What to do about 14yr old being asked to leave school

BarryDoodles

Special or another Mountjoy inmate in the making, either way he is clearly disupting classes and taking time away from those who actually want to learn. Ergo he should be removed from a public classroom and his problems "treated"

Febe00

BarryDoodles wrote: »

Special or another Mountjoy inmate in the making, either way he is clearly disupting classes and taking time away from those who actually want to learn. Ergo he should be removed from a public classroom and his problems "treated"

Helpfull BarryDoodles

Nevyn

BarryDoodles wrote: »

Special or another Mountjoy inmate in the making, either way he is clearly disupting classes and taking time away from those who actually want to learn. Ergo he should be removed from a public classroom and his problems "treated"

And how should that happen?
Who should do it?

rainbowtrout

Febe00 wrote: »

Yes I work full time but I am out on sick leave at the moment (trying to deal with this and other unrelated family illness/ issues) I have 3 other children 2 of which have special needs. This does however sound like a good solution in some part. although i could not attend full days as my 2 year old only attends montissori for few hrs and 10yr old has extra classes etc

Well perhaps start by making an appointment with the principal and talking through a couple of options. They might have a few of their own. Showing that you are willing to support whatever measures they put in place is half the battle.

Even if you were to go down the road of staying in school with him, you might not have to be there for a full day. He's not going to want his mother following him around the school..

I'd also go with some of the other suggestions - no tv, computer, mobile etc whatsoever.

You could also come to some arrangement that if he is causing hassle in class, you will come and collect him and take him home straight away. Put him to work the minute he gets in the door, he'll have to do housework if he's not in school. No lazing about at home.

Nevyn

Febe00 have you talked to the prinicpal about getting a referal to the local child and family clinic?

Febe00

Thaedydal wrote: »

Febe00 have you talked to the prinicpal about getting a referal to the local child and family clinic?

Yes we have been reffered and also teenage councilling and strenghtning familys program

Febe00

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well perhaps start by making an appointment with the principal and talking through a couple of options. They might have a few of their own. Showing that you are willing to support whatever measures they put in place is half the battle.

Even if you were to go down the road of staying in school with him, you might not have to be there for a full day. He's not going to want his mother following him around the school..

I'd also go with some of the other suggestions - no tv, computer, mobile etc whatsoever.

You could also come to some arrangement that if he is causing hassle in class, you will come and collect him and take him home straight away. Put him to work the minute he gets in the door, he'll have to do housework if he's not in school. No lazing about at home.

Thanks, Yes we are on call from the school if he acts the maggot in class but he does not (there has been like 1 or 2 incidents of messing) but, i agree with taking stuff off him (we have takin his xbox permenitly and his granny took his phone 1 month ago)

Sardonicat

Maybe it's time to take the pc too? He won't be able to contact his pals at all then. It would be really tough for you, but it will hit him where it hurts. The counselling and strngthening families programme sounds like it could be promising for ye.

implausible

Febe00 wrote: »

Oh thank you, it is good to hear from a teacher. In your experience is this common? is it always down to parenting and discipline?

A lot of the time the parenting is the problem, but from what you've posted, you seem to be an exception - not the stereotypical lacksadaisical parent who blames it all on the school and constantly condones his/her child's behaviour. Perhaps it's something as simple as attention. You have your hands full with two special needs siblings and perhaps he is jealous of the attention they get, but as a teenage boy is unable to express this in any other way.

Is the school in full communication with you? Is there a daily report from every class being sent home with him? A combination of punishment and reward seems to be the only thing that usually works in these situations i.e. taking away all privileges - going out, mobile, xbox, tv, chocolate and gradually reintroducing them as a reward for doing work.

Is there anything in school that will motivate him to want to stay in it e.g. a school trip, a play, football team, club, even meeting friends at lunchtime? There has to be something that you and the school can use as a carrot, as the stick is not working in school.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well perhaps start by making an appointment with the principal and talking through a couple of options. They might have a few of their own. Showing that you are willing to support whatever measures they put in place is half the battle.

Even if you were to go down the road of staying in school with him, you might not have to be there for a full day. He's not going to want his mother following him around the school..

