due when the company went bust, everyone else had to go through the labor court to get our money at the reduced state rate. (Stupid irish english czech an germans)

i_love_toast

Little Ted wrote: »

because of course only Irish people with pasty skin live locally....you'd never get a foreigner living in a small working class community! :rolleyes:

whats that sound????its the pc police here in force!!!

Little Ted wrote: »

But you know what, I think you are on to something here, you might have the answer to the emplyment problem in Dublin - send all the culchies home and then us real working class Dubs can have a chance of a job! they're not locals.

Thats not what i said. Nobody lays claim to a city for employment opportunities. Nobody from Cork, Galway, Limerick or Dublin expect to get a job ahead of anyone from outside coming in trying to get one thats just crazy to have that ideology and its not what I meant.

Little Ted wrote: »

do you realise how silly you sound. If your boss is actively encouraging employment of locals that is great, but the way you are phrasing your post makes it sound like he is choosing a local Irish person over a foreign person living in the area. That is wrong - where you are from should not matter. We all have bills to pay, regardless of whether you were born in the area or came to live there from elsewhere. If you are a good worker that is all that should matter...being chinese or Irish should be irrelevant. Are you telling me that you honestly believe that all things being equal an Irish 21 year old from the area should get preference over a chinese 21 year old who lives in the area??? that's wrong, plain and simple.

If I put in a cv into a Chinese restraunt on Parnell St in Dublin and a Chinese immigrant put theirs in the exact same time. I honestly dont think the Chinese employer will be calling me up for the job nor do I expect him too. That Chinese employer will be employing his fellow Chinese man and giving him a start in Ireland and looking after his own. At the end up the day the idea of "open opportunities" for everyone is great and all but it does not go through every employers head.
And if my employer wants to employ Irish teens/ early 20's who are all from the area so be it. This has nothing to do with skin color as im sure in a few years time there will be Irish kids to Asian parents or Irish kids to African parents who will work in the same shop and who grew up in the locality. And to be honest customers appreciate the fact that their sons, nephews and grandsons can actually get a chance of a job in his local shop. Their was a Spar down the road from us who's management was taken over by two very nice Russian men. The Irish staff in the shop were soon replaced by Russians and other eastern Europeans and there hasnt been an Irish person employed in that Spar for 5-6 years now. So it goes both ways.

Little Ted wrote: »

And as I pointed out before many of the non-nationals will not stand up for themselves when an employer tries to take the piss - a young Irish guy or girl might well tell the boss where to go when they are expected to work 12 hours with practically no breaks, where as a non-national with no family to help support them, and rent to pay might just suck it up and feel glad to have a job. Give that a ponder....

Look we've all heard that story. I have Chinese friends who know exactly what their rights are in work and have told their boss on plently of occasions where to go when he has tried to make them work more hours than their contract says. Not saying that it does'nt happen but not every immigrant worker doesnt know their rights. They certainly have friends they can talk to if they are being abused and do something about it.

Little Ted wrote: »

I have a friend who came here aged 20 yrs old. At the time Bulgaria wasn't in the EU so she was a non-EU national. She didn't care what job she got, once she got a job. She cleaned night clubs, literally mopping up vomit and god knows what else, she delivered leaflets and worked in a spar. All part time, all just to get enough money to pay her way and improve her language skills. Unlike your brother she had no family to pay for her books/clothes/ socializing etc. She worked her arse off and now has perfect english and is a great worker with a good skill set. She was let go last summer from her office job, and is now back working in a local shop, taking any hours she can get because, like I say she has no one to give her a dig out other than herself. Thank god that she doesn't live in your area as if she did she wouldn't have even got a job in a local shop, cos only local Irish people are allowed work there.

Now I understand everyone has heard the story of the poor non national who came here with nothing in search of a better future to better their English and they cleaned up vomit etc for god knows how little money.

