Vegetarians, Vegans...

Merzbow

These arguments are so pointless it's funny.

I've been vegan for 3 years now and don't need to justify my choice to anyone,

Likewise I don't expect meat-eaters to justify their choices to me.

If you don't want to eat animals - don't. If you do want to eat animals - do. Meat-eaters won't convince vegetarians to start consuming meat again, and vegetarians won't convince meat-eaters to stop consuming meat. None of my vegetarian/vegan friends were pressured into it, they all decided based on their own research/experiences.

Live and let live!

eddie the eagle

Merzbow wrote: »

These arguments are so pointless it's funny.

I've been vegan for 3 years now and don't need to justify my choice to anyone,

Likewise I don't expect meat-eaters to justify their choices to me.

If you don't want to eat animals - don't. If you do want to eat animals - do. Meat-eaters won't convince vegetarians to start consuming meat again, and vegetarians won't convince meat-eaters to stop consuming meat. None of my vegetarian/vegan friends were pressured into it, they all decided based on their own research/experiences.

Live and let live!

so like i was saying, it was a year or two before i stopped craving for meat. how long was it for you before you stopped craving for dairy products? or do you still?

Cavehill Red

seamus wrote: »

In my experience, you never come across a preachy vegetarian. I have never once encountered a vegetarian who has criticised or attacked someone else for eating meat (unless prompted). The stereotype of the crusty, crazy, preachy, feminist vegetarian screaming at anyone who eats meat, simply doesn't exist.

Preachy meat-eaters, now they're everywhere.

I once lived with a Hare Krishna. Lovely fellow, and hardly the only one with unconventional beliefs in the house either.
But he was the only one who called the fridge 'the morgue', insisted on buying a second fridge so that his food wouldn't be 'spiritually contaminated by the dead' (as if his dried chickpeas were alive!) and lecture the rest of us when we were having dinner.
In the end, I used to bring batterburgers into the gaff and sit in front of him for badness. Still mates now, though. And he's still got his beliefs, fair play. And I still have the odd batterburger.

fonecrusher1

eddie the eagle wrote: »

in regards to eating cheese coming from cows, i could have a cow in my garden and get the milk and cheese from her and give her a pat on the back and an apple afterwards. im not running my body on the meat from her, which from what i know sounds like a pretty bad last few hours of life.
i can live without ingesting that suffering fine.

Yeah you could but you don't. Its possible the cheese you have eaten has come from an animal that has endured horrific cruelty. Where does that leave your intentions?

Now i have seen vidoes on youtube with disgusting acts of animal cruelty & it angers me but i can't help being a vigorous carnivore. I can't help it. Im not going to fool myself into thinking im doing the right thing. Its all or nothing, theres no in between. You either completely eliminate animal sourced products from your life or you just eat burgers. Vegetarianism falls into the latter as far as im concerned.

True vegans in all fairness can say i have nothing to do with animal produce, im free of guilt. As a vegetarian, can you?

Tigger

seamus wrote: »

The food chain is a nonsense concept. Logically by not feeding yourself to a higher predator, like a tiger, you too are rejecting your place in the food chain.

so true

Cavehill Red

noxqs wrote: »

Even hunter / gathering societies didnt get much meat. It takes alot of effort to catch prey reliably.

Not true. It's thought that meat made up at least 90% of the Neanderthal diet.

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Yeah you could but you don't. Its possible the cheese you have eaten has come from an animal that has endured horrific cruelty. Where does that leave your intentions?

Now i have seen vidoes on youtube with disgusting acts of animal cruelty & it angers me but i can't help being a vigorous carnivore. I can't help it. Im not going to fool myself into thinking im doing the right thing. Its all or nothing, theres no in between. You either completely eliminate animal sourced products from your life or you just eat burgers. Vegetarianism falls into the latter as far as im concerned.

True vegans in all fairness can say i have nothing to do with animal produce, im free of guilt. As a vegetarian, can you?

its possible, but to my knowledge it hasn't. i buy organic cheese, and as far as i know the cow hasn't entered into a world of suffering to be milked.

fonecrusher1

Tigger wrote: »

so true

Not really, its a meaningless statement. People in certain countries do get eaten by tigers due to proximity with said animals. Its terrible but yes it does happen & it does fall in line with the food chain. Obviously in this country such an event is highly highly unlikely due to the lack of tigers.


*Joke linking the word tiger in this post with the demise of the economic celtic tiger. /sigh...

one-angry-dwarf

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Yeah you could but you don't. Its possible the cheese you have eaten has come from an animal that has endured horrific cruelty. Where does that leave your intentions?