You have to work with the school (as you are doing) to get anywhere and prevent them going down the expulsion route. The parent in school thing was suggested in our school for one particular student but was an absolute no-no from staff - garda vetting was only one of the issues brought up. However, it's a good threat. Dropping him at the door every morning and picking him straight up is a good second option - mortification is a good weapon for teenage boys!

Febe00

deemark wrote: »

Is the school in full communication with you? Is there a daily report from every class being sent home with him?




Is there anything in school that will motivate him to want to stay in it e.g. a school trip, a play, football team, club, even meeting friends at lunchtime? There has to be something that you and the school can use as a carrot, as the stick is not working in school.





You have to work with the school (as you are doing) to get anywhere and prevent them going down the expulsion route. The parent in school thing was suggested in our school for one particular student but was an absolute no-no from staff - garda vetting was only one of the issues brought up. However, it's a good threat. Dropping him at the door every morning and picking him straight up is a good second option - mortification is a good weapon for teenage boys!

Yes he is on a daily report which each class teacher fills out and is signed by the year head, then we sign it. we speack to the school head at least once a week. Not at the moment he is not allowed out at lunch time. We are trying the "what do you really want for christmas" thing at the moment. We do already drop himto and collect him from school. thanks

Nevyn

Febe00 wrote: »

Thanks, Yes we are on call from the school if he acts the maggot in class but he does not (there has been like 1 or 2 incidents of messing) but, i agree with taking stuff off him (we have takin his xbox permenitly and his granny took his phone 1 month ago)

So the school's main issue is the lack of work being handed in, and the lack of completion of work and extra punishment work, which is being viewed now as a discipline issue and breaching the code of conduct and contract agreed between you, your son and the school.

Has he given a reason for the boycott on homework?

Febe00

Thaedydal wrote: »

So the school's main issue is the lack of work being handed in, and the lack of completion of work and extra punishment work, which is being viewed now as a discipline issue and breaching the code of conduct and contract agreed between you, your son and the school.

Has he given a reason for the boycott on homework?

Oh yes the schools main issue is no homework completed or half done in wrong copies etc, he has a lazy attitude as such and sometimes arrives to class with no book or supplies

He can not explain it he says and i quote " I just dont know why I CANT do it I just cant motivate myself, Im lazy when it comes to homework, I know it I dont need to do it"

Febe00

Sardonicat wrote: »

Maybe it's time to take the pc too? He won't be able to contact his pals at all then. It would be really tough for you, but it will hit him where it hurts. The counselling and strngthening families programme sounds like it could be promising for ye.

Yes I am thinking perhaps a complete ban on everything and brace ourselves for the reaction

Nevyn

Febe00 wrote: »

Oh yes the schools main issue is no homework completed or half done in wrong copies etc, he has a lazy attitude as such and sometimes arrives to class with no book or supplies

He can not explain it he says and i quote " I just dont know why I CANT do it I just cant motivate myself, Im lazy when it comes to homework, I know it I dont need to do it"

How does that reflect in his test scores?

We'd issues with the amount of home work with the switch to secondary school with my eldest who has ASD and thank the gods for minecraft,
he can't play until homework is done and it's not been an issue from that.

Febe00

Thaedydal wrote: »

How does that reflect in his test scores?

We'd issues with the amount of home work with the switch to secondary school with my eldest who has ASD and thank the gods for minecraft,
he can't play until homework is done and it's not been an issue from that.

So far he is doing ok even a few a's and b's but as the school head says he will do ok for now, maybe even pass the Junior Cert with what he picks up in class but not what he could do. He will have to drop down to ordinary level as higher level will be too hard to continue without doing homework and that will have a knock on affect into his leaing cert subject choices

randylonghorn

deemark wrote: »

Perhaps it's something as simple as attention. You have your hands full with two special needs siblings and perhaps he is jealous of the attention they get, but as a teenage boy is unable to express this in any other way.

That thought struck me also.

I would wonder if he is consciously or sub-consciously acting up to get the extra attention / perhaps mimicking some behaviours which he sees as getting extra attention.

It's unlikely to be the full story, but it could be part of it.

Febe00 wrote: »

My husband (not his Dad) helps a lot.

I also noted this. No matter how good your husband is with him, 13 / 14 is a typical time for serious questions to start in a kid's head about this, and to be very unsettling.