Now you say us Irish college students "sure uve your parents to fall back on etc"...that is'nt always true. There are so many students out their that need to contribute to the payment of their 2000e college fee's, lunch money, bus fair, rent etc and JUST DO NOT expect nor want their parents to pay their way through college for them. In my area I know alot of people who relied on local part time work to pay for their way through college as their parents just couldnt afford to pay it for them. And not all college students spend every penny on drink. Now you say that the EU member or non national who may not live in the area but who has a family to rear should get this job ahead of the student. Now i do not agree with this at all. I understand they have come for a better life as their own country could not provide the opportunities for them...so what happens to the Irish born citizens when their country can not provide the opportunities for them?

tatli_lokma

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've done all of those jobs at one stage or another. I'm not sure why you're elaborating on the fact that migrants haven't got a support network of family to rely on, they decided to place themselves in that position in another country of their own free will, while the young local people find themselves forced into the position through no fault of their own. Also I'm not sure why you're mentioning the willingness of migrant workers to take abuse as a good thing, this reduces the standard of working conditions for all lower paid workers.

perhaps I didn't explain myself properly on this, my fault. I am not saying that "poor foreigners they have no one and came here with nothng and dragged themselves up by their boot straps" plenty of us, of all nationalities have had to do that....the comparison I was trying to make is that saying students should get jobs instead of foreigners so that they don't have to ask mammy and daddy for help for quote

school/books/clothes/socialising etc

is silly.

at 16-18 years old, the majority (not all but most) people live at home with their parents. They have a roof over their head and food and utilities. Generally they are working for 'pocket money' if they are looking for p/t local shop jobs. It is silly to say that its the fault of foreigners that these kids can't get extra pocket money jobs. That is the point I was referring to when I commented that many people - not just foreigners, but Irish too - have no mammy and daddy to help out, they are on their own two feet. that goes for adult Irish workers who are also now taking what would have once been traditionally a teenagers jobs. I have never seen so many people over 30 working in in McDonalds!

I also do not mean to say that it is a good thing that many people get taken advantage of, but that it is more likely to happen to people with no frame of reference of how the working system is in Ireland/EU and no family to stick up for them and no option but to keep being mistreated until they find another job, which is not always easy if you are non-EU. Most Irish born people under 20years old don't face that dilemma as most (again most, not all) can still have somewhere to stay and food on the table thanks to mam and dad. Employers taking the piss is becoming more and more common since the recession, and they have more of a chance of getting away with it with visa requiring non-nationals.

I have had experience of it in my own life - the hotel my hubby worked in hired mainly visa required non-EU nationals for that very reason. Most of the staff knew they were being treated badly but felt there was little they could do but hope to find another job - if you have no job at visa renewal time there is a high chance your residency will be revoked. And the employer they work for holds this over their heads like an axe waiting to drop.

redto wrote: »

Ted one thing i would disagree on one thing, all the polish people I worked with were much more aware of rights, rates labor court etc than any of the irish czech german or english co workers. I cant comment on anyone other than those i worked with


In fact they would down tools and head to the office if there was any issue. And I can only speak for myself but the majority ( were great until there was a toe in the door so to speak, and then it was slow, extra long tea breaks, no interest in the quality or quantity of work, and very beligerent. Ironically they got their full holiday pay and all their benefits due when the company went bust, everyone else had to go through the labor court to get our money at the reduced state rate. (Stupid irish english czech an germans)

look, totally get where you are coming from - there are card carrying 'I know my rights' idiots everywhere, however I was refering to non-EU nationals, as per the thread title who require a visa and may very possibly be sponsored by the company they work for. Polish etc don't need a work permit so are not so dependent upon their employers.

CathleenN

i_love_toast wrote: »

If I put in a cv into a Chinese restraunt on Parnell St in Dublin and a Chinese immigrant put theirs in the exact same time. I honestly dont think the Chinese employer will be calling me up for the job nor do I expect him too. That Chinese employer will be employing his fellow Chinese man and giving him a start in Ireland and looking after his own.

The Chinese employer will not be able to get the work permit for this fellow Chinese man if with this new employee more than 50% of his staff happens to be non-EU. So take your chance - the owner might be happy to employ you to correct the proportion

tatli_lokma

i_love_toast wrote: »

whats that sound????its the pc police here in force!!!