Now i have seen vidoes on youtube with disgusting acts of animal cruelty & it angers me but i can't help being a vigorous carnivore. I can't help it. Im not going to fool myself into thinking im doing the right thing. Its all or nothing, theres no in between. You either completely eliminate animal sourced products from your life or you just eat burgers. Vegetarianism falls into the latter as far as im concerned.

True vegans in all fairness can say i have nothing to do with animal produce, im free of guilt. As a vegetarian, can you?

It's not about being totally free of guilt. Living a lifestyle that totally eliminates any indirect animal cruelty is virtually impossible. This doesn't mean that trying to reduce your contribution to this suffering is pointless. It most definitely isn't "all or nothing".

vaalea

eddie the eagle wrote: »

well yeah for myself i couldn't imagine myself as vegan, take for instance today, i hadn't eaten any cheese for a few days and today i knew my body was looking for some. now if that would go away the same my meat cravings did after a couple of years, i don't know. i doubt it though. judging the way i feel when i haven't had any (it feels different from my old meat cravings). i guess it might be down to the whole b12 thing.

Orrr.. you are literally addicted.:D

Why is cheese so addicting? Certainly not because of its aroma, which is perilously close to old socks. The first hint of a biochemical explanation came in 1981, when scientists at Wellcome Research Laboratories in Research Triangle Park, N.C., found a substance in dairy products that looked remarkably like morphine. After a complex series of tests, they determined that, surprisingly enough, it actually was morphine. By a fluke of nature, the enzymes that produce opiates are not confined to poppies -- they also hide inside cows' livers. So traces of morphine can pass into the animal's bloodstream and end up in milk and milk products. The amounts are far too small to explain cheese's appeal. But nonetheless, the discovery led scientists on their search for opiate compounds in dairy products.
And they found them. Opiates hide inside casein, the main dairy protein.
http://www.healthdiaries.com/blogs/vegetarianblues/archives/2004/09/casein_and_cheese_more_addictive_than_chocolate.html

Merzbow

eddie the eagle wrote: »

so like i was saying, it was a year or two before i stopped craving for meat. how long was it for you before you stopped craving for dairy products? or do you still?

Ok, well I never actually understood cravings for meat/eggs/dairy because when I found out what was happening to the animals in those industries it instantly turned my stomach (not at the same time though, I was vegetarian for a while first). Dairy isn't natural anyway imo, we are the only species to actively consume breast milk from other animals. You don't see tigers going around sucking the tits of cows, or vice versa with any combination of species except humans.

I suppose just fill your diet with fresh, nutritious foods and it will satisfy any cravings. Cook a delicious vegetable curry with basmati rice, chickpea burgers with homemade fries, tofu stir fry with noodles, pasta with fresh tomato sauce, etc. the only dairy I used to consume was milk and butter, just replaced the milk with soya milk and butter with sunflower spread - not a huge difference in taste to be honest!

Pm me if you want any recipes!

vaalea

regarding milk and eggs.... even free-range organic.. it isn't about the suffering of the cow or chicken that is the worst, it is that for each cow or chicken there was also a male calf/chick that was cruelly slaughtered as they are "useless". chicks are documented thrown into grinders alive. You buy milk/eggs, that is what you are supporting.

strobe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

eddie the eagle

vaalea wrote: »

Orrr.. you are literally addicted.:D

Why is cheese so addicting? Certainly not because of its aroma, which is perilously close to old socks. The first hint of a biochemical explanation came in 1981, when scientists at Wellcome Research Laboratories in Research Triangle Park, N.C., found a substance in dairy products that looked remarkably like morphine. After a complex series of tests, they determined that, surprisingly enough, it actually was morphine. By a fluke of nature, the enzymes that produce opiates are not confined to poppies -- they also hide inside cows' livers. So traces of morphine can pass into the animal's bloodstream and end up in milk and milk products. The amounts are far too small to explain cheese's appeal. But nonetheless, the discovery led scientists on their search for opiate compounds in dairy products.
And they found them. Opiates hide inside casein, the main dairy protein.
http://www.healthdiaries.com/blogs/vegetarianblues/archives/2004/09/casein_and_cheese_more_addictive_than_chocolate.html

i wouldn't be suprised if that was the cause of my craving then. i read too somewhere that potatoes had similarities with valium. two of my main staples. mmmm mixing meds and whats with the whole vivid dreams with cheese. something i have noticed myself

fonecrusher1

one-angry-dwarf wrote: »

It's not about being totally free of guilt. Living a lifestyle that totally eliminates any indirect animal cruelty is virtually impossible. This doesn't mean that trying to reduce your contribution to this suffering is pointless. It most definitely isn't "all or nothing".

