Cavity Wall Insulation

muffler

Shannon2011 wrote: »

Hi all,
I've had 3 quotes in from diff companies for pumped cavity insulation.
Details: 3 bed semi in kildare. 108 sqm

A- €1053
B- €1200
C- €1272

Can anyone please let me know if these are competitive prices, the fact that they are all in & around the same price mark, makes me think the price is ok.
Also the 1st company said I need to get a BER cert to qualify for the goverment grant. Is this correct?

All good quotes and yes you need a BER (before and after) cert to qualify for the grant. I think the cost of the cert may also be grant aided but Im open to correction on this. Check here for details

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

All good quotes and yes you need a BER (before and after) cert to qualify for the grant. I think the cost of the cert may also be grant aided but Im open to correction on this. Check here for details

just to clarify, its only an AFTER BER cert which is compulsory. Its €100 grant aided, which is not to be included in the minimum grant amount applied for.

The assessor will have to certify the before and after energy values as part of grant payment.

Shannon2011

Thanks guys, 1 more quick Q?
Recommend beads or Foam?

muffler

Beads for me

pieface_ie

I was told by one company that I needed to put sleeve over mains cable in cavity as static will break it down over time. Another company, who have been in the game for years said not to bother as the insulation that was there already had no effect on it.

Polystyrene can break down cable insulation so its best to provide the cable with a degree of protection if it is going to come into contact with polystyrene.

Antrim_Man

Well the well known company from Meath failed to show to do me a quote :mad:

Antrim_Man

Shannon2011 wrote: »

Hi all,
I've had 3 quotes in from diff companies for pumped cavity insulation.
Details: 3 bed semi in kildare. 108 sqm

A- €1053
B- €1200
C- €1272

Can anyone please let me know if these are competitive prices, the fact that they are all in & around the same price mark, makes me think the price is ok.
Also the 1st company said I need to get a BER cert to qualify for the goverment grant. Is this correct?

Can you PM me the companies please

ottop

Hi

Will you P M me the name of the company in Meath that you used ?

Thanks

Macspower

Shannon2011 wrote: »

Thanks guys, 1 more quick Q?
Recommend beads or Foam?

At the moment only the beads are certified and therefore only beads are eligible for the grant..

There is a good reason for this.. Most companies doing foam in the walls are using an open cell foam but there is a major problem with this. Firstly the foam that they are using doesn't go everywhere.. and even if it does the open cell foam has a major drawback over time.. the problem is 2 fold... the open cell foam can pass water through it so the idea is that the water will flow down through the foam and cause no problems.. however in reality and in my experience in the bottom of the walls the foam acts as a sponge and can retain the water and act as a bridge transfering the dampness from the outter wall to the inner wall.. secondly if the foam is retaining the dampness it is liable to constant expansion and contraction int he very cold weather as it freezes and thaws and can shrink and cause loss in insulation..

sorry for the long winded explanation...

Just my experience and this is coming from someone who works with spray foam everyday

So for now it's beads... ( there will be a change in this soon when our new product gets tested and certified)

Bullseye1

Have any of you you guys had experience with beads being pumped into cavities which contain ridgid insulation already?

muffler

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Have any of you you guys had experience with beads being pumped into cavities which contain ridgid insulation already?

Read the thread

Bullseye1

PauloMN wrote: »

There's definitely an improvement. I had board in the cavity but there were gaps around windows etc.. In some areas, the guys said it took quite a bit of bead. I had 200mm more insulation added also around the attic crawl space. The heat does last longer in the house, and this weather is certainly a good test for it. I was finding that I'd feel the cold even half an hour after turning off the heat whereas now it's comfortable for longer after the heat goes off.

I would be interested in getting details of the contractor if you wouldn't mind PMing me.

macker16

looking for a good insulation company in connaught area

cookiemixer

Hi,
I acse this has already been mentioned sorry (did a quick scan of prior posts but didn't see this) - if you are getting insulation done contact the SEIA to see about grants. I got the one for insulation on my inside walls (one problem it has set of my asthma which has not been an issue for over 15 years) as well as money towards the BER. In total I got €2,600 for my grants. There are grants for insulation in the attic as well as new windows. It was really easy to apply for this and all of the contractors and BER guys who are allowed to do this work are approved by the SEIA. You can find them on thier website.

muffler

cookiemixer wrote: »

there are grants for insulation in the attic as well as new windows.

The SEI don't grant aid window replacement.

Zilog

Hi all,

Couple of questions about bead cavity fill insulation:

• When doing your 3-bed semi, how do they close the cavity, to prevent beads from entering your neighbours cavity?
• Existing house has ground floor outer leaf in brickwork. Are beads suitable? I understand brick is often more porous than plastered block
• Has anyone gotten a before and after thermographic or IR camera survey to verify the effectiveness and/or look for 'holes' in insulation?