:rolleyes:
first off, consider the tone of my comment, meant tongue in cheek to show how short sighted your comment was.
and I'm suddenly PC police because I have an objection to someone thinking it is acceptable for only local Irish people to get part time jobs, and preferably young teenagers so they have 'socialising' money???? get a grip. What do you propose? that only people within a 2 mile catchment area of a premises are allowed to apply for a job there? what constitutes local?
and you did specificically state local IRISH people, so yeah I do have a problem with that, PC police or not, that does not sit comfortably with me.

i_love_toast wrote: »

Thats not what i said. Nobody lays claim to a city for employment opportunities. Nobody from Cork, Galway, Limerick or Dublin expect to get a job ahead of anyone from outside coming in trying to get one thats just crazy to have that ideology and its not what I meant.

but that is exactly what you are suggesting should happen outside of a city in a 'local' area. Local jobs for local people - well I am a 'local' of dublin city centre, should I have preference over someone from Cork? of course not, cos that is silly. but by your logic once I go to a local town, if I am not from that town, and god forbid, not Irish, and worse again foreign and over 20 then I should not have that job over a local person teenager.

i_love_toast wrote: »

If I put in a cv into a Chinese restraunt on Parnell St in Dublin and a Chinese immigrant put theirs in the exact same time. I honestly dont think the Chinese employer will be calling me up for the job nor do I expect him too. That Chinese employer will be employing his fellow Chinese man and giving him a start in Ireland and looking after his own. At the end up the day the idea of "open opportunities" for everyone is great and all but it does not go through every employers head.

well it would depend on what the Chinese take away was looking for - if they wanted a "local" to answer the phone, who knew the area so as to organise the deliveries, then yeah, I'd say they would give you the job if you fit the bill. If they were looking for a Chinese speaker, or someone to work in the kitchen with other chinese speakers, or who could cook chinese food, then the logical choice would be for them to hire 'one of their own' (god I hate that expression)

i_love_toast wrote: »

And if my employer wants to employ Irish teens/ early 20's who are all from the area so be it. This has nothing to do with skin color as im sure in a few years time there will be Irish kids to Asian parents or Irish kids to African parents who will work in the same shop and who grew up in the locality. And to be honest customers appreciate the fact that their sons, nephews and grandsons can actually get a chance of a job in his local shop. Their was a Spar down the road from us who's management was taken over by two very nice Russian men. The Irish staff in the shop were soon replaced by Russians and other eastern Europeans and there hasnt been an Irish person employed in that Spar for 5-6 years now. So it goes both ways.

I know it goes both ways, I never suggested otherwise. Just as so many Irish have given their countrymen a start in the US, Australia, Germany etc. Human nature and fair enough. But you did quite categorically state that

my employer just takes on local Irish lads and ladies who grew up in the area and are mostly in college

so the criteria for a job in that shop, before ability is even considered are
Irish
Local
Young
Preferably in college

that is wrong on so many levels, and I would personally believe that you are very niiave to believe that the real reason he hires these people is because they are local kids. More likely, they are younger so lower wages, won't join a union, won't want to look for promotion, and possibly will take cash in hand work for a lower hourly rate (maybe not in your case, but that is the case for a lot of teenage workers). His decision will have a benefit on his business, its not just out of community spirit, however he may care to spin it.

I believe that most employers will seek the advantage for them - that is business. And getting the cheapest labour is one way to do this - not all are unscrupulous, but quite a lot are. So if you can hire a foreigner who will work longer for less so be it, that saves you money and they are replaceable if they don't like it. Then next vulnerable are students and young workers with no experience of working elsewhere or who haven't had enough life experience to know how to constructively stand up for themselves.

i_love_toast wrote: »

Look we've all heard that story. I have Chinese friends who know exactly what their rights are in work and have told their boss on plently of occasions where to go when he has tried to make them work more hours than their contract says. Not saying that it does'nt happen but not every immigrant worker doesnt know their rights. They certainly have friends they can talk to if they are being abused and do something about it.

never said that all immigrant workers are taken advantage of, and fair play to your mates who stick up for themselves. Many people who's permission to remain in Ireland is dependent upon them having a job can not be so vociferous when treated badly.

i_love_toast wrote: »

Now you say us Irish college students "sure uve your parents to fall back on etc"...that is'nt always true. There are so many students out their that need to contribute to the payment of their 2000e college fee's, lunch money, bus fair, rent etc and JUST DO NOT expect nor want their parents to pay their way through college for them. In my area I know alot of people who relied on local part time work to pay for their way through college as their parents just couldnt afford to pay it for them. And not all college students spend every penny on drink.

I accept your point, I worked myself through college and I know it is needed by many students, but their need is no more deserving than anyone elses, and that is the point I was making.

i_love_toast wrote: »

Now you say that the EU member or non national who may not live in the area but who has a family to rear should get this job ahead of the student. Now i do not agree with this at all. I understand they have come for a better life as their own country could not provide the opportunities for them...so what happens to the Irish born citizens when their country can not provide the opportunities for them?

