Frank McCourt

Kess73

Was having a conversation about him last night, and have started to notice that an awful lot of people refer to him as a Limerick man, and refer to him as being Limerick born, and one of the best examples of an Irish born and educated author.


I am just curious as to whether this is a common belief about him or do most know that he was born in America, and received all of his second and third level education in America, as he only received a basic primary school education in Limerick during the 15 years he spent in Limerick when his family moved back here from America.

Is he a true Limerickman in the eyes of folk here, or do people tend to take the view that Richard Harris had on him, that he had, in the opinion of Harris, a terrible attitude towards Limerick and it's people, and that McCourt's first book, Angela's Ashes, was just a way to cash in on the Irish market both in Ireland and in America.


If Frank McCourt had not brought out Angela's Ashes and instead only wrote the four other books that carry his name, would he have ever been lauded in this city? Bearing in mind that up until he wrote Angela's Ashes and when it was released in 1996, when McCourt was 66, he was pretty much an unknown to the vast majority in Ireland, and had never been regarded as an example of a literary export from Limerick.


So a true Limerickman who did the city proud, or an American man who lived in Ireland for 16.5 years (15 years as a kid and 1.5 years later in life when trying for a Phd from Trinity) out of the 78 years he lived, but whose book brought attention to Limerick on a huge scale.

munstergirl

I would say it does not matter now he is dead rip.

Loved angelas ashes great book. (whether all parts were true or not)

niallers1

Angelas ashes was one of the most entertaining books I've ever read.

I think he got it spot on.

His other books were not so great.

pappyodaniel

I never knew you were Gerry Hannan!

McCourt is more Irish than half of our International football team. But I for one think he represents a lot of what was bad about Ireland and good about America.

Ireland: Poverty, hunger, illness, the Church, Alcoholism and narrow mindedness.
America: Land of opportunity.

His books are a real rags to riches story (not literally rags or riches but he realised his ambition of becoming a teacher). I don't think he could have gotten the opportunity here in Ireland at the time. Luckily things have changed astronomically in this country and the Ireland Frank left would have been so far removed from the Ireland he visited the last time he was here.

Kess73

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I never knew you were Gerry Hannan!

McCourt is more Irish than half of our International football team. But I for one think he represents a lot of what was bad about Ireland and good about America.

Ireland: Poverty, hunger, illness, the Church, Alcoholism and narrow mindedness.
America: Land of opportunity.

His books are a real rags to riches story (not literally rags or riches but he realised his ambition of becoming a teacher). I don't think he could have gotten the opportunity here in Ireland at the time. Luckily things have changed astronomically in this country and the Ireland Frank left would have been so far removed from the Ireland he visited the last time he was here.

I had to google Gerry Hannan to see what you were getting at there.

And no, I am not Gerry Hannan nor do I share many of the views that he has on Angela's Ashes. I think the only people who can really contest or agree with what McCourt said about living in Limerick back then are people who lived through the same times.

I was just curious how people saw McCourt in terms of whether they saw him as a Limerick man, despite him not being born in Ireland, and despite him living in America for most of his life.

Me I see him as a guy whose family moved to Limerick when he was young, and who left the country as soon as he was old enough to do so. He then seemed to have made the most of any opportunities that where available in the States and through a mixture of hard work, brass neck, and luck he went on to make a decent life for himself.

Then at some point in his later life he saw another opportunity and wrote his first book and when it took off, he made the most of it and milked his Limerick connection, and that is not knocking him, for all it was worth.

I don't see him as a Limerick man, but I do see him as a man who, unintentionally at first, caused a spotlight to be fixed upon Limerick for a time, which was a very positive thing imho. I see it as being an awful lot like how Daniel Day Lewis often gets called Irish in the Irish media.

Jofspring

I wouldn't know personally as i'm only in my 20's but any older people (grandparents etc...) that i talk to say McCourt totally over exaggerated everything and basically was a spoofer to a certain extent. He certainly wouldn't be a favourite amoungst the people from the actually era he was writing about.

topper75

I'm happy to claim him as a Limerickman.