Im afraid it is all or nothing & im sure what im talking about is very much something you vegetarians think about when your having a meat craving.

You either make a full effort & enjoy the full absolution or you don't. You can congratulate each other all you want, i have all the respect in the world for true vegans. Vegetarians? nah your sort of taking the easier choice. Oh i don't eat meat. Except fish. And eggs. And butter. And currries that use heaps of animal fats. And i still wear animal hide clothing. And cheese. And milk.
Stop fooling yourselves. Actually i think i could be a vegetarian as long as i can enjoy all the other less obvious animal sourced products.

Merzbow

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Not true. It's thought that meat made up at least 90% of the Neanderthal diet.

"Thought" by you yeah? Anyway does it really matter what an extinct species diet was 100,000 years ago? It's hardly relevant to modern day humans.

eddie the eagle

Merzbow wrote: »

Ok, well I never actually understood cravings for meat/eggs/dairy because when I found out what was happening to the animals in those industries it instantly turned my stomach (not at the same time though, I was vegetarian for a while first). Dairy isn't natural anyway imo, we are the only species to actively consume breast milk from other animals. You don't see tigers going around sucking the tits of cows, or vice versa with any combination of species except humans.

I suppose just fill your diet with fresh, nutritious foods and it will satisfy any cravings. Cook a delicious vegetable curry with basmati rice, chickpea burgers with homemade fries, tofu stir fry with noodles, pasta with fresh tomato sauce, etc. the only dairy I used to consume was milk and butter, just replaced the milk with soya milk and butter with sunflower spread - not a huge difference in taste to be honest!

Pm me if you want any recipes!

yeah but thats like saying when you realised what smokes were doing to your lungs you quit and never wanted one again. i know its more extreme. but its not just your mind. if your body is running on a certain thing for so long it will become used to processing that and when you stop it will be looking for it.

dunno about the whole stealing milk from the tits of other animals. seems strange when you put it like that. more of a thief in the night thing rather than doctor doom :pac:

Merzbow

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Im afraid it is all or nothing & im sure what im talking about is very much something you vegetarians think about when your having a meat craving.

Why does it have to be "all or nothing" though? That doesn't make sense.

Sure while you're contributing to animal cruelty by consuming meat, why not go out and stab a few dogs and horses for a laugh too. By your logic there is no grey area between zero influence on animal cruelty, and maximum possible influence on animal cruelty.

Merzbow

eddie the eagle wrote: »

yeah but thats like saying when you realised what smokes were doing to your lungs you quit and never wanted one again. i know its more extreme. but its not just your mind. if your body is running on a certain thing for so long it will become used to processing that and when you stop it will be looking for it.

Ah, I understand the smoking analogy (well it's mostly a psychological addiction than a physical addiction to nicotine). I don't smoke but with cigarettes the psychological aspect would be a lot harder to overcome as it's only hurting yourself , whereas the way I saw it with dairy/eggs/etc I was hurting animals too ya kno.

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Im afraid it is all or nothing & im sure what im talking about is very much something you vegetarians think about when your having a meat craving.

You either make a full effort & enjoy the full absolution or you don't. You can congratulate each other all you want, i have all the respect in the world for true vegans. Vegetarians? nah your sort of taking the easier choice. Oh i don't eat meat. Except fish. And eggs. And butter. And currries that use heaps of animal fats. And i still wear animal hide clothing. And cheese. And milk.
Stop fooling yourselves. Actually i think i could be a vegetarian as long as i can enjoy all the other less obvious animal sourced products.

nah i disagree with that. its the situation i have found myself on this planet. if i had of found myself in a life where my only option to live was to rob from others, i would feel a lot better going home at night if i was only having to steal from folk without having to kill them too

one-angry-dwarf

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Veganism is a fashion statement. Essentially its a load of bollox that enables 'vegans' to bleat on & on about how badly farm animals are treated when all the time their craving a big oul burger. Lifes too short. Just eat your dinner.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I have all the respect in the world for true vegans.

Troll much?

eddie the eagle

Merzbow wrote: »

Ah, I understand the smoking analogy (well it's mostly a psychological addiction than a physical addiction to nicotine). I don't smoke but with cigarettes the psychological aspect would be a lot harder to overcome as it's only hurting yourself , whereas the way I saw it with dairy/eggs/etc I was hurting animals too ya kno.

this is true. i smoke, i've given up for a couple of years and started again. i guess the cravings i had for meat were more to do with the taste end than the craving i have for cheese. it was mostly rashers and big macs i missed for a while which are high in tatse, but with the chese it was more of something i could fell in my body. much like if you stopped eating sugar for a week how you would feel.

fonecrusher1

Merzbow wrote: »

Why does it have to be "all or nothing" though? That doesn't make sense.