Again, that is not what I said - I was using that example to point out the flaws in your argument. The point is, lots of people have lots of reasons for needing a job, none is more deserving than another. you were the one who suggested that local teens get the job over a foreigner, not me. I don't suggest that any one should get a job over another person for any reason other than they are the best person for that job

Bill2673

i_love_toast wrote: »

Well i work in a local grocery store and my employer just takes on local Irish lads and ladies who grew up in the area and are mostly in college. This has nothing to do with non irish nationalities but its just he likes to provide local jobs for local people. At the end up the day he provides 15 local irish jobs who live in the community. This is EXTREMELY important these days for working class areas. For a local lads to work in his/her locality during college it puts off the large strain on the parents struggling to pay their fee's etc.

My younger brother however who is now 18 years old could not get summer jobs for the past two years and to be honest it is mainly do to non nationals working in stores in the city and has to rely on my families single income to pay for school/books/clothes/ socializing etc. I honestly think it is very very important for employers to employ people in there late teens/early 20's from the locality to work part time instead of employing EU or non nationals who take up an awful lot of the part time jobs out there.

Just so we can be clear......there are 900,000 Irish people (Irish born) living in Britain.....I am guessing that there are at least another million Irish scattered across the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, various parts of Europe and so on.

So if we take your logic, then Irish employers should only employ irish people.......so should foreign employers only employ their local workers....and what happens then when those two million irish living overseas have to come back home.

Or what would you suggest?

To put it another way, there are many, many more Irish living and working overseas than there are foreigners living and working in ireland.

Amhran Nua

Bill2673 wrote: »

To put it another way, there are many, many more Irish living and working overseas than there are foreigners living and working in ireland.

What you're touching on here is Ireland's ability to absorb migrant workforces - we aren't the US or even the UK, there is no equivalence.

Bill2673

Amhran Nua wrote: »

What you're touching on here is Ireland's ability to absorb migrant workforces - we aren't the US or even the UK, there is no equivalence.

My point is that is there is a suggestion that there is no room for foreign workers in ireland, then the only possible way to be fair about it is to have a counterpoint that irish workers shouldn't go overseas. If that was the case, then I am pointing out that there are many, many more Irish living and working overseas than there are foreigners living and working in ireland.

I don't understand your point regarding equivalence. I never said we were the US or the UK, or suggested that. Perhaps you could clarify for me, tks.

i_love_toast

Bill2673 wrote: »

Just so we can be clear......there are 900,000 Irish people (Irish born) living in Britain.....I am guessing that there are at least another million Irish scattered across the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, various parts of Europe and so on.

So if we take your logic, then Irish employers should only employ irish people.......so should foreign employers only employ their local workers....and what happens then when those two million irish living overseas have to come back home.

Or what would you suggest?

To put it another way, there are many, many more Irish living and working overseas than there are foreigners living and working in ireland.

I never said/meant that I am totally against immigration to Ireland. I am fully aware and in agreement of the EU migration and work laws around europe. However, what I do understand is that Ireland and Britain are getting the vast brunt of eastern european migrants and unlike Britian, Ireland is a very small country. And it is in no comparison to the Irish emmigrating to the u.s. The population of america is 310 million compared to 4 million for Ireland. Irish emigrating to america was only a dot to the employment market.

The boom years are gone jobs are very very scarce. Migration is completed one way too. Ireland and the UK are the main destinations for employment for all of europe. Now this has left us in a situation where there is no longer a chance of an Irish born student or teenager getting a college job to no fault of his/her own in his his/her birth country. And no, he cannot go to Poland and get a job in a supermarket over there. So yes, I do believe if a local milk man, local grocer etc wants to give a job someone he knows well who was born and reared in the area and contribute to the area so be it....we'll have to disagree on the matter.

View

i_love_toast wrote: »

I never said/meant that I am totally against immigration to Ireland. I am fully aware and in agreement of the EU migration and work laws around europe. However, what I do understand is that Ireland and Britain are getting the vast brunt of eastern european migrants and unlike Britian, Ireland is a very small country. And it is in no comparison to the Irish emmigrating to the u.s. The population of america is 310 million compared to 4 million for Ireland. Irish emigrating to america was only a dot to the employment market.

