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Property Tax To Increase Rents
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Why should the tenants pay a property tax ?
They do not own or will ever own the asset.
Look at it as an tax on an asset.
And please do not come quoting how the bank owns the asset and not the owner.
In the UK and the US the resident pays the tax regardless if they are renting or own. Which is the way it should be. Imposing a property tax on landlords/owner occupiers would kill the property market, as it would force more people to sell and there would be even more of a reason to rent.
Also what about all the relatively well off young professionals who are earning good money and renting. This would not hit them and would completely discourage them from buying.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
And yet other countries have property taxes and property markets in much better shape than Ireland's.Imposing a property tax on landlords/owner occupiers would kill the property market, as it would force more people to sell and there would be even more of a reason to rent.
Also what about all the relatively well off young professionals who are earning good money and renting. This would not hit them and would completely discourage them from buying.0 -
Sorry I meant imposing it on just owner occupiers/landlords will kill property market, if its being done it should be for all residents.0
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JMayo, you insist on promoting this stupid myth about rent allowance so maybe you should inform yourself to the reality of what the rent allowance rather are and what it is like to be a rent allowance tenant.
Massive rent allowance? Where on earth are you getting this info from?One thing you are forgetting is the little matter of the government providing massive rent allowance that is keeping an artifical floor on rents.
The very very max for a single person renting in the Dublin area is €529 pm and for a single person sharing is €390.
Todays Daft. No. of one beds for rent in same Dublin area .............995
Todays Daft. No. of one beds for rent accepting RA and within cap....35
No, that is sheer and utter bollícks being sprouted about €2k properties (lol), so off the mark that there is no way anyone can take your assumption seriously that the rent allwoance system stills skews the entire market!Now I know there probably would not be a any €2,000 a month properties with rent allowance tenants, but the rent allowance system still skews the entire market..
The rent allowance caps are way BELOW the market rate. This is why it is so much easier for renters who are not reliant on rent allowance!rent allowance and rents will have to fall as lots of renters could not afford the rents ..
oh great.I am a big proponent of cutting rent allowance as it is unfair on renters who are not in receipt of it, renters whose taxes are probably being used to be pay some renters too high a rent.
At present out of my disability benefit in shared accomodation, I pay my landlord an extra €26 from my disability benefit, and that's with the max amount of RA available to a single person in shared accom in this country.
So, in addition to welfare being slashed on 7 Dec budget, you would advocate a slash in rent allowance. Okay, would you like to negotiate with my landlord why he should drop the rent specifically for me in the household? or ask him not to evict me because, sorry, I just can't make the rent anymore?
I agree. Social housing was overlooked in the greed years. Nonetheless, the very occassional landlord is not greedy, and accepts rent allowance from RA tenants who are at serious risk of no longer being able to afford even these reduced tenancy rates, ie rent.Also why should the taxpayers of the country pay big chunk of investors mortgages ?
TBH, your flagrant ignorance in your postings disgust me.0 -
I'd be more accepting of Rent allowance if it was paid directly to the Landlord, as opposed to being paid to the Tenant by cheque.
It's still too much in any case.0 -
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It is not paid by cheque.I'd be more accepting of Rent allowance if it was paid directly to the Landlord, as opposed to being paid to the Tenant by cheque..
The tenant collects the very reduced amount of rent allowance from the post office each week the rest is left to them to make up the difference.
In my case, €114 pm.
Why do you think there would be any difference if this amount was paid directly to the landlord?
The RA tenant still has to subsidise the difference. How does a portion of the sum of the rent being paid directly to the landlord be any different from another tenant who is not on RA?
Justify this statment please?It's still too much in any case.0 -
What form does it have when collected from the post office, and who is it made out to?.It is not paid by cheque.
The tenant collects the very reduced amount of rent allowance from the post office each week the rest is left to them to make up the difference.
In my case, €114 pm.
Not sure I have to, but I'll bite.Justify this statment please?
Its a lot of money simply given to subsidise the Rental Property Industry.
I note you mention that you are on Disability, which would make what I'm about to say sound a little bit cold. It does not necessarily apply to you, please remember.
There are plenty of people receiving rent allowance who are more than capable of going out and working for their money, but choose not to, because this is a little easier.