Thaedydal wrote: »

... extra punishment work ...

I have to admit, I've always been dubious about this practice. Ok, extra work is a punishment, but it also re-enforces the idea that homework itself is a punishment, which is how this lad for example seems to view it anyway.

Febe, I would agree with those who say that tough love is needed, but I would also favour the carrot-and-stick approach. And for a lad like yours, who seems to have a fairly short attention span anyway and live entirely in the "now", the carrot probably needs to be fairly immediate, rather than long-term.

How about a bargain (bribery, but wtf!) that if he completes his homework fully and reasonably, he gets to do something HE wants to do for an hour? (Probably need to negotiate the possible rewards in advance, or you might get some crazy demands! )


EDIT:

Thaedydal wrote: »

We'd issues with the amount of home work with the switch to secondary school with my eldest who has ASD and thank the gods for minecraft, he can't play until homework is done and it's not been an issue from that.

Aye, that's the kind of thing I mean.

Febe00

randylonghorn wrote: »

That thought struck me also.

I would wonder if he is consciously or sub-consciously acting up to get the extra attention / perhaps mimicking some behaviours which he sees as getting extra attention.

It's unlikely to be the full story, but it could be part of it.

I also noted this. No matter how good your husband is with him, 13 / 14 is a typical time for serious questions to start in a kid's head about this, and to be very unsettling.

I have to admit, I've always been dubious about this practice. Ok, extra work is a punishment, but it also re-enforces the idea that homework itself is a punishment, which is how this lad for example seems to view it anyway.

Febe, I would agree with those who say that tough love is needed, but I would also favour the carrot-and-stick approach. And for a lad like yours, who seems to have a fairly short attention span anyway and live entirely in the "now", the carrot probably needs to be fairly immediate, rather than long-term.

How about a bargain (bribery, but wtf!) that if he completes his homework fully and reasonably, he gets to do something HE wants to do for an hour? (Probably need to negotiate the possible rewards in advance, or you might get some crazy demands! )


EDIT:

Aye, that's the kind of thing I mean.

thanks some good advice. Yes I have thought of the attention thing, its very possible in our home that the child with the biggest issue of the moment gets the most attention, although we always try to have family chats etc, but 1:1s needed.

Regarding his dad I know this is an issue for him. Unfortunitly his fathr is not a good influence on him and is not a big help or part of his life

maiden

Hiya, I havent read all of the replies, I am in the same position regarding my 15 year old son.

The first thing you do today is ring the education welfare officer for your area, they are fantastic! They will help and advise you.

My son was told he was not welcome back at school and the officer told me to send him back in as they have an obligation to teach him. My son does not want to be in school, wont do any homework and is always on detention.
They refuse to teach him PE and English.

I have a meeting with the school and the EWO next week.

Inzilbeth

I am so sorry to hear that both of your are going through this xx I have a teen who is now 15 and the whilst the attitude your son has that he does not have to do homework is not the exact same as my sons.. the resulting behaviour is.. and even some of the consequences.
My son is one who will sit ( from primary school age) from the time he gets home.. over his work.. but if it is not supervised.. it is not done properly and to his best ability.
So basically he is just wasting his time.
His concentration is all over the place.
and yes.. we have been called into school for non completion of homewrok, books not brought in, wrong books brought in, materials not taken out before the teacher comes in etc etc.. which at one point lead to a particular teacher reprimanding him.. as should be done.. and he exploded.. and got suspended for two days.
we went to the school, talked to the principal and the teacher involved.. and by the way this was last year when he was 14.
I asked that the school send him for his councelling programme.. which to be honest has not been very good.. as how can they help him if he does not open up but I also told them I was concerned he may have ADD.. as he has all the sympthoms.. including a total hypersentitivity to certain foods such as fat on meat etc.
It is not an excuse for him.. he was severly punished for his outburst.. but on the other hand.. my sons is a case of doing the study.. albeit taking yonks and a general apathy about it.
However the reason I was saying this to you is that over the last year..my son has had a total turnaround.. well a definite improvement.. and even when there was problems this year again.. with the same teacher.. he was supported by the other teachers saying that 'no there was a marked improvement in all other classes'
Often if the child feels backed into a corner it is worse..
one thing he must know is that whatever happens you are on his side, albeit to punish if it is a simple matter of bad behaviour but if it is a case of learned behaviour or something he cannot actually control.... he has to know that he has your support fully.
reading theh answers that he is giving you.. such as knowing where he wants to study.. and showing an interest in what is happening suggests to me that he will be ok
What you need now is to convince the school to give you time till you decide what you want to do.. be it even to actually find him a school perhaps better suited to him.
I would ask the principal to let him stay until at least his councelling is completed. Personally if he/she does not.. they are not the right school for him in the first place and would not have your sons best interests at heart.
O and the beloved X Box.. I have that too.. its banned during the week.. and only allowed at the weekend for 8 hours in total.. tis hard to stick to but it works.
sometimes if he gets his work done on time.. he will get it for an hour as a treat.
and the fact that your son has given up his activites.. please try and get him back into the football or another sport entirely different that he likes.. mine has gotten into rugby and is a different kid there too.
And unfortunately ... although mine is working more now.. I do still supervise in that I will make sure his diary is complete each day when he gets home, so I know what he has to do.. and if its not.. tis a half hour off his x box
and I check each subject as he completes it.. and correct him.. for STILL not doing capitals, heading etc etc.. it never ends