Sure while you're contributing to animal cruelty by consuming meat, why not go out and stab a few dogs and horses for a laugh too. By your logic there is no grey area between zero influence on animal cruelty, and maximum possible influence on animal cruelty.

Ah now your trying to imply that i condone animal cruelty with that post to win the argument, a cheap shot. No doubt you'll get a few thanks. But back to the none-spectator awareness side of things, what im saying is vegetarians who claim they are vegetarians because they want to save the animals are basically talking out their hole.
If you want to help animals volunteer at your local animal sanctuary but don't go on like your Dian Fossey because you don't eat red meat. (because fish aren't animals:rolleyes:). I think of it like smoking. Your either a smoker or your a non smoker. Your either a meat eater/ animal product consumer or your a vegan. Go all the way or don't.

fonecrusher1

one-angry-dwarf wrote: »

Troll much?

No i don't.

Why? Did i upset you? Troubled?

Celtise

The smell of all red meat just makes me physically sick. As does the smell of eggs. Always has since I was a kid so I'm a half assed vegetarian but not out of choice as I love the taste!

one-angry-dwarf

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

No i don't.

Why? Did i upset you? Troubled?

Why did I point out inconsistencies in what you're saying?
Because I enjoyed it.

Merzbow

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Ah now your trying to imply that i condone animal cruelty with that post to win the argument, a cheap shot. No doubt you'll get a few thanks. But back to the none-spectator awareness side of things, what im saying is vegetarians who claim they are vegetarians because they want to save the animals are basically talking out their hole.
If you want to help animals volunteer at your local animal sanctuary but don't go on like your Dian Fossey because you don't eat red meat. (because fish aren't animals:rolleyes:). I think of it like smoking. Your either a smoker or your a non smoker. Your either a meat eater/ animal product consumer or your a vegan. Go all the way or don't.

Look, "vegans" even by existing are damaging other living organisms, no matter how much they try to prevent from doing so. There is no "all" in your "all or nothing" analogy when it comes to veganism/vegetarianism.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument or take a condescending tone or anything but honestly want you to see this, obviously as a vegan I'm more conscious of animal welfare, and I'm telling you now the whole thing is a VERY grey area so applying a "black or white" analogy to it is a waste of time.

Vegans are aware they are still hurting animals just by existing and doing day to day tasks (whether it's driving a car = pollution = environment getting destroyed, or consuming vegetables from land that was once home to wild animals, or accidentally stepping on a spider on the footpath, even buying vegetables in a supermarket that also sells meat is increasing their profits and encouraging them to stay open) BUT, we try to minimise our impact on the suffering of animals as much as humanly possible. This does make a difference, believe me. Even if someone replaces meat with a vegetarian dish once a week, they are decreasing animal slaughter and cruelty on a very small scale. And I respect someone if they do that, even if they still consume meat on the other 6 days. Likewise the people who give up eating chickens/pigs/cows but still consume dairy are also decreasing animal cruelty on some level.

fonecrusher1

one-angry-dwarf wrote: »

Why did I point out inconsistencies in what you're saying?
Because I enjoyed it.

Yup. I touched a nerve.^

Eat a burger or become a vegan.:pac:

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Yup. I touched a nerve.^

Eat a burger or become a vegan.:pac:

you did contradict yourself tho

amish vegans FTW:pac:

PanchoVilla

Merzbow wrote: »

Why does it have to be "all or nothing" though? That doesn't make sense.

Sure while you're contributing to animal cruelty by consuming meat, why not go out and stab a few dogs and horses for a laugh too. By your logic there is no grey area between zero influence on animal cruelty, and maximum possible influence on animal cruelty.

Do you use paper? Because millions of acres of rain forest are being cut down for the paper/lumber industry and thousands of species of animals are becoming extinct. Do you have a cell phone or computer? Because the gorillas and other animals in the Congo are being slaughtered for their meat by people who are forced to work in the coltan mines.

See, the whole ethics argument for not eating meat is ridiculous when wild animals that are not even bred for food are being slaughtered to support other industries. You won't eat meat because you care about animal welfare but you'll buy an iphone or a laptop without even thinking about the animals that suffer to bring you those technologies. Slightly hypocritical, wouldn't you say?