Single Person Renting who's on minimum wage and working 40 hours a week, earns 1384 euros in total for 4 weeks work. They have to pay rent from this too - why would you work if you knew you were going to get up to 529 or 390 in Rent allowance as well as 800 euros Dole for the same 4 weeks for not working?.
As Long as the Government continues to pay these amounts, it creates a minimum rent amount that the those not entitled to Social Welfare or Rent allowance need to compete with having to pay this direct from their wage packets.
In reality, the Government should never have allowed a situation where they were paying this amount in Rent allowances in the first instance.0 -
You sure do, baby, you made the sweeping statement.Not sure I have to, but I'll bite..
.Its a lot of money simply given to subsidise the Rental Property Industry. ..
As per my previous post. Reality check. 995 1 bed properties avail in Dublin, 35 are within RA cap limits and accept rent allowance
.There are plenty of people receiving rent allowance who are more than capable of going out and working for their money, but choose not to, because this is a little easier...
Ara, bollíx. There are a very small percantage of the pyjama lifestylers stigmatised in every western society, but the majority cannot get work for legitimate reasons.
so, that works out at €346 pw which is NOT TAXED on PRSI, whereas the dole recepient like myself receives €196pw in theory, but in reality that is less than €170 after you have paid out contribution to the FULL rate of rent allowance.Single Person Renting who's on minimum wage and working 40 hours a week, earns 1384 euros in total for 4 weeks work. They have to pay rent from this too - why would you work if you knew you were going to get up to 529 or 390 in Rent allowance as well as 800 euros Dole for the same 4 weeks for not working?.
Again need I quote the rates of RA available and how hard it is to find these below market rate RA accomadation with landlords who are decent enough not to be stupidly prejudiced in accepting RA?As Long as the Government continues to pay these amounts, it creates a minimum rent amount that the those not entitled to Social Welfare or Rent allowance need to compete with having to pay this direct from their wage packets.
As I stated, Tonight on Daft.ie
I bed apts in Dub 995 available
1 bed apts in Dub within rent allowance limits and acceting of RA 350 -
Ara, bollíx. There are a very small percantage of the pyjama lifestylers stigmatised in every western society, but the majority cannot get work for legitimate reasons.
A high percentage in my opinion seeing them every day. At least 3 pyjama lifestylers live in my apt complex on rent allowance. Oh, they have kids as rent allowance limits is based on the number of humans claiming, not on bedrooms.Again need I quote the rates of RA available and how hard it is to find these below market rate RA accomadation with landlords who are decent enough not to be stupidly prejudiced in accepting RA?
As I stated, Tonight on Daft.ie
I bed apts in Dub 995 available
1 bed apts in Dub within rent allowance limits and acceting of RA 35
Here we go again. The govt control 50% of the private rental sector. Thats 90,000+ humans. Alot of these are ahem single mothers and couples with or without children but having kids helps you get a higher level.
There is hardly much difference between a 1bed price and 2bed price as 1beds have been marketed as for couples when in fact they have the space only for a singleton. Many LL will accept rent allowance when they do not state it in their adverts. Also, other rent allowance claimants are in long term accommodation and do not move hence the daft stats are seriously skewed.
If I as a single renter paying 1000 a mth in rent lost my job tomorrow and ended up on rent allowance, i'd be only entitled to that 529 before the means test is even applied so I certainly know how a bad deal I would get.
If the govt changed the rules tomorrow saying 1bed apts will only get a max of 529 for single people and lets say 650 for 2 people in Dublin, you'd be 100% guaranteed that rents will meet this level as I said earlier, landlords need the cash and more importantly they will not find 90,000 humans to fill the vacancies if they evict them some or all of them.0 -
.You sure do, baby, you made the sweeping statement.
How very nice for you to be able to decide the rules of Internet discussion.
DAFT is not the only place where you can find a Rental property. There are plenty properties that are not advertised on DAFT.As per my previous post. Reality check. 995 1 bed properties avail in Dublin, 35 are within RA cap limits and accept rent allowance
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Ara Bollix - there are too many of them, and there are many who simply could not be arsed.Ara, bollíx. There are a very small percantage of the pyjama lifestylers stigmatised in every western society, but the majority cannot get work for legitimate reasons.
