Debt Collectors Struggling (Hee Hee)

Dempo1

Theres an enormous increase in Consumers being hounded by Debt Collection agencies and there are ample examples of very shoddy practices at Play. It occurred to me that with the increase people unable to pay debts is this industry dead in the water. Only this morning one prominent debt collection company with the Enlightening Name of Cash Flow Services applied for examiner ship

http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/more_details/10-11-10/Petition_to_Appoint_an_Examiner_Cash_Flow_Services_Limited.aspx

With very little options open to these companies to recover debt in the current climate, in particular Installment orders which district Judges are reluctant to award for those on SW. The days are long gone were Committal orders are being awarded against defaulters as all that is required is proof the Debtor Can't as opposed to won't pay. Judgment mortgages too are pointless as they are expensive to apply for and anyway in most cases the property is either in negative equity or perhaps mortgage arrears with little or any hope of a forced sale for a very, very long time.

My question, whats the point if any of debt collection companies, will it be the case Debt forgiveness is finally the only option.

amiable

There are several Debt collection agencies out there that use very persuasive efforts that they find successful and will probably continue to operate for the time being

Gillo

When you say persuasive, exactly how close to the wind are these lads sailing from a legal point of view.

I would have thought that any good agency would be doing pretty good business at the moment.
Kind of off topic but I'd be curious to see how money lenders are doing at the same time now that banks have copped on and stopped just throwing money out.

Run_to_da_hills

Loan sharks thrive in this economic climate.

They have the law to themselves when it comes to recouping debts.

maxwell smart

Surely Cashflow Services (and others) who go into examinership and perhaps receivership will just sell their debts on?
Could people who owe them money make them an offer of 10cent in the euro to pay their debts off? As they will probably offer their creditors!

Dempo1

Yes indeed some agencies attempt to be persuasive but again not much point in this approach if the Money is just not there,

One example i am aware of

Well known Bank engaged a Solicitors firm (well known in this particular field) to chase a debt, every trick in the book was attempted, the Debtor (whom i know) ignored letters, judgments etc. Five years on, yes Five years on he is before the district court for an installment order, he decides to engage, fills out a statement of means form which includes written confirmation he is in negative income after all his outgoings are taken into consideration and to add icing to the cake, he is now on SW.

A copy of this means statement is forwarded to the clerk of the district court. Two weeks pass and suddenly the legal firm write back to the debtor seeking an offer of a payment schedule, the case is still pending. The debtor duly writes back confirming he has absolutely nothing to offer but stresses he accepts the debt, wants to address it but can't. What next? The case may proceed but i suspect the Solicitors for the bank know full well they may at best get a paltry Installment order which could mean it would take years if not decades to pay off the debt, theres another interesting twist to court Installment orders, once they are made, even if it is tiny, the Creditor or its agents can not approach the debtor under any circumstances as long as the installments are being met, so they get their installment order, enormous legal expenses have been incurred.

My point being surely the debt being written off would have been the less costly option for the creditor?

amiable

Gillo wrote: »

When you say persuasive, exactly how close to the wind are these lads sailing from a legal point of view.

I would have thought that any good agency would be doing pretty good business at the moment.
Kind of off topic but I'd be curious to see how money lenders are doing at the same time now that banks have copped on and stopped just throwing money out.

Lets just say some of them wouldn't be the nicest people in the world before they entered in to this business.
I'd prefer not to say too much.

Dempo1

maxwell smart wrote: »

Surely Cashflow Services (and others) who go into examinership and perhaps receivership will just sell their debts on?
Could people who owe them money make them an offer of 10cent in the euro to pay their debts off? As they will probably offer their creditors!

Yes fair point but were does it end, OK they are taken over, they have paid say 50% for the original debt, the next agencies pays 25%, they go wallop, the next crowd pay 10% Blaa Blaa until finally there is zero value on the debt. I just get a sense that things are so bad with debt in the Irish Market that it is becoming near impossible to chase debt. Look at the massive judgments against directors, developers recently on the back of personal guarantees. theres not a hope in hell of any of these Judgments being paid.