Appreciate any feedback, thanks.

u2thepale

Lads just in case people aren't aware ...

http://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/services/insulation/

Have an appointment next week with Bord Gais , looks promising all things considered, would prefer to be paying on my utility bill per month than having to cough up all the dough upfront and then wait to get my grant ..

muffler

u2thepale wrote: »

Lads just in case people aren't aware ...

http://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/services/insulation/

Have an appointment next week with Bord Gais , looks promising all things considered, would prefer to be paying on my utility bill per month than having to cough up all the dough upfront and then wait to get my grant ..

The problem with the Bord Gais set up is that you are going to be out of pocket by a minimum of €1350 over 2 years which includes an upfront payment of €470.

For the size of house they have in mind Id expect to have it insulated by standard contract for around €1350 - €1500 maximum and when you deduct the grant you're looking at an out of pocket cost of €600 - €750.

Doesn't make any sense for anyone to go down this route other than being able to pay for it over 2 years. Why not go to the credit union and get a loan and have it paid back in 1 year for the same monthly repayments.

Zilog

Fair point Muffler.

Be interested u2thepale how your meeting goes nonetheless.

u2thepale

Your dead right Muffler, I didn't read the small print.....must remember my glasses next time:)

cookimixer you said there are grants for windows , I haven't seen this anywhere and was always something I wished the seai had incorporated into the grant system... where did you see this as would be interested if it was availbale!!! ??

BryanF

muffler your point should be outlined to a wider audience than this forum, I'm all for retro-fitting, in fact I think it must happen ASAP but the current situation is by now means ideal, no COP or building control for a start!
any pay as u save scheme should not be a money making scheme.

PauloMN

BryanF wrote: »

muffler your point should be outlined to a wider audience than this forum, I'm all for retro-fitting, in fact I think it must happen ASAP but the current situation is by now means ideal, no COP or building control for a start!
any pay as u save scheme should not be a money making scheme.

Agreed, typical Ireland though. Made even worse by the fact that you and I know that Bord Gais will be getting contractors to do that work for them a lot cheaper than you or I could get them for.

caesarthechimp

The problem here is that they (the govt.) are moving away from operating the grant schemes through independent operators, and handing over to the big energy utilities. Less hassle in administration, but the customer loses out.

At the start you had independent contractors and independent BER assessors all competing against each other and being checked up on by SEAI who then administered the grants.

Now we are moving towards the one stop shop model operated by ESB/Bord Gais where they look after the retrofit works, then give themselves a (very fine) BER rating, and then draw down the money direct from govt.

At least the choice is still there (for the moment) for the householder to get the grant money and works done independently.

vibe666

hi. i've been talking about getting the cavity walls insulated in the house as we find we lose heat very quickly in the winter even though i've put extra insulation strips around all the doors & windows.

so far though, i've never actually got round to doing it as i had assumed the cost to be a lot more than people have been quoted and didn't even know you could get grants for it. i honestly think that the house loses so much heat so quickly, that i'd probably save the cost of it within 2 years at most.

I do have two quick questions though if you don't mind?

i have a 4 bed semi in navan (one of the cheap thrown together ones that popped up everywhere in the last 10 years, brickwork at the bottom half and pebble dash at the top) and our attached neighbours are very noisy and the walls seem to be very thin so the sound really travels through. if we don't have our TV on the whole time, we can hear them arguing (sometimes even just talking if it's really quiet) and their baby crying etc.

if we get the insulation done (I'm thinking that the beads is the way to go based on the thread), would they do the wall between our house and theirs and if so, does it muffle at least some of the sound so we can get some peace & quiet?

the other thing is, we have an open fireplace so i was wondering if the insulation would be affected by the heat of the chimney?

thanks for your help, and if someone wouldn't mind sending me a quick PM with the names of a couple of the popular companies that service the meath area that would be great, thanks.

BryanF

I'm afraid you may need to consider a different solution for your party wall, there are acoustic broads on the market and the major drywall manufactures will have similar products.
regarding the fire place,the cav insulation shouldnt be effected (CAVEAT :If your house/ flue has been built to building regs) but if heat loss is the issue why not install a stove insert.

vibe666

i just don't have a lot to spend on it, partly because i don't have a huge amount of money to spare and partly because i don't plan on living in this house in the long term so i want to minimise what i spend on it.

i can live with spending up to €1000-1500 on the bead insulaton, but anything more than that is a non-runner.

and whilst it would be nice to muffle the neighbours a bit, it's not a deal breaker by any means, we've lived with it for 5 years already, we'll just have to leave the telly on.

