Vegetarians, Vegans...

hullaballoo

BickNarry wrote: »

This is an absolutely absurd thread.

Byproduct of eating meat?Dead animals.
Byproduct of being a vegetarian?Less dead animals.

So,even if we're wrong,and God intended us to eat meat,the food chain etc., well our impact has not been more harmful than otherwise.

Being wholly animal independent is very difficult. We are conditioned to eat meat, and big business is not animal friendly. To escape it in every way is near impossible,but worthwhile.

But to conclude that someone's efforts are void because they do not fully fulfill the premise is ridiculous.Like saying a fireman's efforts to save a family are not admirable because he didn't save them all.

At the end of the day,to put it crudely, the animals we eat end up as excrement.

And to me,that's a horrible waste of life. I don't find that a hard concept to grasp.

Why was this post thanked?

It reads like someone just mashed their keyboard a few times.

eddie the eagle

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Do you use paper? Because millions of acres of rain forest are being cut down for the paper/lumber industry and thousands of species of animals are becoming extinct. Do you have a cell phone or computer? Because the gorillas and other animals in the Congo are being slaughtered for their meat by people who are forced to work in the coltan mines.

See, the whole ethics argument for not eating meat is ridiculous when wild animals that are not even bred for food are being slaughtered to support other industries. You won't eat meat because you care about animal welfare but you'll buy an iphone or a laptop without even thinking about the animals that suffer to bring you those technologies. Slightly hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

so what???..........let's fcukin wreck the place?

PanchoVilla

eddie the eagle wrote: »

so what???..........let's ****in wreck the place?

Not at all. I'm simply saying you can't preach about animal cruelty when you support other industries that have an even bigger impact on the world's wild animal population.

Merzbow

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Do you use paper? Because millions of acres of rain forest are being cut down for the paper/lumber industry and thousands of species of animals are becoming extinct. Do you have a cell phone or computer? Because the gorillas and other animals in the Congo are being slaughtered for their meat by people who are forced to work in the coltan mines.

See, the whole ethics argument for not eating meat is ridiculous when wild animals that are not even bred for food are being slaughtered to support other industries. You won't eat meat because you care about animal welfare but you'll buy an iphone or a laptop without even thinking about the animals that suffer to bring you those technologies. Slightly hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, firstly I'd love to see a source or article suggesting that the level of animal slaughter/cruelty in the technology industry is even remotely on the same scale as the meat industry.

Secondly, even if it is (which I highly doubt btw), being vegan I'm still reducing the level of animal cruelty which I am responsible for. I could use an ipod and eat meat, or just use an ipod. Which situation do more animals die in?

fonecrusher1

Merzbow wrote: »

Look, "vegans" even by existing are damaging other living organisms, no matter how much they try to prevent from doing so. There is no "all" in your "all or nothing" analogy when it comes to veganism/vegetarianism.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument or take a condescending tone or anything but honestly want you to see this, obviously as a vegan I'm more conscious of animal welfare, and I'm telling you now the whole thing is a VERY grey area so applying a "black or white" analogy to it is a waste of time.

Vegans are aware they are still hurting animals just by existing and doing day to day tasks (whether it's driving a car = pollution = environment getting destroyed, or consuming vegetables from land that was once home to wild animals, or accidentally stepping on a spider on the footpath, even buying vegetables in a supermarket that also sells meat is increasing their profits and encouraging them to stay open) BUT, we try to minimise our impact on the suffering of animals as much as humanly possible. This does make a difference, believe me. Even if someone replaces meat with a vegetarian dish once a week, they are decreasing animal slaughter and cruelty on a very small scale. And I respect someone if they do that, even if they still consume meat on the other 6 days. Likewise the people who give up eating chickens/pigs/cows but still consume dairy are also decreasing animal cruelty on some level.

Look i appreciate what your saying but i suppose im aiming my argument at annoying save the world vegetarians who go on like their animal rights activists when really they simply don't like the taste of red meat but embellish their preference with notions of grandeur.

Really what a person wants to eat is their own business but when their intentions spill into a i want to save the animals type crusade i start picking apart their story. I ask questions, looking for genuinity where i suspect a poser looking for unquestioning approval.

I just think being a true vegan takes a lot more effort than being a vegetarian.

Irish Guitarist

hullaballoo wrote: »

Why was this post thanked?

It reads like someone just mashed their keyboard a few times.

To be fair his mashing skills are pretty good. It looks like he typed some coherent sentences to me.

eddie the eagle

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Not at all. I'm simply saying you can't preach about animal cruelty when you support other industries that have an even bigger impact on the world's wild animal population.

fair enough

PanchoVilla

Merzbow wrote: »

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, firstly I'd love to see a source or article suggesting that the level of animal slaughter/cruelty in the technology industry is even remotely on the same scale as the meat industry.

Secondly, even if it is (which I highly doubt btw), being vegan I'm still reducing the level of animal cruelty which I am responsible for. I could use an ipod and eat meat, or just use an ipod. Which situation do more animals die in?