The boom years are gone jobs are very very scarce. Migration is completed one way too. Ireland and the UK are the main destinations for employment for all of europe. Now this has left us in a situation where there is no longer a chance of an Irish born student or teenager getting a college job to no fault of his/her own in his his/her birth country. And no, he cannot go to Poland and get a job in a supermarket over there. So yes, I do believe if a local milk man, local grocer etc wants to give a job someone he knows well who was born and reared in the area and contribute to the area so be it....we'll have to disagree on the matter.

All part of the freedom of movement rules - we accepted them back in 1972. They are not going to be changed at this stage.

Incidentally, the restrictions on free movement from the newer accession states are virtually gone for the 2004 states (only 3 member states still have some - till May next year) and are gone for a majority of the states for the 2007 states.

djpbarry

not yet wrote: »

... the fat cats made money on the backs of non nationals for years, now the same fat cats want a race to the bottom on the minimum wage, and non nationals are happy to oblige.

Foreign nationals are “happy” to earn less money? As for this “race to the bottom”, we’ve been hearing all about it since the Nice Treaty referenda, yet the minimum wage is only now being reduced (due to economic circumstances) – not so much a ‘race to the bottom’ as a ‘saunter toward normality’.

djpbarry

i_love_toast wrote: »

My younger brother however who is now 18 years old could not get summer jobs for the past two years and to be honest it is mainly do to non nationals working in stores in the city...

...because presumably, they are of more value to their employers than your brother is?

i_love_toast wrote: »

If I put in a cv into a Chinese restraunt on Parnell St in Dublin and a Chinese immigrant put theirs in the exact same time. I honestly dont think the Chinese employer will be calling me up for the job nor do I expect him too. That Chinese employer will be employing his fellow Chinese man and giving him a start in Ireland and looking after his own.

How many Irish people do you suppose are applying for jobs in Chinese restaurants on Parnell Street? I’m going to hazard a guess at zero.

i_love_toast wrote: »

At the end up the day the idea of "open opportunities" for everyone is great and all but it does not go through every employers head.

That doesn’t make it right.

i_love_toast wrote: »

Now you say that the EU member or non national who may not live in the area but who has a family to rear should get this job ahead of the student.

The best candidate gets the job. End of.

i_love_toast wrote: »

I am fully aware and in agreement of the EU migration and work laws around europe.

No you’re not. You want Irish employers to favour Irish people in their recruitment processes. I think you’ll find that goes against the EU ethos to some extent.

i_love_toast wrote: »

However, what I do understand is that Ireland and Britain are getting the vast brunt of eastern european migrants and unlike Britian, Ireland is a very small country.
...
Ireland and the UK are the main destinations for employment for all of europe.

Why are you speaking in the present tense? Ireland is currently experiencing very low levels of immigration (not seen since the early 90’s) and record levels of emigration.

djpbarry

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I'm not sure why you're elaborating on the fact that migrants haven't got a support network of family to rely on, they decided to place themselves in that position in another country of their own free will, while the young local people find themselves forced into the position through no fault of their own.

So migrants who found themselves unable to secure employment, through no fault of their own, in their native localities went to work in Ireland of their own free will, but the poor wee Irish young ‘uns, through no fault of their own, are somehow prevented from migrating and forced to remain unemployed in their own localities. Hmm.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

To be honest though I think we need a full and impartial evaluation of the effect of the level of migration Ireland has received since 2004...

What do you mean by “evaluation”?

Amhran Nua wrote: »

What you're touching on here is Ireland's ability to absorb migrant workforces - we aren't the US or even the UK, there is no equivalence.

Ah, so it’s not deeply hypocritical of Ireland to be complaining about immigrants stealing all the jobs so long as Irish people only steal jobs in big countries?

herya

i_love_toast wrote: »

And no, he cannot go to Poland and get a job in a supermarket over there.

Why not? Of course he can. He's fully eliible to work there, he just needs to learn Polish.

not yet

djpbarry wrote: »

Foreign nationals are “happy” to earn less money? As for this “race to the bottom”, we’ve been hearing all about it since the Nice Treaty referenda, yet the minimum wage is only now being reduced (due to economic circumstances) – not so much a ‘race to the bottom’ as a ‘saunter toward normality’.

So please explain to me how this makes one cent for the exchequer or makes us more competitive......

All the cut will do is please IBEC and ISME, why...? because if an employer has 50 people @ minimum wage a 1 euro cut = 40euro per employee = 2k per week, this will go into his pocket and anyone who thinks any different needs to wake up.