BryanF

whats long term?
some would argue cavity insulation will pay back in 3-5 years and a cheap insert stove will only cost you in the region of €5-700 with a quick payback if you use solid fuel regularly, and if not it still removes a % of heat loss / draft.

If you are moving on, any relatively cheap, quick payback items such as these will help you to achieve a positive BER rating which in my opinion will become more n more popular among buyers as our winters continue to get colder.

vibe666

BryanF wrote: »

whats long term?
some would argue cavity insulation will pay back in 3-5 years and a cheap insert stove will only cost you in the region of €5-700 with a quick payback if you use solid fuel regularly, and if not it still removes a % of heat loss / draft.

If you are moving on, any relatively cheap, quick payback items such as these will help you to achieve a positive BER rating which in my opinion will become more n more popular among buyers as our winters continue to get colder.

possibly a silly question, but what exactly is a stove insert and how does it work?

d'Oracle

Enrate wrote: »

The problem here is that they (the govt.) are moving away from operating the grant schemes through independent operators, and handing over to the big energy utilities. Less hassle in administration, but the customer loses out.

The Govt, will still be operating grant schemes for retrofit for a few years.
The Utility company thing is being driven from Europe.

I'm not entirely convinced that the customer will lose out.

BryanF

the principle of pay as you save is great, it just maybe needs a German to administer it and anyone other than our government to legislate for it and schwarzenegger to enforce it, oh and a Code of practice too:D

Garville

Last week I had my cavity wall pumped. There was already 50mm board in there. The company came and did the cavity and the attic.

There weren't as many holes drilled as I thought. Along the gable at gutter level the holes were 1m apart, which I expected. Also, around the windows were covered well with about 5 holes. But on the larger sections of wall there were fewer holes and very spaced out. Near vents and around waste pipes were done, but I thought the walls would be all holed about 1m apart.

Is it true to say bonded beads spread easily and fill the cavity to the max? Is that why there isn't as many holes as i expected?

Also, while I'm typing, the grant system is great, but the pricing is a joke. I got quoted for cavity wall insulation and then realised I coundn't get a grant so I decided to have the attic topped up....at a cost of a coincidential €500, the grant amount!!

100mm was added to the attic, and a tank lagging jacket, and some chipboard for a walkway....€500 me eye. I had already lagged the pipes agaes ago so they went done. A few roles of 100mm insulation would be 150€ max, it's a shame the grant is being abused by installers cus they know they have you over a barrel. I got similar quotes from three other companies for cavity wall insulation, and just added the attic on after, and all of them charged €500 euro on the button to have the attic done.

Rant over, do bonded beads spread easily, are only a few holes needed?

muffler

Garville wrote: »

There weren't as many holes drilled as I thought. Along the gable at gutter level the holes were 1m apart,

Holes should be no more than 600mm apart horizontally. See section 2.4.5 on page 5 here


.

Quiksilver

@muffler is right. Max 600mm between +/- a few mm, every hole wouldn't me measured and marked with a measuring tape. The bead should flow pretty easily, the minimum cavity thickness that can be pumped is 25mm (I'm pretty sure that's right). Some contractors may add an extra row of hole between ceiling and floor to help insure full fill. Also the 600mm distance is only for the horizontal distance of the holes. with each row usually at ceiling level, plus around doors/windows.
I'm guessing you already had 200mm fibreglass in the attic. SEAI's requirements for the grant are getting ridiculous, the whole scheme need to be reformed, but i can't see that happening.

BryanF

Garville wrote: »

100mm was added to the attic, and a tank lagging jacket, and some chipboard for a walkway....€500 me eye. I had already lagged the pipes agaes ago so they went done. A few roles of 100mm insulation would be 150€ max, it's a shame the grant is being abused by installers cus they know they have you over a barrel.

may i ask whats roughly the floor area of the attic, is access easy, and how long did it take them? thanks

Antrim_Man

How can you be guaranteed that the cavity has been filled and that there is not large pockets that the beads have not filled afterwards???