As far as I'm concerned, 5,000 domestic cattle are not worth near as much as one gorilla. As you claim to be a vegan, I'm quite surprised you don't know about the bush meat situation in Africa and other places. I'm even more surprised that you seriously doubt such a thing is happening. Ok, here's one source:

Perhaps the worst misfortune to befall the world's gorillas is that they live in some of the most resource-rich and lawless parts of the planet. Their forest homes in Africa are rich in timber, gold, diamonds and coltan, the mineral used in electronics like cell phones, and the scramble to get at those minerals has been joined by ragtag militias, national armies, multinationals and governments alike.

That means it is an unusually bad time to be a gorilla. A new U.N. report warns that most of the remaining gorillas in Africa could go extinct within 10 to 15 years in the Greater Congo Basin, the swath of forest and savanna that stretches from Africa's Atlantic coast across the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) to Rwanda and Uganda in the east.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1975555,00.html

eddie the eagle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I just think being a true vegan takes a lot more effort than being a vegetarian.

yeah but whats your point? its not a competiion

amacachi

seamus wrote: »

In my experience, you never come across a preachy vegetarian. I have never once encountered a vegetarian who has criticised or attacked someone else for eating meat (unless prompted). The stereotype of the crusty, crazy, preachy, feminist vegetarian screaming at anyone who eats meat, simply doesn't exist.

Must be a parallel universe I'm living in so.

Lily10

krudler wrote: »

I'm a member of PETA

People Eating Tasty Animals...

Wowwww that's a new one..

Lily10

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Again, very indignant, but doesn't answer the question of why one death is better than another.

Interesting that you use the word pious, relating to religion, as I consider vegetarianism and veganism to be similar to religions.

Well for starters, one death is done out of selfishness. Why does this subject get you so worked up?

Lily10

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Depends. If someone says hey im a vegetarian & i say how long? And they say...a few months, then i do this - :rolleyes:. If they say well ive been a vegetarian for many years like yourself, i think fair enough, he/she really is a vegetarian.

Being a vegan is probably much much more difficult than being a vegetarian. Is there any point in being a vegetarian? I mean you wearing animal hide clothes, drinking dairy products & using products with animal fats makes you just as much a contributor as a meat eater. I don't see he point. Not unless you simply don't like the taste of animal flesh? If so fair enough but when i see a vegetarian going on like they're trying to save the world i find it....silly.

Of the top of my head I would say there's at least two points to being a vegetarian (and I'm not one)

You live longer and have a smaller carbon foot print. Vegetarians can drive around in huge cars, talk on cell phones use laptops etc.. and still do more for the environment than the meat eater in the electric car.

mickrock

vaalea wrote: »

scientists at Wellcome Research Laboratories in Research Triangle Park, N.C., found a substance in dairy products that looked remarkably like morphine. After a complex series of tests, they determined that, surprisingly enough, it actually was morphine.

So cheese is now the opium of the people.

No wonder they're giving it away for free.

TheUsual

Vegetarians. Vegans.

I love them, bring it on.
More and more of them I say.

Just leaves more beef, pork, eggs, fish and deep dark blood sausages for me.
Yum.

flash1080

****ing hippies

flash1080

Susie_Q wrote: »

I am truly baffled by meat-eaters having a go at vegetarians on here.

I was vegetarian for a few years and I cannot recount the number of times a meat-eater would not only challenge me but outright give out to me for not eating meat. As if I had committed a criminal offence!

I now eat meat but not very often. Truth be told I love vegetables and I love cooking, which means I can make vegetables into an infinite number of different dishes and delights every evening. I probably eat meat once or twice a week and as a result of this I still have people questioning my motives... typical questions thus:

Q: Why don't you eat steak?
A: Because I kind of think a big hunk of beef is boring and gross.

Q: Why do you love vegetables?
A: Because they come in a huge variety, they nourish your body, they are easy to cook and cheap to buy.

Q: But don't you miss meat on the days you eat veggie?
A: No, because I cook hearty meals that keep you full, such as chickpea and spinach curry or three bean chilli with rice.

In my lifetime (which is close on 30 years), I've only come across 2 preachy vegetarians. I was veggie for a few years and at least 20 people (maybe more) openly challenged me on my eating choices. Why?? Surely what I put in my body is my own choice and has no bearing on anyone else?

Q: Why do you eat meat?
A: Because meat comes in a huge variety, it nourishes your body, it is easy to cook and cheap to buy.

Q: Why don't you only eat vegetables?
A: Because I think eating only vegetables is boring and stupid.

Lia_lia

I'm a vegetarian because that's the way I was brought up. Feckin hippy parents! I ate meat for a few years when I was about 17. Didn't like it. Made me feel ill. And I actually like vegetables etc.

Nevermind veganism, there is no way you can be completely vegetarian even. Especially if you eat out a lot. Most restaurants use chicken stock in their vegetable soup. Also in sauces. Chefs don't really give a shit!

menoscemo

Lia_lia wrote: »

I'm a vegetarian And I actually like vegetables etc.

Why are all vegetarians on this thread pointing out that they like vegetables etc? Are they assuming that meat eaters don't like/don't eat fruit and vegetables?
I'm gonna have to point out that most meat eaters eat the vegetarians food as well as their meat. It's called a balanced diet.