I'm not sure what your point is - do you expect that someone on minimum wage should get the same amount as people who do nothing, or do you actually think it's OK that the earn a smidge more than you for putting in 160 hours of graft in a 4 week period, which works out at about 2 euros an hour when you take into account what they would be entitled to on the Dole?.so, that works out at €346 pw which is NOT TAXED on PRSI, whereas the dole recepient like myself receives €196pw in theory, but in reality that is less than €170 after you have paid out contribution to the FULL rate of rent allowance.
God forbid if they have to get any form of public transport to or from work, they'd be worse off than you again.Again need I quote the rates of RA available and how hard it is to find these below market rate RA accomadation with landlords who are decent enough not to be stupidly prejudiced in accepting RA?
As I stated, Tonight on Daft.ie
I bed apts in Dub 995 available
1 bed apts in Dub within rent allowance limits and acceting of RA 35
Again, DAFT isn't the only place to find a rental property.
And as Gurramonk stated - are you only taking the 35 as the ones who stated they would accept Rent allowance, or did all 960 of those you have excluded explicitly state they would not accept rent allowance?.
I'm sorry, but the country can no longer afford to pay for the priveleges that people got used to from the crazy days of the boom. There are plenty hardships for those who work for a living, it should not be any easier for those who choose not to.0 -
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Yes that is what should happen.The govt control 50% of the market, about 90,000+ humans. If RA was reduced tomorrow, the landlords will not find that many people to lease their properties to if ahem they refused to renew the rents at the lower rates. And if as you say that alot of them are in trouble, they will take every cent they can get.
If they get screwed, tough sh1t. They are business people and giving them borrowed money via welfare is less of a priority than feeding people on the dole for example.
Do you think the govt. should stop paying out rent allowance altogether?
Just based on my opinion, like I said I've seen alot of them come out of the wood work in the past year or so.Based on what? I certainly do not see an avalanche of renters.
Also, the rates for RA vary alot and the amount given is ultimatly up the Community Welfare Officer.
When I was on RA, the CWO gave me €320 p/m, which was just over half my rent. I was single person sharing a two bed with one other person.
CWO said it was extremely uncommon to fork out someones full rent rate.
This rate stayed constant but just before I was due to sing off, I got a letter saying the rate was being cut by about €30.
With this in mind, I had to make up the rest with my JSA, and then when I factored in utilities etc.. it cut things very thin.
I was grateful but I certainly wasn't 'living it up'.0 -
Afaik single mothers get €800 p/m for a 3 bed property and €900 p/m for a 4 bed property, and from my experience there are SO many people cheating the system by saying they are single mothers when actually they have a partner living with them.
I'm not sure RA should be cut but I think each applicant should be vetted as much as possible. When applying for RA I think you should have to submit at least 5 different job applications with correspondance from the employer and everything. Those employers could then be contacted to verify the details and to make sure the applicant didn't actually turn down the job if offerred. If the applicant is granted welfare they should have to submit 3 new job applications every month or the allowance will be stopped. I know this might seems unrealistic but it's hardly that much more work for each welfare officer to carry out this procedure. I don't care that it may be annoying for people on SW to have to jump through these hoops - they should want to work and not want the rest of us to be paying for their fukcing house!
There are far too many people who are choosing to apply for RA rather than work. It is complete and utter bullsh!t in my opinion as there are people out there busting their balls and getting less than them. I'm in full time employment and the financial stress i'm under is really difficult to deal with. I'm really struggling to pay my rent and my bills yet I see people on SW who are getting 3 widescreen tvs for their house and sky digital in every room (just one example).
The Government have to regulate the applicants more closely as at the moment it really is being painted as a far easier way to live.
Obviously none of the above applies to people who can't work and I do accept that there are so many good hard working people drawing SW and I fell terribly for them, but the absolute scumbags of this earth are cheating the system and it grinds my gears like nothing else can. I don't care if they're the minority or majority but they should be stopped.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
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senordingdong wrote: »Yes that is what should happen.
Do you think the govt. should stop paying out rent allowance altogether?