I am also aware of some people now on their third debt collection agency for a single original debt?

amiable

Dempo1 wrote: »

Yes indeed some agencies attempt to be persuasive but again not much point in this approach if the Money is just not there,

When i say persuasive i don't mean they just keep bugging you or charm you into paying. I mean more forceful persuassive. Sorry for being a bit vague

Dempo1

amiable wrote: »

When i say persuasive i don't mean they just keep bugging you or charm you into paying. I mean more forceful persuassive. Sorry for being a bit vague

No, i got your point! certain agents act like thugs but it gets them nowhere, especially when they cross the line (demanding money with menance). Ultimately its impossible to get blood out a stone, if the money is not there, its not there. I have heard some horror stories especially the colorful Viper who finally had his wings clipped.

drunkmonkey

Dempo1 wrote: »

No, i got your point! certain agents act like thugs but it gets them nowhere, especially when they cross the line .

There shouldn't be a line, if you default on a debt to someone they should be able to use any means possible to recover that debt.
Defaulting is as good as Theft, I don't see any difference. Their should be no mercy for people with bad debts.

amiable

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There shouldn't be a line, if you default on a debt to someone they should be able to use any means possible to recover that debt.
Defaulting is as good as Theft, I don't see any difference. Their should be no mercy for people with bad debts.

Including violence? I hope you don't actually mean that so please amend your statement if you don't

looksee

Dempo1 wrote: »

especially the colorful Viper who finally had his wings clipped.

Flying vipers?

Cavehill Red

looksee wrote: »

Flying vipers?

http://www.viper-aircraft.com/

Dempo1

Cavehill Red wrote: »

http://www.viper-aircraft.com/

No, LOL , the infamous thug Viper who decided to set up a debt collection business through intimidation, he had his wings clipped by the Gardai and a number of high profile injunctions against him. The only thing this thug was good at in his life was avoiding assassination attempts (10 last count) and on one occasion was shot 9 times and survived.

Dempo1

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There shouldn't be a line, if you default on a debt to someone they should be able to use any means possible to recover that debt.
Defaulting is as good as Theft, I don't see any difference. Their should be no mercy for people with bad debts.

A rather right wing a pre historic attitude to have. Whilst i agree debt needs to be paid and people should take responsibility the point of this Thread is to ask should debt forgiveness be considered, i ask this question based on the fact the situation is reaching crisis point and normal methods used to pursue debt are clearly not working. Debt forgiveness is not just about completely wiping out the debt, its about creating mechanisms to facilitate a realistic prospect of the creditor getting something rather than nothing. The current system is at breaking point, district and circuit courts jammed with debt cases and with the only remedy in most cases being installment orders, how is awarding paltry installment orders which could last decades going to address the problem. Legal, administration and communication expenses are increasing along with the original debt in most cases with no light at the end of the Tunnel.

drunkmonkey

Dempo1 wrote: »

A rather right wing a pre historic attitude to have. Whilst i agree debt needs to be paid and people should take responsibility the point of this Thread is to ask should debt forgiveness be considered.

Right Wing, Pre Historic??? what reality are your living in? You think because there are a load of people in debt they should be allowed default and even get forgiveness.
I don't think you'd have the same perspective if it was your money being defaulted on.

Seriously, you do a deal with someone, they give you credit in good faith and you default. You want forgiveness, are you mad?

Cavehill Red

America's currently printing dollars to deal with its deficit.
Effectively, by reducing the value of the dollar by making more of them available, they reduce their debt (albeit at the expense of those who hold dollars.)

And plenty of countries have in the past reneged on sovereign debt and returned to the markets only a few years later.

Why should debt forgiveness only be permissable to companies or governments?

It's standard practice to mark down unaffordable debts in most civilised countries. It is understood that the lender assumes a risk of default (for which they obtain interest) and that they must share in the woes if a creditor is incapable of meeting payments.

Only in Ireland do we still have antiquated laws on the statute books jailing individuals for non-payment of debts.

No one is suggesting that people shouldn't try to pay their debts. But lenders must also acknowledge that their rash lending policies (I recall seeing a sign which read 'Self-employed: Ask us about our 110% mortgages!' sign in one lender only a few years ago) mean that they too must assume a share of responsibility.

Dempo1

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Right Wing, Pre Historic??? what reality are your living in? You think because there are a load of people in debt they should be allowed default and even get forgiveness.
I don't think you'd have the same perspective if it was your money being defaulted on.

Seriously, you do a deal with someone, they give you credit in good faith and you default. You want forgiveness, are you mad?