maiden

The school cannot expel for these reasons alone, the Board of Management expels and they only meet around twice a year etc.

As far as i know you have to be 16 to start Youthreach.

Its a totally stressful situation, an argument every morning to get him to school and then a phonecall from the school to collect him but PLEASE ring the educational officer, they are on your side!!

Jumpy

Hmm, sounds a little like me when I was young.

OP get your son tested in regards to being gifted.
Treating him like a rebel all the time is completely the wrong way to go about this.

If he is of very high intelligence, then normal education is not the right way.

In regards to homework etc, I was the same, I never did it because in my head I knew it was pointless. Same with the rest of school.

My life picked up VERY fast when I left school at 16 straight into IT. The challenges were stronger and more rewarding, I was actually using my brain rather than just going through the motions.

If he keeps on this path then its going to head towards depression. Get him challenges asap, and when I say challenges, they have to be interesting and rewarding.

mariaalice

The school sounds very harsh to be honest....have you asked your son what he want to do with himself if the school wont take him back? at 14 he is old enough to take some responsibly for him self.

My youngest daughter although very bright did not like school she never did. Secondary school was very difficult and i was up and down to the school a lot trying to sort problems out, however in sixth and and part of fifth year there was a huge turn around and she is studying like mad. I have asked her why things have changed and all she can say is i have grown up a bit and coped on to my self i want to go to college with everyone else. The funny thing is it sorta happened over night.

Why i think it happened in the first place is as simple as she didn't like school from day one, she liked going to school to meet her friends and thats all.
Her interested are animals and being outdoors she likes camping and the scouts muck and dirt doesn't bother her at all. I think school doesn't work for some children but i don't know what the alternative is.

coffee_cake

Febe00 wrote: »

So far he is doing ok even a few a's and b's but as the school head says he will do ok for now, maybe even pass the Junior Cert with what he picks up in class but not what he could do. He will have to drop down to ordinary level as higher level will be too hard to continue without doing homework and that will have a knock on affect into his leaing cert subject choices

Jumpy wrote: »

Hmm, sounds a little like me when I was young.

OP get your son tested in regards to being gifted.
Treating him like a rebel all the time is completely the wrong way to go about this.

If he is of very high intelligence, then normal education is not the right way.

In regards to homework etc, I was the same, I never did it because in my head I knew it was pointless. Same with the rest of school.

My life picked up VERY fast when I left school at 16 straight into IT. The challenges were stronger and more rewarding, I was actually using my brain rather than just going through the motions.

If he keeps on this path then its going to head towards depression. Get him challenges asap, and when I say challenges, they have to be interesting and rewarding.