No, there are always genuine cases. As I said in the other post, they should change the system so that 1bed apts are meant for single people so people like you can get proper accommodation rather than basing the system on the amount of humans claiming which has tipped the whole system in favour of families.senordingdong wrote: »Just based on my opinion, like I said I've seen alot of them come out of the wood work in the past year or so.
Also, the rates for RA vary alot and the amount given is ultimatly up the Community Welfare Officer.
When I was on RA, the CWO gave me €320 p/m, which was just over half my rent. I was single person sharing a two bed with one other person.
CWO said it was extremely uncommon to fork out someones full rent rate.
This rate stayed constant but just before I was due to sing off, I got a letter saying the rate was being cut by about €30.
With this in mind, I had to make up the rest with my JSA, and then when I factored in utilities etc.. it cut things very thin.
I was grateful but I certainly wasn't 'living it up'.
I hear ya. I would be in the same position if I lost my job tomorrow, single people are treated disgracefully by the system. And if you had savings for that rainy day, you are penalised unfairly on both counts.(rent and JSA)0 -
Furthermore, I didn't like being on the dole one bit and did everything I could to get off of it asap.
I've come to the conclusion that it takes a special breed of people to be happy with this type of lifestyle.Afaik single mothers get €800 p/m for a 3 bed property and €900 p/m for a 4 bed property, and from my experience there are SO many people cheating the system by saying they are single mothers when actually they have a partner living with them.
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I wonder if this system, in any way is accomodating the old day mentality that a mother needs to be at home all day 'raising' the children? And therefore it is ok for a single mother to live like this.
I think they're better off than un-single people.gurramok wrote:single people are treated disgracefully by the system
If you live with your partner and he/she is still in employment, a claimant will get nothing. That is sick imo.0 -
senordingdong wrote:I think they're better off than un-single people.
If you live with your partner and he/she is still in employment, a claimant will get nothing. That is sick imo.
Its an anti-work measure alright. It should be on a sliding scale of means testing, not a blanket ban from rent allowance if your partner works or if you take up more than 30hrs work by yourself.
What I was saying that the rent level available to a single person is a disgrace as the system treats accommodation prices in favour of couples/families where their choice of accommodation is superior to what a singleton can get.
On the other hand, if a singleton bought a house by himself, the support available is equal to the support given to a buyer couple. They both get the moratorium and interest holidays if things go wrong like a job loss.0 -
i always thought property taxes were paying for services (certainly in other juristictions thats the case) sewage, roads, street cleaning etc etc certainly thats what rates/polltax/council tax is designed to do. which is why the occupier (be they owner or tenant pay it)
whilst here it is being seen as a tax on an asset because somehow people who rent dont use services (now this is understandable here councils, who dont seem to provide much are, basically centrally funded apart from motor fund and business rates)
or am i missing something0 -
any logical country charges the user........
so we'll probably do the opposite
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JMayo, you insist on promoting this stupid myth about rent allowance so maybe you should inform yourself to the reality of what the rent allowance rather are and what it is like to be a rent allowance tenant.
Massive rent allowance? Where on earth are you getting this info from?
The very very max for a single person renting in the Dublin area is €529 pm and for a single person sharing is €390.
...
Does it every cross your mind that the amounts being paid by the government, in other words divied up by the taxpayers like me and others, helps keep rents higher than they should be in the current market.
If taxpayers were not contributing €529pm then don't you think that landlords would have to drop their rents.
Either drop rents or have no tenant.TBH, your flagrant ignorance in your postings disgust me.
And you know what disgusts me ?
It is the fact that the normal taxpayers, are considered a sponge that can be squezzed and squezzed for every last drop, by both the ones at the bottom and the top.
You mention you have disability so fair enough.
But how many more are just leeching off the system.
I know of one landlord whose whole empire was tenants that were either so called refugees or long term unemployed.
His little empire was being funded to a large degree by the taxpayer.
Do you think that is right ?
The gas thing is a lot of the ones harping on about refugees coming here getting free accomodation are often the very ones long term leeching off the system.
Any able bodied person that could not provide valid reason why they should not have had a job between 2004 and 2007 should have been kicked off all social welfare schemes.