Lia_lia

Lots of people I know don't like vegetables. I've had countless people say to me "I could never be a vegetarian because I hate vegetables". I never meant to say that all meat eaters don't eat vegetables, because that's obviously not true.

fonecrusher1

I love vegetables. Especially when they're wrapped in bacon.

flash1080

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I love vegetables. Especially when they're wrapped in bacon.

Vegetables go great with steak.

vaalea

menoscemo wrote: »

Why are all vegetarians on this thread pointing out that they like vegetables etc? Are they assuming that meat eaters don't like/don't eat fruit and vegetables?
I'm gonna have to point out that most meat eaters eat the vegetarians food as well as their meat. It's called a balanced diet.

Why do meat-eaters disdain a vegan meal when it is all food that they otherwise have no issue with eating?
----
Maybe because in our own lives when we were eating meat we actually didn't eat a lot of variety - didn't experiment with less common ingredients or more ethnic food... so going veg just exploded open our menus.

fonecrusher1

flash1080 wrote: »

Vegetables go great with steak.

Roast veg with foie gras is beautiful. Anyone ever taste foie gras? Its scrummy!

menoscemo

Lia_lia wrote: »

Lots of people I know don't like vegetables. I've had countless people say to me "I could never be a vegetarian because I hate vegetables". I never meant to say that all meat eaters don't eat vegetables, because that's obviously not true.

I know vegetarians that hate vegetables too.

fonecrusher1

menoscemo wrote: »

I know vegetarians that hate vegetables too.

Are they very thin?

menoscemo

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Are they very thin?

No

mickrock

Apparently the word vegetarian isn't derived from the word vegetable at all.

It comes from the latin word vegetus meaning "whole, fresh, sound or lively".

I knew of a vegetarian that never ate vegetables. She was training to be a doctor.

vaalea

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Worm manure still can't produce the yield of cow manure now can it? Show me a large scale farm operation that uses it.

Nope not missing the point, I believe no animal should be fed soybeans as their staple food, it makes them fat and sick (same way it makes humans fat and sick). I favour eating grass-fed free-range animals, but you don't seem to have an answer to that, so you drag it back to factory farming, which I to which I have already voiced my opposition. A biodynamic omnivorous diet is FAR more environmentally friendly than the food-mile-laden processed food diets I see most vegetarians subsist on.

You seem to miss the point that soybeans kill more sentient beings than grass-fed cattle farming though. Unless your speciesist and don't think that insect lives matter as much as cows and sheep?

You make the rookie mistake of assuming all land that can be used for rearing animals can be used for crop cultivation. I beg of you to read something besides vegan propaganda.

But money where your mouth is time, give me a daily diet that is:

a) Vegan
b) Replete with all necessary nutrients without supplementation.
c) Completely available without importing any food outside of Ireland (and in season this time of year)

and then I'll believe a vegan diet is sustainable.

Manure from CAFOs or from your grass fed free-range beef you are defending? We have too much livestock manure concentration it is actually an environmental hazard. Large scale farm operations exist to feel large scale CAFO operations.

you say you are not defending CAFO, yet your other arguments are based on defending that. ie soybean growth quantity. Also you ignore that grass-fed beef is unsustainable source for world population... there is not enough grazing land... and you are ignoring again grazing on other species. you are looking at the argument from a little bubble of yours in ireland. Its like people to argue for eating wild game. If EVERYONE said- hey that's great lets still eat meat but lets switch from beef to deer, how long before the world population would wipe out wild game. not long. unsustainable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmeat is an example. I also posted a link about the locavore vs herbivore and environment impact.
Again the insects killed from grazing vs soybean harvest is irrelevant because most soy harvests is fed to cows, and impossible to have same numbers of cows and graze regardless of you considering your diet an exception.

Again organic that uses natural ways to rid of pests rather than insecticides are better for insects and everyone. "Insects are responsible for much of the process by which topsoil is created" so using method that don't mass kill insects is better for the earth. Pesticides are more likely to be used again because of high amounts of crops grown/required for livestock consumption.

Why don't you ask yourself why the organic fertilizers are becoming more expensive.

I'm not assuming that all land that can be used for rearing animals can be used for crop cultivation. I'm assuming that all land that is used for crop cultivation would be better used for human consumption than cattle consumption, and in regard to the land we need to let alone for biodiversity-wildlife it is better not to graze every piece of land that can't be used for crops... and the land that is not suitable for crop cultivation that can be used for grazing cannot sustain the meat demand of the world today either.

You want to me to provide such a meal plan, but are you seriously only eating local meat and vegetables in season here yourself? Unless you are I don't see why I have to provide the most absolutely perfect diet plan otherwise veganism isnt justified - ignoring all the disadvantages of your own diet. It's like saying you won't stop killing animals because it's not possible to do ABSOLUTELY no harm- not possible to live on just air alone, never crushing any insect underfoot. But I'll let the experts handle this one as I've posted before regarding locavore myth published on Forbes. I'm sure the guys at http://www.thehappypear.ie/education/ would be very helpful regarding local food and diet if you were genuinely interested.

Sisko

This thread makes me feel hungry.