Nope, not mad but a realist. The Original question on this thread questions the nonsensical situation that prevails in the Debt Recovery sector which is a Joke. I never said debtors should be let off scot free, i wondered is there a better system whereby debts could be collected. As explained the current system of debt collection is a pointless exercise and only serves to clog up the court system, increase legal and admin costs with the Debt ultimately remaining or a paltry installment order allowing the debt be paid off over many years. Such is the state of the debt recovery market, companies in the sector are applying for examiner ship.

Perhaps you have a solution other than the shot gun approach which as been tried and tested and failed miserably leading to creditors in exactly the same position they were in when they were given false hope of recouping the debt (no doubt after additional expense)

nuebie2

hi guys, does anybody have any information re; Cashflow services???
my partner has a debt with them, he received a phone call from them last november-ish saying he could pay a reduced amount of 1500 to clear his debt. as he was only working 3days a week he wasnt in a position to do so. we now are but cannot contact the company? is it wise to continue with his weekly payements to there account as i heard they are in liquidation??? also how will his debt look if we are going for a mortgage as we want to clear it but seem to be in limbo any info is much appreciated!!!

the groutch

people are now clued into how little power these agencies really have.
unless they are buying the debts off another company, all they can do is try scare you into paying, and with less people fall for this, they're making less money themselves.

nuebie2

the thing is we want this debt paid up and cleared. Cashflow services website is offline and i cant get any info on who to contact... This unpaid debt could seriously harm our chance for a mortgage with already pretty strict pre-requisits?

Beano

Go back to the original company you owe the money to and pay them.

nuebie2

i was talking to GE Money already and they've said the debt is with cashflow and now nothing to do with them?!

jor el

nuebie2 wrote: »

This unpaid debt could seriously harm our chance for a mortgage with already pretty strict pre-requisits?

Too late to be worrying about that. If the original creditor sold the debt to a collection agency, then you've already been marked as a bad debtor. If there is ever going to be a mark against you for not paying a loan, it's already there.

Check your credit record to see for yourself. If you've been marked as missing payments on a loan, then you won't be getting a mortgage any time soon.

If there isn't a mark against you on this loan, then a debt collector will not be able to apply one. Only if they went to court, then the court could effect your credit record. A bank, or other lending institute, can effect your credit record directly. In your case, GE Money may have already done this.

the_syco

nuebie2 wrote: »

is it wise to continue with his weekly payements to there account as i heard they are in liquidation???

Get legal advice on this one, as IMO I'd say stop as there may be no-one at the other side taking note that you are paying money. By this I mean that when they went into liquidation they may have stopped taking reducing what you owe them when you gave them money.

Again, I'd really advise you to get legal advice, as the money you think is going towards your debt may now just be going into a bottomless pit :pac:

jor el

The receiver appointed is Kavanagh Fennell, and you should contact them about where your payment is going.

Stopping the payment would not be a good idea. The receiver may take legal action to recoup what you owe. Which would land you in an even worse position.

nuebie2

Thanks JOR EL and SYCO! Have just seen yer posts and got on to them today! Still waiting for a call back but am glad to get the ball rollin with this. Fingers crossed!!! As the origional debt was about 5years ago im hopin it wont be a big deal as i have been told that it affects your credit 5years from the first missed payement... hopefully the early pay off will look good on his part!!!!

jonnny68

anyone any more info on this crowd everyday debt recovery who seem to be hounding former customers of Halifax Ireland who might still owe a couple of hundred quid?

catch me if you can

i found cash flow services very decent. i was in trouble trying to pay back an ill advised mbna credit card. cash flow services got my debt and were lovely on the phone. i sorted out a manageable interest free payment plan with them . after a year i owed 1,600. i had managed to save up 1,000 myself during this time and cash flow let me settle with them, writing off 600 for me.

Kenny Gofuk

CASHFLOW SERVICES - Wicklow
My Advice - REFUSE TO DEAL WITH THEM - STOP YOUR PAYMENTS TO THEM!
Deal only with the person it is you owe. Trust me, I have the knowledge of having dealt with them whereby I was given a payment card to take to the post office in order to send them money regarding a debt. I did this for a number of months and at year end went to contact them about what was now my balance.
I believe that they no longer exist as they do not answer email or phone numbers and I have seen an article where allegedly they are under investigation themselves.
However if you are making payments to them with this said payment card - your money still gets taken?
Don't be a mug - give them nothing !!!