Instead bertie the socialist listened to some priest harp on about the vulnerable and gave nice raises.
You know who are the real vulnerable in this cocked up country ?
It is the taxpayers who earn enough to be taxed, too much to get anything free, but not enough to avail of fancy accountants and lawyers to find new ways to siphon funds off.
They get shag all except squezzed from every side.I am not allowed discuss …
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Not all landlords are by choice. My wife and I both had small apartments we couldn't sell - despite a year of trying. We had to buy a house because we have two small children.
Now we have two rental properties were the mortgage is 50% higher than the rents. When you deduct management fees and rental income tax and 200 a year tax on each for the council, we lose thousands.
When the property tax adds 3k next year I think we mig lose all three of our homes as we are barely coping now.
If a fianna fail politician dares call at my door I will punch him..especially as my td is lenihan0 -
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Does it every cross your mind that the amounts being paid by the government, in other words divied up by the taxpayers like me and others, helps keep rents higher than they should be in the current market.
I do not know where to start or begin with this argument with you, but how on earth are tenants supposed to negotiate this decrease in RA with landlords? Do you have any idea how many of us are scared shytless of potenial eviction because we cannot afford the rent?If taxpayers were not contributing €529pm then don't you think that landlords would have to drop their rents.
Either drop rents or have no tenant..
I do agree that rents are too high, but what is the point of leaving those most vulnerable in society trying to reason and argue this with a landlord on threat of eviction? There are still very, very few places for rent that accept RA, and you really should see some of the condition of these places. Threshold has, and they are actively campaigning for standards to be improved for these shoddy hell holes.And you know what disgusts me ?
It is the fact that the normal taxpayers, are considered a sponge that can be squezzed and squezzed for every last drop, by both the ones at the bottom and the top.
What about the lowest tier of society that the lowest level of taxpayers are almost rubbing shoulders with, should we not be getting together to understand these problems together rather than trying to divide amongst us who is working and who is not?You mention you have disability so fair enough.
But how many more are just leeching off the system..
You know what, I reckon they are few, and the 'system' have had the technology to pick up on the chancers, but its been too much effort too. Why, oh why cannot you reserve your anger for the real frauds-the higher echelon types who have screwed the system for millions for their own benefit?I know of one landlord whose whole empire was tenants that were either so called refugees or long term unemployed.
His little empire was being funded to a large degree by the taxpayer.
Do you think that is right ?..
No he is a slum landlord, have existed for far too long. This is why we need proper legislation that does not leave the tenant at the mercy of the unscrupulous landlord when they are trying to plead why they cannot afford the rent due to RA reductions in the budget.The gas thing is a lot of the ones harping on about refugees coming here getting free accomodation are often the very ones long term leeching off the system.
Any able bodied person that could not provide valid reason why they should not have had a job between 2004 and 2007 should have been kicked off all social welfare schemes.?..
Didn't realiase I had the illness that I had, nonetheless, that was nothing to do with the 261 job rejections I received during that period, despite earning a masters degree at my own expense to enable me access these positions.0 -
So yesterday RTE reported an increase in rents.
I wonder if this is a new trend forming.
When it's broken down like that I can sympathise...but three homes...?pablo wrote:Not all landlords are by choice. My wife and I both had small apartments we couldn't sell - despite a year of trying. We had to buy a house because we have two small children.
Now we have two rental properties were the mortgage is 50% higher than the rents. When you deduct management fees and rental income tax and 200 a year tax on each for the council, we lose thousands.
When the property tax adds 3k next year I think we mig lose all three of our homes as we are barely coping now.
If a fianna fail politician dares call at my door I will punch him..especially as my td is lenihan0 -
senordingdong wrote: »So yesterday RTE reported an increase in rents.
I wonder if this is a new trend forming.
Yes, its a wonder indeed in parts of Dublin for example. Perhaps people(who have a job and have not been prudent in saving on a monthly basis) cannot get a mortgage and are renting instead. Rents going up will be disastrous for the economy, we need cheaper accommodation and a reduction in Rent Supplement will help.0 -
Yes, its a wonder indeed in parts of Dublin for example. Perhaps people(who have a job and have not been prudent in saving on a monthly basis) cannot get a mortgage and are renting instead. Rents going up will be disastrous for the economy, we need cheaper accommodation and a reduction in Rent Supplement will help.