BryanF

Antrim_Man wrote: »

How can you be guaranteed that the cavity has been filled and that there is not large pockets that the beads have not filled afterwards???

the only real way to know for certain is to get thermal imaging done

vibe666

BryanF wrote: »

the only real way to know for certain is to get thermal imaging done

do you know who could do that and how much it would cost?

i got my front wall beaded a couple of weeks ago as we have cavity blocks all the way up the side and they said they can't do anything with that other than putting an external layer of insulation on all the way along.

i can't say for sure how close together they drilled, but it was a lot of holes (I can check when i get home), but i think it was 3 lines, one below downstairs and upstairs windows and one along the top under the roof gutter.

we also got the front and back doors re-sealed and 120mm insulation in the attic as it was crappy stuff that was less than 40mm and we were losing a lot of heat through it.

they raised up all the floor beams in the attic and re-laid the few sheets of chipboard we had put down for storage and re-lagged the water tank and pipes. we also got a heat lamp put in near the water tank and froststat which will come on any time the temp in the attic drops below freezing, so we should be covered. oh, and a little tent thing to put over the entrance to the attic when we're not using it to stop heat going up through the el cheapo stira steps up there.

i think we're pretty much covered now anyways.

BryanF

vibe666 wrote: »

do you know who could do that and how much it would cost?

Google's your friend, although I'm sure there's a few on here who do it and that would probably be better than picking of the www

MicktheMan

vibe666 wrote: »

do you know who could do that and how much it would cost?

PM sent:)

vibe666

BryanF wrote: »

Google's your friend, although I'm sure there's a few on here who do it and that would probably be better than picking of the www

that was the plan.

Antrim_Man

Do none of the cavity wall bead fellas not provide a thermal image as part of the guarantee of their work????

PauloMN

Antrim_Man wrote: »

Do none of the cavity wall bead fellas not provide a thermal image as part of the guarantee of their work????

I'm just guessing here, but I would imagine that would double the price of the work if they did.

maddragon

You could get a separate expert to provide a thermal imaging scan for a couple of hundred euro.

Antrim_Man

maddragon wrote: »

You could get a separate expert to provide a thermal imaging scan for a couple of hundred euro.

And if it finds large areas not insulated do you get the bead company to come back and fill them and reimburse the cost of the thermal image? Could this be agreed before the work commences?

headmaster

I just want to add an interesting result to an experiment I carried out in the past few weeks. Aprox 5 years ago i got my own house and an investment property insulated (cavity). One property i used the pumped bead insulation, in the other i used the pumped fluffy type(mousey colour) insulation. I cannot remember the exact cost, but it was reasonable enough. Both houses are almost identical 4 bd room, 2500 sq ft detached houses, with hip roofs, so 4 equal walls to the eaves to be filled. As I said, recently i carried out the experiment by having both properties thermal imaged, to see was there any settlement of the insulation. The bead insulation had a ver slight settlement, very slight, in one corner of a south facing wall, the other insylation was exactly as the day it was done, perfect. I was delighted with both results, as i had been told that the fluffy stuff would have settled more, although my friend who did the imaging for me (free, as a favour) told me that the bead does settle ever so slightly more than the blown in fluffy stuff. I've no intention of topping up, as the amount is hardly worth talking about, but it goes to show that if it's well done, it really does stay there and do the job. I'm a happy camper and hope this of benefit to the forum and people who are wondering about it.

Moanin

PauloMN wrote: »

I'm just guessing here, but I would imagine that would double the price of the work if they did.

I asked the installer doing the job on my house last week the exact question and he said it would add alot of cost to the job.

MicktheMan

Moanin wrote: »

I asked the installer doing the job on my house last week the exact question and he said it would add alot of cost to the job.

Did you ask him if the ti survey would add alot to the cost or if having to do the pumping properly (because of the ti survey) would add a lot to the cost?

Antrim_Man

See the thing is, how do we know they have done the job properly. Its not as if we can inspect it

deus ex machina 7

I have been reading this thread because I recently built a house - for under 50,000 euro - but decided to go with natural fibre insulation rather than the beads and fibreglass. The reason for this is health. One poster here talked of an asthma condition triggered by synthetic insulation. There are many problems with this type of insulation which needs further research in terms of the impact on health, specifically auto-immune diseases - see for example sick building syndrome. In any case, I went with German wood fibre inside the walls and natural wool for the attic, bought from a local wool merchant in east Galway. It is very possible that in time to come much of this synthetic insulation will have to be removed from houses because of health issues. I', new to these boards and this is just a thought.

muffler

Antrim_Man wrote: »

See the thing is, how do we know they have done the job properly. Its not as if we can inspect it

As stated above it can be inspected but its gonna cost.

What I advise people to do is ask the installers if they are guaranteeing that the cavity will be completely full. If they are in any way honest at all you get them to agree that when you get the thermal imaging done and if it shows any missed patches they will return, complete the job and pay for the cost of the TI. If the TI shows up a good result then the customer pays for it.

Alternatively they can be told before the work starts that you intend getting the TI done (even though you're not) and if there's anything amiss they will have to come back. That on it's own will guarantee you a good installation nine times out of ten.