There was dreadful snobbery in those days - a wicked class system inherited from the English and definitely encouraged by clergy.

There was an exhibhition there lately in the Hunt showing old photographs from the start of the 20th century. There was one of well-off folk in the Stella and I immediately remembered Frank's description of same and his alienation from it.
There are still rich and poor today in Limerick but I don't think naked aggressive snobbery is acceptable anymore. Good riddance.

I'll say one thing for Hannan - he wrote his own stuff. Most bitter knockers of McCourt wouldn't write an address on an envelope for you.

pappyodaniel

Kess73 wrote: »

Me I see him as a guy whose family moved to Limerick when he was young, and who left the country as soon as he was old enough to do so. He then seemed to have made the most of any opportunities that where available in the States and through a mixture of hard work, brass neck, and luck he went on to make a decent life for himself.

Then at some point in his later life he saw another opportunity and wrote his first book and when it took off, he made the most of it and milked his Limerick connection, and that is not knocking him, for all it was worth.

I don't see him as a Limerick man, but I do see him as a man who, unintentionally at first, caused a spotlight to be fixed upon Limerick for a time, which was a very positive thing imho. I see it as being an awful lot like how Daniel Day Lewis often gets called Irish in the Irish media.

Frank spent his formative years in Limerick City, the years that were to have the biggest affect on him for the rest of his life so I think he's Limerick to the bones. True that he moved here at a young age but his mother was originally from the city before emigrating and returning from New York.

I don't think he milked anything really, T'Is picked up where Angela's Ashes finished and Teacher Man were his memoirs from teaching in schools across NY. McCourt was in his mid sixties when he finished Angela's Ashes and winning a Pulitzer. I suppose he felt that he had finally found his voice but the clock was ticking.

Kess73

pappyodaniel wrote: »

Frank spent his formative years in Limerick City, the years that were to have the biggest affect on him for the rest of his life so I think he's Limerick to the bones. True that he moved here at a young age but his mother was originally from the city before emigrating and returning from New York.

I don't think he milked anything really, T'Is picked up where Angela's Ashes finished and Teacher Man were his memoirs from teaching in schools across NY. McCourt was in his mid sixties when he finished Angela's Ashes and winning a Pulitzer. I suppose he felt that he had finally found his voice but the clock was ticking.

I did not mean that him milking it, in my opinion of course, was a bad thing or a slight against him. I meant it more as another opportunity presenting itself in how the book took off, and he made the most of that opportunity in terms of making money and how it opened the door for him to write more books and get them published.



I think the fact that he was American born, and that he moved back to America as soon as he was old enough to, and that he chose to see out his life there when he was retired and financially secure kinda makes me think he regarded himself as American deep down.

I don't have any strong opinions about him one way or another, it was just the conversation from last night, that I had where some of the people I was talking to were convinced that he was born and bred in Limerick and that he only moved to America late in life, made me wonder what the majority view was on him in terms of whether he was seen as a Limerickman, an Irishman, or an American, and also did most peiople know of his background or was it just best guesses.

Plus as there was a Limerick link in all of it, I thought I would post it in this forum as it beats the Limerick is awful/Limerick is the best type threads that seem to find no middle ground.:)

Mc Love

I think that a lot of the people that begrudge him and mock him, were jealous of his success and life in America.

Kess73

Mc Love wrote: »

I think that a lot of the people that begrudge him and mock him, were jealous of his success and life in America.

That is probably quite a bit of truth in that. I have to say that I found Angela's Ashes to be nothing special, and that I only read it in the first place because of where the story was based. But one can not think too highly of a writer's book(s), and still respect the hard work the writer in question had to have put in during his life to get to where he got.

osarusan

There is a story in McCarthy's Bar where Pete McCarthy asks McCourt where he feels at home, and McCourt is recorded as replying 'New York' instantly and definitively.

How much to read into that is your choice, but it does hint at how he saw himself.

MyKeyG

My Grandmother said he exaggerated as well but I'd find it hard to judge him too harshly. While he may have massaged the facts a little it's clear his life in Ireland was one racked with misery, not that he was alone in that. If by comparrison America gave him some semblance of success then it's hard to judge him for embracing it.

topper75

Frank was wild about New York. As is Malachy. (as I am myself!)