This is what I was talkin about a few pages back about lots of renters coming out of the woodwork.
I think there's some truth in the idea that married couples etc... are renting instead of buying.
Someone suggested to me that some landlords (specifically letting companies) may be purposely holding out for a recovery, instead of conceding to lower rates. Believing that the hit they take from the flat lieing idle, could be smaller then the long term hit they would take from lowering the rates.0 -
Though when the bottom of the sales market is reached, there will be an outflux of some renters from the rental market. Together with the economic situation, there is no bright future for rents long term.0
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At the end of the day. you may not pay the property tax of €80pm on your present rent when it comes in, BUT, if you move to another new place, the new landlord will have added it onto the rent already and you will be paying it, simple as that people. Nothing we can do about it really.0
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readyletsgo wrote: »At the end of the day. you may not pay the property tax of €80pm on your present rent when it comes in, BUT, if you move to another new place, the new landlord will have added it onto the rent already and you will be paying it, simple as that people. Nothing we can do about it really.
They(LL) already pay 200 quid a yr in property tax. The new proposal is for home owners yes?0 -
Though when the bottom of the sales market is reached, there will be an outflux of some renters from the rental market. Together with the economic situation, there is no bright future for rents long term.
Do you not think large numbers of reneters snapping up cheap homes would be good for rent rates?0 -
At the moment if you take the average price of a dwelling as 200k and the average rent as 1k per month then the return on the investment is 6 percent per annum gross.
Probably many landlords bought at the boom when prices were closer to 300k and are now fielding bigger mortgages than the 200k. The cost of this borrowing means tha many landlords are not making money on their rentals and are having to put money in to keep the house.
As prices are set to fall further there will be very few people coming into the rental sector. Over time there will be fewer houses available for rent as all new occupiers chose to rent instead of buying and existing renters hold on to their properties for longer as there is no incentive to move into an owner occupier house. As the cost of money goes up ( Savings now attract 5% gross with no effort or work involved to get the money, govt bonds are at a crazy 9%......) then investers will go for the easy option and stop buying houses for rent.
Increased job mobility and lack of security in jobs will mean that people will be increasingly forced into renting temporary accomodation at a distance from their family home and this will increase demand for rental accomodation.
Increased uncertainty, marital discord over money etc will increase demand for rental accomodation as more marriages break up.
In the short term if rent allowances are reduced there may be a small reduction in rents because of this but in the long term, with people too scared to enter the renting business rents will go up in certain areas of high job mobility and movement, eg cities and towns on the East coast and probably the university amd tourist towns.0 -
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At the moment if you take the average price of a dwelling as 200k and the average rent as 1k per month then the return on the investment is 6 percent per annum gross.
Probably many landlords bought at the boom when prices were closer to 300k and are now fielding bigger mortgages than the 200k. The cost of this borrowing means tha many landlords are not making money on their rentals and are having to put money in to keep the house.
As prices are set to fall further there will be very few people coming into the rental sector. Over time there will be fewer houses available for rent as all new occupiers chose to rent instead of buying and existing renters hold on to their properties for longer as there is no incentive to move into an owner occupier house. As the cost of money goes up ( Savings now attract 5% gross with no effort or work involved to get the money, govt bonds are at a crazy 9%......) then investers will go for the easy option and stop buying houses for rent.
Increased job mobility and lack of security in jobs will mean that people will be increasingly forced into renting temporary accomodation at a distance from their family home and this will increase demand for rental accomodation.
Increased uncertainty, marital discord over money etc will increase demand for rental accomodation as more marriages break up.
In the short term if rent allowances are reduced there may be a small reduction in rents because of this but in the long term, with people too scared to enter the renting business rents will go up in certain areas of high job mobility and movement, eg cities and towns on the East coast and probably the university amd tourist towns.
But as people who possess multiple properties go bankrupt at the receivers sell their properties, those will be able to be bought at a reduced rate and then renting to others will become economic again for the new purchasers.
I agree with what you are saying, but I don't think the story ends there.0
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