OP, I was a little dubious until now but your post above that I have quoted is sending signs to me that your son NEEDS to be tested for intelligence.
Lazy homework is one thing, but if he is getting As without trying or doing homework, that is another thing. It is entirely possible that he may be able to swing through the JC with no effort whatsoever and doing no homework. It's doable, but rare.
If that's the case, forcing him through it like a normal student will lead to even more trouble and as Jumpy has said, it will lead to depression. Any highly gifted child not being stimulated can start to suffer that way. Hell, I was nearly asked to leave my own school myself. I didn't do homework - just sketchily did stuff at lunchtime "I left my homework in my locker", memorised stuff in the 5 mins before class so I could parrot it back and then forget about it again. I was 13 back then and I didn't understand myself why I wasn't interested in anything anymore, not even my extra curricular stuff. I didn't realise sheer boredom day in day out could have such a massive effect.
You said he used to like his sport but he has lost motivation so that CAN be a warning sign. Obviously I am not a doctor and I don't know him so I am NOT making a diagnosis, but I am saying this as a reason to get the testing done.

I can't suggest, assuming that he tests a very high IQ, that he skips a year because he is already in JC, but it may be an option to give him something from LC level to stimulate him AND to show him where he needs foundational learning.
I know personally I did not do anything in JC and because I'm lucky enough that way, I breezed through with Bs, but really I didn't see the point in the work even in maths which I love. I think it is an idea if you show him Leaving Cert stuff on the side in the evenings, it may boost him enough to get him interested in learning again and to see the value of the material he is doing in JC. It will also give him the stimulation he needs.

If he is interested in teaching then maybe set something up for him with one of the teachers to discuss what needs to be done if he wants to get into UL and emphasise that while he might find things easy and boring now, it won't remain that way.
Good luck

paperclip2

If he has a high level of ability which the school seem to think he has, then many of his problems could stem from boredom. If you had an educational assessment done it would show this. Sometimes the school can pay for this but usually parents would have to cover the cost and it can be expensive.

Another option would be to see if he could do the Centre for Talented Youth in Ireland talent search. http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi/talent.shtml This is an aptitude test that would indicate degrees of high ability in Maths, Language skills and Logical Reasoning. The closing date for 2011 was Nov 5th but if you were interested and if you contact the Centre they might accept a late application. My eldest has gone there for the past three years and it was a godsend.

Hope it works out for you OP.

Truley

University education in this country is seriously overrated. I went straight from college to the dole queue, and am now earning barely over min wage as a childminder. Looking back I wish people hadn't made such a fuss over exams, they are not a measure of intellegence or success. They do not automatically guarantee a prosperous life. Looking back I feel like I wasted alot of my life ticking the boxes in school, and it's only in recent years that
I discovered real, passionate learning.

My boyfriend was an extremely gifted and intellegent child. He left school at fourteen just before the JC, worked for a year on farms and building sites and then went on to do a FETAC. By the time he was eighteen he had experience in the working world, of budgeting, financial independence and self directed learning. And had a Fetac level 5 in something he enjoyed doing and that served him well in years to come. Keeping in mind a FETAC is equivelent to 400 leaving cert points so you're not closing any doors in terms of University, if he even wants to do it at all.

Being successful in school isn't the be all and end all of a person's life. There are alternatives. I feel sorry for your son having to spend the next three/four years of his life doing something he clearly hates. I think you need to give him more control in the direction his life takes, because clearly he has made up his mind he doesn't want to do the school thing. The next few years will only be a battle, with no guarantee that things will be any different at the end. In years time he may regret it, but he will learn early on the consequences of his decisions. Remember there is always a chance of going back and doing his LC when he's old enough to appreciate it. My dad did it at 50.

Miaireland

Sorry, I have just scanned through some of the post so this may have already been suggested.

There are people who work with schools, they used to be called School Attendence Officer but are now known by a different title (school welfare officers I think).

They deal with cases like your son's. Helping you to make arrangement with the school for him to stay there or else finding him a new school.

Their website is www.newb.ie.