He felt it to be his home. But I don't think that stops us anyone being a Limerickman.

Frank talks a bit about it in a great documentary called 'Home' by Dubliner (living in Inagh, Clare) Alan Cooke. Trailer here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYol1Q5zqM

Ye might also enjoy this old footage of the Irish in NY "back in the day":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frUzUhpHuVg&feature=related

alrightcuz

its not that hard to find the people from the book most are still around and still are from the same areas his a pick and his mother was a saint who like any limerick woman would do anything to protect her kids and family frank is a draged up yupy from america whos useing his parents roots to make some money,,,,, He never was a limerick man to begin with

MyKeyG

alrightcuz wrote: »

its not that hard to find the people from the book most are still around and still are from the same areas his a pick and his mother was a saint who like any limerick woman would do anything to protect her kids and family frank is a draged up yupy from america whos useing his parents roots to make some money,,,,, He never was a limerick man to begin with

I dunno they couldn't afford rent but she always managed cigarettes but maybe that was his twisted interpretation as well?

Mc Love

alrightcuz wrote: »

its not that hard to find the people from the book most are still around and still are from the same areas his a pick and his mother was a saint who like any limerick woman would do anything to protect her kids and family frank is a draged up yupy from america whos useing his parents roots to make some money,,,,, He never was a limerick man to begin with

Very interesting post

iguana

I'm not sure on quite what grounds people can know he exaggerated? There are people in modern, middleclass homes who live in poverty because of an alcoholic parent. Nobody has too much of a clue what goes on behind closed doors.

Oh and according to wiki he never had second level education. He had primary level in Ireland and wasn't accepted into secondary. Years later after being discharged from the US army he managed to get a probationary acceptance into university.

MyKeyG

iguana wrote: »

I'm not sure on quite what grounds people can know he exaggerated? There are people in modern, middleclass homes who live in poverty because of an alcoholic parent. Nobody has too much of a clue what goes on behind closed doors.

I don't think the accusation
is that he exaggerated the misery of his family life but rather the conditions that even the lowest classes lived in.

Irish Wolf

As a blow-in, just for my own information, who or what is a "true Limerickman"?

Is there a 5-step process?

Kess73

Irish Wolf wrote: »

As a blow-in, just for my own information, who or what is a "true Limerickman"?

Is there a 5-step process?

I would guess that it would change based on individual opinions.


My take on McCourt was that he was not a Limerick man, and I based that on him being born in America, and because he lived 62 of his 78 years there, and on the fact that McCourt in interviews had said that he is an American with Irish roots rather than an Irishman who lived in America.

I know that some of this thread has little digs at the man, but that was not my intention when I started the thread. I was simply curious as to how whether people saw him as a Limerickman or as a man born in another country who lived in Limerick for a small portion of his life span.

The conversation I had about him that prompted me to make the thread had people saying that he was a Limerickman and that he was born here and grew up in Limerick before moving to America in later life, which made me think that maybe that is the perception of the man held by Limerick folk.

As I said earlier in the thread, I have no strong feelings, positive or negative, regarding the man, and I do think that his first book did far more good for Limerick than harm.

Crea

I don't understand how people can argue that this didn't happen. My grandparents lived near the lanes where the McCourts lived. My grandfather used to work for the corporation and used to have to visit the area as part of his work and used to bring my father with him sometimes. When my father read Angelas Ashes he said that this is exactly how people lived. In fact you don't have to go back that far to have seen people living in such poverty.
25 years ago, when I was in my early teens my mother brought me to a house while she was doing some charity work. The family had to live downstairs because the roof leaked upstairs. There was a bed in the kitchen and the living room and one of the kids took great pride in showing me the present Santa gave him - wellington boots.

Was he a Limerick man? That depends on his own attitude. If he considered himself an American with Irish roots then he's not a Limerick man. My husbands father was born in Leitrim and emigarated to England when he was 15 but despite living there for 50 years he would forever consider himself Irish.