Good luck.

decisions

rather than punishing him for not doing his homework why not reward him for doing some of it like if you do your X homework you can have to minuets more on the computer

lynski

I have been reading this thread with fascination, I hope the op gets some solution, as it must be hell.
The only thing that is puzzling me is why the school is making such a huge deal out of homework. It is a long time since I went to school (left in 1989) and perhaps our school was different, but when I did the attitude was that if you did not do your homework, your loss. The school had a 'few rules, lot of respect ethos' so the teachers respected the students and more or less vice versa. The only rules i can recall were wear your uniform, turn up on time, no smoking up to IC and 5th 6th yrs not in classrooms (it was the 80s), respect each other.
If you did not do your work you were marked accordingly, but not punished, you were expected to understand that you and only you lose out. Like being in college really. Your were not abandoned, help was available, but not punishment. The head would have a chat with you, but there was a serious expectation that you had to take on board the responsibility. Individual teachers might lose the rag, but cumulative punishment was not on the cards. There was no detention, on report or any of that stuff. people got sent home for a few days if they did something really bad.
So I have having a problem understanding why the school do not back off, after telling him and you clearly that he is going to do badly if he does not work or study, but that is his choice.
I guess I better spend sometime preparing myself for my children's experience of school.

dan_d

"I know it, I don't need to do it."

There's your problem, right there. I've said before here, I'm not a parent. But your son sounds like he's very smart. So a suggestion - have you looked into the gifted child programmes? I know DCU run them in the summer, but I'm not sure what the age groups are. If he's smart, what appeals to him - electronics, maths, stuff like that? Can you get him into extracurricular activities - maybe engineers ireland or something have programmes, try their website (www.engineersireland.ie). I'm not sure what they have, but take a look.

If it's not maths stuff he's interested in, can you find programmes that might take him on in internships/courses related to what he is interested in.

You need to impress very hard into your son's mind that being intelligent is fine, but that you still need the qualifications to back up your intelligence. All the high IQ's (and I know he hasn't been tested, but theoretically) in the world don't matter if you dropped out of school at the age of 14, or didn't get your JC. Intelligence is not the same as having the common sense to realise that you need to have certain things to get you through life, particularly the way things are now. (I'm not arguing here about how people did fine without an education, for the purpose of this child).

I've noticed on my way through school and college (with a male relation the same age as me) that boys can often have the attitude of "I know I got a D in the exam, but I'm smart if I put my mind to it, ". Doesn't matter if you don't have the results to back it up. Your son needs to understand this, and that furthermore, if he doesn't have the results, he won't have the opportunity to work in any of the areas he'd like to (refer back to the above about maybe trying to get him into a course somewhere)

Normally, I'd say he sounds spoiled and like you're not putting the foot down, but to be honest you sound like you're doing everything you can. Well done to you for that. Also as another person suggested it may be influenced by the fact that he has siblings with other problems, and feels left out. Maybe offer him as many opportunities as possible to get stuck into real world projects, things that challenge him, with the idea of reinforcing the message that in order to be able to have some sort of future with this stuff, he has to have an education and homework is part of that. At the end of the day, it's his life. He will eventually have to sit exams, one way or the other and it's him and the CAO system and nobody else. Ditto for university.

Best of luck.

dan_d

lynski wrote: »

I have been reading this thread with fascination, I hope the op gets some solution, as it must be hell.
The only thing that is puzzling me is why the school is making such a huge deal out of homework. It is a long time since I went to school (left in 1989) and perhaps our school was different, but when I did the attitude was that if you did not do your homework, your loss. The school had a 'few rules, lot of respect ethos' so the teachers respected the students and more or less vice versa. The only rules i can recall were wear your uniform, turn up on time, no smoking up to IC and 5th 6th yrs not in classrooms (it was the 80s), respect each other.
If you did not do your work you were marked accordingly, but not punished, you were expected to understand that you and only you lose out. Like being in college really. Your were not abandoned, help was available, but not punishment. The head would have a chat with you, but there was a serious expectation that you had to take on board the responsibility. Individual teachers might lose the rag, but cumulative punishment was not on the cards. There was no detention, on report or any of that stuff. people got sent home for a few days if they did something really bad.
So I have having a problem understanding why the school do not back off, after telling him and you clearly that he is going to do badly if he does not work or study, but that is his choice.
I guess I better spend sometime preparing myself for my children's experience of school.

Sorry for the double post - but because nowadays the school has to be able to prove they did all in their power to help a child, so if they end up in front of a court they have a paper trail.Due to the fact that there are people out there who sue schools because they feel they were let down by the system, although in some cases it was more they couldn't have bothered trying while they were in there.

Also due to the fact that Irish society now operates on the basis where everybody knows their rights, but many people are not prepared to accept responsibility for themselves or their actions.